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Author Topic: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....  (Read 5545 times)

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GlassofSwine

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2019, 07:59:31 pm »

I don't know anyone who would consider us an elite program, but Arkansas can recruit at a Top 25 level. We should be able to play at a Top 25 level. We should not be losing to San Jose State or Kentucky playing a WR at QB. This team should be 4-2 with an outside chance at a bowl game. Instead it's doubtful we see another win.

hogsanity

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2019, 08:56:53 pm »

I don't know anyone who would consider us an elite program, but Arkansas can recruit at a Top 25 level. We should be able to play at a Top 25 level. We should not be losing to San Jose State or Kentucky playing a WR at QB. This team should be 4-2 with an outside chance at a bowl game. Instead it's doubtful we see another win.

People just do not get it. 25th is still around 10th or worse in their own league. In 8 sec games, it is likely every year at least 6 of the 8 opponents will be teams that recruit at a higher level, ostensibly having better players. Ooc games aside, that means likely going, at best 4-4 in the sec. Tough to be top 25 with 4 losses. Throw in tough ooc games against the likes of ND, Tx, and other tougher ooc games scheduled, and winning at a top 25 level is not as easy as looking at recruiting rankings

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TXK

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2019, 09:11:52 pm »

All those winning yesteryears were while connected to Texas (for recruiting) and before a&m and missouri joined the sec. the landscape has changed and left Arkansas behind forever

hogbbq

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #153 on: October 15, 2019, 09:21:09 pm »

All those winning yesteryears were while connected to Texas (for recruiting) and before a&m and missouri joined the sec. the landscape has changed and left Arkansas behind forever
Got to broaden the recruiting base if you want to compete.
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GlassofSwine

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #154 on: October 15, 2019, 09:42:25 pm »

People just do not get it. 25th is still around 10th or worse in their own league. In 8 sec games, it is likely every year at least 6 of the 8 opponents will be teams that recruit at a higher level, ostensibly having better players. Ooc games aside, that means likely going, at best 4-4 in the sec. Tough to be top 25 with 4 losses. Throw in tough ooc games against the likes of ND, Tx, and other tougher ooc games scheduled, and winning at a top 25 level is not as easy as looking at recruiting rankings


Last year there were 7 teams with 4 losses that finished in the Top 25 of the AP poll.
There were also 7 teams with 4 losses that finished in the Top 25 of the College Football playoff rankings.
In the SEC 8-12 in the recruiting rankings usually have little difference. Included in that group are normally Missouri, Ole Miss and Miss. State.
Is the SEC easy, no but...

Houston Nutt was over 50% in the SEC basically with a 4-4 SEC avg and he averaged 7.5 wins a season.
Petrino's avg in the SEC was also basically 4-4 but he averaged 8.5 wins a season overall.
Those averages easily would put Arkansas in a 20-30 ranking pretty much every year.

hogsanity

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #155 on: October 15, 2019, 11:37:03 pm »


Last year there were 7 teams with 4 losses that finished in the Top 25 of the AP poll.
There were also 7 teams with 4 losses that finished in the Top 25 of the College Football playoff rankings.
In the SEC 8-12 in the recruiting rankings usually have little difference. Included in that group are normally Missouri, Ole Miss and Miss. State.
Is the SEC easy, no but...

Houston Nutt was over 50% in the SEC basically with a 4-4 SEC avg and he averaged 7.5 wins a season.
Petrino's avg in the SEC was also basically 4-4 but he averaged 8.5 wins a season overall.
Those averages easily would put Arkansas in a 20-30 ranking pretty much every year.



But those were averages. Bp had a 5 win season. Hdn had at least 2 losing seasons. This is NEVER going to be a top 25 EVERY year program. It is going to be what its always been, over any 10 year period it will average 7.5 wins, likely including a couple 9+ win years and a couple 4-5 win years.
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Philip Seaton

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #156 on: October 16, 2019, 01:52:16 am »

The University of Arkansas does not have an elite football program.  Our ALL TIME record against teams that are current SEC members is 171-206.  That's a winning percentage of 45.35%.  Our football program has an all time winning record against the following SEC teams: Mississippi State (16-12), Ole Miss (36-29), South Carolina (13-10) Texas A&M (41-31) and Vanderbilt (7-3). 

