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Author Topic: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?  (Read 859 times)

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jbcarol

Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« on: February 07, 2020, 01:53:46 pm »



Quote
MLB career hits leader Pete Rose is still banned from the league for betting on baseball games, but he is petitioning to change that. With the Astros scandal resulting in no similar punishments to his, Rose feels like he should be reinstated. Rose is one of the greatest players of all time and deserves to be recognized. However, he bet on baseball games while he was a manager, and many feel sports gambling is a cardinal sin of the sport—

What Pete Rose did was inexcusable, but it isn’t unforgivable. After almost three decades of punishment, Rose deserves to be reinstated and honored for being the great player he was, especially if no Astros player or manager received a lifetime ban for getting caught stealing...

At the time of his retirement, Rose was the all-time leader in hits, games played, and at-bats. He won three World Series championships, three batting titles, two Gold Gloves and one MVP award. The 17-time All-Star was one of the best...

...

Pete Rose needs to pay for his crimes against baseball. Stealing signs is frowned upon, steroids are dirty, but nothing is more damaging to a sport than a betting scandal involving a player or a coach.

Even if it is technically legal, sports betting while active in the league is the kind of disrespectful stain that should never be glossed over. It is an unforgivable offense, and he deserves to suffer the consequences forever.

After an investigation, Rose accepted permanent placement on the ineligible list in exchange for no formal finding in the inquiry. He continued to deny any wrongdoing until 2004, when he finally admitted to betting on baseball while playing and managing.

His admission puts into question the legitimacy of every game he was involved in.
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hawkhawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2020, 02:56:49 pm »

Even if they did reinstate him, I can't imagine the voters would vote him in.  Maybe after he is dead.
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RazorWire™

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2020, 03:36:41 pm »

If the sign stealers are free to stay in the sport , Pete definitely needs to be in the HOF. My Godness Pete could play the game
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GolfNut57

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2020, 04:07:42 pm »

I wanna say Yes. But if you do then all reasons to not vote Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, and all others who each cheated in whatever way they chose, into the HOF goes out the window. And in turn it turns the HOF into a joke.

Personally I don't care that Rose bet on games. Story goes that he wasn't even betting on his own team or their games so I don't get what the real harm was. So to me what he did is much less serious than what those who used steroids did. And if they can retire and still possibly get votes for the HOF then why shouldn't Pete Rose.

oldman1015

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2020, 07:34:33 am »

Nope, I love to gamble but he knew he couldn’t bet baseball and did anyway. Unforgivable in my opinion. Shoeless Joe says hello.

RazorWire™

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2020, 08:40:04 am »

Nope, I love to gamble but he knew he couldn’t bet baseball and did anyway. Unforgivable in my opinion. Shoeless Joe says hello.
Steroids and Sign stealing wave back ...
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EastexHawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2020, 09:59:57 pm »

Nope, I love to gamble but he knew he couldn’t bet baseball and did anyway. Unforgivable in my opinion. Shoeless Joe says hello.

Shoeless Joe bet on his team to lose the World Series. 

I get why baseball can't allow anyone, especially a manager, to bet on his own team even if he is betting they will win.  Let's say Pete bets on the Reds to win tonight but not tomorrow night.  Does he rest his bullpen tomorrow night but have all hands on deck tonight?  Does he have Johnny Bench catch tonight but take the night off tomorrow while the rookie just up from AAA plays?

Does he leave Tom Seaver in an extra inning tonight just to "be sure" of the win?

I perfectly understand why he was banned, but I think it has been long enough.  Waiting for him to die borders on being spiteful.

Wildhog

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 02:04:59 pm »

Hell yes he should be in the HOF.
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hawkhawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 02:25:24 pm »

Bonds and Clemens were both at about 35% of the vote their first year.  Now eight years later they are at about 60% of the vote.  So it is only a matter of time before they both get in. 
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EastexHawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2020, 02:37:16 pm »

Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis was appointed Commissioner for the sole purpose of saving the game after it became known that the White Sox threw the 1919 World Series for a gambling payoff.  He said that above all the one thing fans have to know is that the game is on the up and up, honest and not fixed.

He was right.  It's what makes real sports different from a movie or wrasslin.