Our former Coach, Bret Bielema, had a record of 11-29 in the SEC. That's a winning percentage of 27.5% for the mathematically challenged.  Bret was 0-8 in the SEC in his first year and 1-7 in the  SEC in his last year.  The three years in between were not much better with only ONE year  (5-3) with a winning record in the SEC West. His teams lost to TOLEDO and Rutgers.

My POINT is this.... Most of our fans THINK that we have a great football tradition, but when you look at the numbers, our progam has been VERY average....  So just don't complain about Coach Chad Morris too much.  He's simply carrying on the tradition.

Always love the poor, poor "Arkansaw". Right coach can win, Petrino proved it.

titsonboar

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2019, 02:29:01 am »

Ugly fact- your post sucks
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GTOWNHOG

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2019, 11:34:35 am »

Once upon a time I shot 9 of 9 from the field and 9 of 10 from the stripe and scored 27 pts in a game in school.  That happened once and I didn't ever get close to that night again. 
Arkansas won a title after the fact when the NC lost its bowl game.  They did things differently back then.  So we shared one, then we haven't been there again and in the last 25 we really have only been good a few seasons. 
We don't have a winner mentality and we don't have the will or leadership to get into position to be big time.

Agreed. Things are a lot different since we left the old SWC.  I recall when Arkansas would play an SEC team in a Bowl game back then.  More often than not, we came out on the short end of the score.  Looking back, we played SEC teams 16 times in Bowl games (if you include Georgia Tech, who left the SEC in 1964). We won 4, lost 11, and tied 1.  That's a 25% winning percentage.  Also, since these were bowl games most of the Arkansas teams were very good in those years.  Since 1992, we have had a few seasons that were enjoyable, but nothing really outstanding.
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Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2019, 11:36:41 am »

Always love the poor, poor "Arkansaw". Right coach can win, Petrino proved it.

No. A special in state 2008 recruiting class and a Ryan Mallett followed by a Tyler Wilson falling in your lap proved Petrino could win.

What about Houston Nutt? His 75 wins in 10 years, 7.5 a year win average, two sec title game appearances, division titles didn't prove you can win in Arkansas?

Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2019, 11:39:20 am »

Got to broaden the recruiting base if you want to compete.

Tell people to hit parts of Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan and they will look at you like you have a third eye ball.

GTOWNHOG

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2019, 11:39:40 am »

Right coach can win, Petrino proved it.

I am just pointing out facts.  Actually, I AGREE with you.  The right Coach could build a powerhouse at Arkansas.  Unfortunately, we have YET to locate a Coach to fill that role.  And, Petrino was a flash in the pan. In my opinion, he would not have stayed much longer at Arkansas even without the blonde and the motorcycle.

hogsanity

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2019, 11:40:36 am »

Always love the poor, poor "Arkansaw". Right coach can win, Petrino proved it.

I love how people act like no one had ever won games here before BP. JFB, Holtz, Hatfield, HDN all won here. Winning here is not the question, winning CONSISTENTLY is.  What gives BP this mystique is that he didn't hang around long enough to see if he would have reverted to the program average or not.

Most people here did not like HDN by the end, and think he was a horrible coach. Well, fine, if a horrible coach can have a 10 win and a couple 9 win seasons, then I think that proves ANYONE can win here. Again, though, that has never been the argument from me. I just do not think it is ever going to be a " in the top 25 at the end of the season every year " type of program.

HogJamesHog

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2019, 11:53:04 am »

My take is that we are all tired of being elite...elite-ly terrible.  Vandy and Kentucky were the laughing stocks of the SEC, and now we are every Sunbelt and MWC's dream opponent.  On the bright side too much more of this, and we can be the team that gets payed to play.
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Grizzlyfan

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #164 on: October 16, 2019, 11:56:40 am »

I wonder if we could get Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson as co head coaches?  so they could each have a chance for an afternoon nap.
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Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2019, 11:57:59 am »

I wonder if we could get Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson as co head coaches?  so they could each have a chance for an afternoon nap.

Someone said on here that Jimmy would love to come back and lead this team as a consultant because of his "soft spot" in his heart for Arkansas.

LOL....Meanwhile on the golf course in Miami.........
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2019, 03:10:43 pm »

That excuse carries no weight. Morris is not recruiting on Friday nights. He is dressed in blue and gold watching his son play.
He's recruiting while he's watching his son play. He one of the few coaches in the country that can do that. But carry on then...
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2019, 03:14:45 pm »

If Morris never moved the fam to Fayetteville...is it safe to say he never even really bought into his own hiring?  Did he think he would coach at Arkansas 3 years, get us to 6-6 and then go back home to Texas to sign a big coaching contract at Baylor or A&M or wherever?
So you're saying that Arkansas should've been his first choice over Baylor and Texas A&M?
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hogbbq

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #168 on: October 16, 2019, 03:25:02 pm »

So you're saying that Arkansas should've been his first choice over Baylor and Texas A&M?
It's obvious he took a job he wasn't fully invested in. If he wanted to stay in Texas he should have stayed instead of making a bad situation at Arkansas a worse situation.

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #169 on: October 16, 2019, 03:30:12 pm »

The University of Arkansas does not have an elite football program.  Our ALL TIME record against teams that are current SEC members is 171-206.  That's a winning percentage of 45.35%.  Our football program has an all time winning record against the following SEC teams: Mississippi State (16-12), Ole Miss (36-29), South Carolina (13-10) Texas A&M (41-31) and Vanderbilt (7-3). 

Our former Coach, Bret Bielema, had a record of 11-29 in the SEC. That's a winning percentage of 27.5% for the mathematically challenged.  Bret was 0-8 in the SEC in his first year and 1-7 in the  SEC in his last year.  The three years in between were not much better with only ONE year  (5-3) with a winning record in the SEC West. His teams lost to TOLEDO and Rutgers.

My POINT is this.... Most of our fans THINK that we have a great football tradition, but when you look at the numbers, our progam has been VERY average....  So just don't complain about Coach Chad Morris too much.  He's simply carrying on the tradition.

Still shouldn't get blown out by north Texas at home

Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2019, 03:31:35 pm »

It's obvious he took a job he wasn't fully invested in. If he wanted to stay in Texas he should have stayed instead of making a bad situation at Arkansas a worse situation.

That has always been my thought. Why leave the wife and kid in Texas if he wasn't fully invested? Seems like a safe way to fail...then go right back to texas in his home like none of this ever happened.

But but but his kid wanted to be with  his friends at Highland park. Well suck it up buttercup, daddy has a big boy job and you can play at Fayetteville, Bentonville or Shiloh Christian like one of petrino's son's did.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2019, 03:43:52 pm »

That has always been my thought. Why leave the wife and kid in Texas if he wasn't fully invested? Seems like a safe way to fail...then go right back to texas in his home like none of this ever happened.

But but but his kid wanted to be with  his friends at Highland park. Well suck it up buttercup, daddy has a big boy job and you can play at Fayetteville, Bentonville or Shiloh Christian like one of petrino's son's did.
We talking about little petrino that ended up at Arkansas Tech and then walked on at Arkansas or the one that didnt play any college football?
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Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2019, 03:45:04 pm »

We talking about little petrino that ended up at Arkansas Tech and then walked on at Arkansas or the one that didnt play any college football?

Maybe, but he would get the same recruiting attention at Shiloh, Fayetteville, Bentonville, of hell even Warren if he is as good as advertised.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2019, 03:50:29 pm »

Maybe, but he would get the same recruiting attention at Shiloh, Fayetteville, Bentonville, of hell even Warren if he is as good as advertised.
No doubt... but who wouldnt wanna stay with their friends, play for a big time school, and try and win another state title... I know being an Army brat I never wanted to leave my life behind... and my dad probably wouldnt have made me if it would have been during my high school days..

Pennywise

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2019, 03:54:56 pm »

No doubt... but who wouldnt wanna stay with their friends, play for a big time school, and try and win another state title... I know being an Army brat I never wanted to leave my life behind... and my dad probably wouldnt have made me if it would have been during my high school days..