I don't put trying to gain a competitive advantage in the same category as fixing games, or even betting on games as a player or manager.  Pete Rose knew gambling on baseball is the one thing that will get you banned from the game and he did it anyway.  I think he deserved harsh punishment, but I think that has already been exacted.  He's almost 80 years old and enough is enough.  If he had thrown games because he bet against his team I would feel differently.
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BrooklynRoss

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 03:45:30 pm »

I don't see what the big deal was. He never bet against his own team. In fact he bet ON his own team which is kind of more ballsy than anything else.

EastexHawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 04:04:04 pm »

I don't see what the big deal was. He never bet against his own team. In fact he bet ON his own team which is kind of more ballsy than anything else.

Does he manage the same way if he has money on the game?  Does he use his bullpen the same way, rest players the same way?  Over the course of a 162 game season managers don't always do everything the same way in every game.  They might bring up a pitcher and give him a start to give someone's arm a rest, put a key player on the bench so he will be fresher going forward, etc.  I'm not saying they intentionally lose some games, just that they know it is a marathon and that they can't have their best lineup on the field every time.

I just think it's something that can't be allowed, but at the same time I think enough is enough.  Pete has been punished severely for a long time.  I would reinstate him if it was up to me.
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ErieHog

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 04:53:07 pm »

Never.

Not just never, its the worst possible example they could make if they did let him in;  he broke the unbreakable rule of competitive sports.

And there is so much wrong with what he did, that its virtually impossible to sum up in a short fashion-- but the best summary is that his actions and selections of bets undermined the confidence of the open competitiveness and outcomes of his sport, in a fashion that is the most damaging possible.
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OS2 (SW) Razor Back

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2020, 09:34:23 am »

Shoeless Joe bet on his team to lose the World Series. 

I get why baseball can't allow anyone, especially a manager, to bet on his own team even if he is betting they will win.  Let's say Pete bets on the Reds to win tonight but not tomorrow night.  Does he rest his bullpen tomorrow night but have all hands on deck tonight?  Does he have Johnny Bench catch tonight but take the night off tomorrow while the rookie just up from AAA plays?

Does he leave Tom Seaver in an extra inning tonight just to "be sure" of the win?

I perfectly understand why he was banned, but I think it has been long enough.  Waiting for him to die borders on being spiteful.
Shoeless Joe didn't bet on the 1919 WS
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EastexHawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2020, 10:59:36 pm »

Shoeless Joe didn't bet on the 1919 WS

Remember the story of the little kid pleading, "Say it ain't so, Joe"?

Quote
Baseball’s leading figures appeared content to let the 1919 World Series go unexamined, and it largely did until August 31, 1920, when evidence surfaced that gamblers had rigged a regular season game between the Cubs and the Phillies. A grand jury convened to investigate, and speculation soon turned to the previous year’s World Series. Around that same time, gambler Bill Maharg went public with an account of his own involvement in the fix. As the accusations mounted, Eddie Cicotte decided to testify before the grand jury. During a tearful mea culpa, the pitcher admitted involvement in the scandal, saying, “I don’t know why I did it…I needed the money. I had the wife and kids.” Shortly afterwards, star hitter “Shoeless” Joe Jackson testified and admitted to having accepted $5,000 from his teammates. Over the next few days, Lefty Williams and Oscar Felsch also confessed their involvement.

https://www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago
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EastexHawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2020, 11:13:37 pm »

Another article:

Quote
Jackson's signed confession, these Black Sox researchers say, was nothing more than his testimony before a Cook County, Ill., grand jury on Sept. 28, 1920. The whereabouts of that transcript are well known: A copy was given to the Chicago Historical Society by the former law offices of Comiskey's attorney in 1988. In that testimony, Jackson admitted to agreeing to throw the 1919 World Series for $20,000, but said he pocketed only $5,000 in denominations of $50 and $100 bills.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324136204578641990501023144

Maybe "bet" is the wrong word, but he got paid off in the gambling scheme to fix the World Series.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 11:35:00 pm by EastexHawg »
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BrianG

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 11:04:10 am »

I wanna say Yes. But if you do then all reasons to not vote Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, and all others who each cheated in whatever way they chose, into the HOF goes out the window. And in turn it turns the HOF into a joke.

Personally I don't care that Rose bet on games. Story goes that he wasn't even betting on his own team or their games so I don't get what the real harm was. So to me what he did is much less serious than what those who used steroids did. And if they can retire and still possibly get votes for the HOF then why shouldn't Pete Rose.

He did get on the Reds.  He never get on them to lose.  As far as Bonds and Clemens.  These guys were hall of famers before steroids.  They should be in.  McGuire and Sosa were good but I don't think slam dunk Hall.  Palmeiro and Arod should go to.  I think ARod is eligible in '22.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 12:53:10 pm »

No. He never has really changed his attitude or felt like he did anything wrong.
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hawkhawg

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 12:28:03 am »

He did get on the Reds.  He never get on them to lose.  As far as Bonds and Clemens.  These guys were hall of famers before steroids.  They should be in.  McGuire and Sosa were good but I don't think slam dunk Hall.  Palmeiro and Arod should go to.  I think ARod is eligible in '22.

I think attitudes have softened on Arod since his retirement and he gets voted in.

With no first ballot hall of famers in 2021 this could be the year that Bonds or Clemons get in. In 2020 Clemons and Bonds are in their 8th year on the Ballot and both are over 60% of the vote. Only Schilling got more votes then these two.  I think both eventually get in. 

Im not so sure on McGwire and Sosa.  In 2020 Sosa is on his 8th year on the Ballot and only has 13.9% of the vote.
In McGwire's 10th year he got only got 12%.

I don't think Palmerio ever makes it.  Palmeiro only made it to his 4th year (2014) on the Ballot with 4.4% of the vote.
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widespreadsooie

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 01:13:17 am »

Put the man in the HOF unless there's proof of multiple instances of him betting against his team.
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ErieHog

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2020, 02:52:34 pm »

Put the man in the HOF unless there's proof of multiple instances of him betting against his team.

There's one rule that's plastered in giant letters in every major league clubhouse and facility.  It is known as the one rule that is unforgivable to break, even once.

Betting against or for his team doesn't matter-- in fact,  selectively betting his team only in certain games shows just how highly compromising his actions were.

The man doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the Hall of Fame.
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OS2 (SW) Razor Back

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2020, 07:05:48 am »

Remember the story of the little kid pleading, "Say it ain't so, Joe"?

https://www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago

Yes I do. SJJ   didn't   bet  on  the  19  19  WS.
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Piggage

Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2020, 12:35:17 pm »

Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis was appointed Commissioner for the sole purpose of saving the game after it became known that the White Sox threw the 1919 World Series for a gambling payoff.  He said that above all the one thing fans have to know is that the game is on the up and up, honest and not fixed.

A huge reason they HAD to get gambling out of the game at the time was players didn't have the ridiculous salaries they have now. Obviously no TV, not even radio until the 1921 season. Teams did their best to make salaries competitive, but they knew there was no way they could compete with the kind of money a player or manager could make by gambling on the game. So it was a matter of making sure your competition was not just illegal but zero tolerance.
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widespreadsooie

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2020, 12:37:26 pm »

There's one rule that's plastered in giant letters in every major league clubhouse and facility.  It is known as the one rule that is unforgivable to break, even once.

Betting against or for his team doesn't matter-- in fact,  selectively betting his team only in certain games shows just how highly compromising his actions were.

The man doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the Hall of Fame.

I've never heard of this rule and how is betting on your team worse than breaking historical records due to PED use?
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ErieHog

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Re: Should Pete Rose finally be reinstated?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2020, 03:57:54 pm »

I've never heard of this rule and how is betting on your team worse than breaking historical records due to PED use?

Its Rule 21(D)-- it is the only rule that is mandated to be posted prominently in the clubhouse/locker room of every team.
Its posted in letters, in most clubhouses, over a foot high, and has been since the Black Sox scandal.

Betting on your team is *light years* worse than PEDs assault on numbers that have no real meanings independently of that assigned to them as arbitrary markers of history.

The premise of sports is competition;  when you bet on a game, you are compromising that competition-- not only by opening yourself up to being coerced to repay debts, or to gain financial compensation for selective performance,  but also by the nature of your decisions tipping other gamblers.     Even if you bet only on your own team, it provides a decisive advantage to gamblers with that information.    In the confines of competitive sports, its the absolute worst thing you can do.
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