Fair enough, Your perspective is in tune because you did move in to warren from somewhere else. But God's country welcomed you in wonderfully. lol
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #175 on: October 16, 2019, 04:00:50 pm »

Fair enough, Your perspective is in tune because you did move in to warren from somewhere else. But God's country welcomed you in wonderfully. lol
Warren will always be gods country to me!
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hogbbq

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #176 on: October 16, 2019, 04:12:31 pm »

No doubt... but who wouldnt wanna stay with their friends, play for a big time school, and try and win another state title... I know being an Army brat I never wanted to leave my life behind... and my dad probably wouldnt have made me if it would have been during my high school days..
Then the solution was simple for a person who can make decisions.  Of course we have discovered that Chad Morris can't make decisions worth a darn.   The answer was, stay at SMU, keep your staff at SMU.  Wait until your son has completed his high school career and then move to your next coaching position if you would have had one coming after two more years at SMU.   
The next time Arkansas hires a coach, and lets hope it's really soon, make sure they are fully bought in and are bringing their family with them.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #177 on: October 16, 2019, 04:16:57 pm »

Then the solution was simple for a person who can make decisions.  Of course we have discovered that Chad Morris can't make decisions worth a darn.   The answer was, stay at SMU, keep your staff at SMU.  Wait until your son has completed his high school career and then move to your next coaching position if you would have had one coming after two more years at SMU.   
The next time Arkansas hires a coach, and lets hope it's really soon, make sure they are fully bought in and are bringing their family with them.
id imagine hes regretting the Arkansas job by the minute.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #178 on: October 16, 2019, 04:17:47 pm »

It's obvious he took a job he wasn't fully invested in. If he wanted to stay in Texas he should have stayed instead of making a bad situation at Arkansas a worse situation.
So you always get your first choice and your second choice in everything you do?
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hogbbq

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #179 on: October 16, 2019, 04:24:09 pm »

id imagine hes regretting the Arkansas job by the minute.
I sincerely hope so because Arkansas is sure regretting Chad Morris.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #180 on: October 16, 2019, 04:25:08 pm »

I sincerely hope so because Arkansas is sure regretting Chad Morris.
I truly think morris thought this was gonna be a cupcake to turn around... he didnt do his homework... and neither did Arkansas.
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IceColdMintJulep

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #181 on: October 16, 2019, 04:27:28 pm »

This conversation is borderline erotic  :P
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fraction_of_blue

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #182 on: October 16, 2019, 04:29:12 pm »

The University of Arkansas does not have an elite football program.  Our ALL TIME record against teams that are current SEC members is 171-206.  That's a winning percentage of 45.35%.  Our football program has an all time winning record against the following SEC teams: Mississippi State (16-12), Ole Miss (36-29), South Carolina (13-10) Texas A&M (41-31) and Vanderbilt (7-3). 

Our former Coach, Bret Bielema, had a record of 11-29 in the SEC. That's a winning percentage of 27.5% for the mathematically challenged.  Bret was 0-8 in the SEC in his first year and 1-7 in the  SEC in his last year.  The three years in between were not much better with only ONE year  (5-3) with a winning record in the SEC West. His teams lost to TOLEDO and Rutgers.

My POINT is this.... Most of our fans THINK that we have a great football tradition, but when you look at the numbers, our progam has been VERY average....  So just don't complain about Coach Chad Morris too much.  He's simply carrying on the tradition.

So, the point of your post is to say that we shouldn't complain about Chad Morris,  even though he is about to hand us the two worst seasons in razorback history,  because the razorbacks have never been all that good statistically.  I am trying to find a logical reason why this isn't the dumbest post I have ever seen - but I can't do it.
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hogbbq

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #183 on: October 16, 2019, 06:50:46 pm »

So you always get your first choice and your second choice in everything you do?
Of course not but I don't typically drop to #66. 
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Justifiable Hogicide

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #184 on: October 16, 2019, 06:55:26 pm »

Think about Chad's $$ per SEC win.  You cannot calculate that. 
He makes John Dillinger look like a rank amateur.
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Texasfan7

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2019, 08:05:04 pm »

Carry the math a little further and check the record against SWC schools.
Baylor                     35  33  3  .514
Houston                  12   6   0  .667
Rice                        35  29  2  .545
SMU                        37  31  5  .541
Texas                      22  56  0  .282
Texas A&M               41  32  3  .559
TCU                        44  22  2  .662
Texas Tech               29   8  0  .784

Total                      255 217 14 .538

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GlassofSwine

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2019, 08:51:16 pm »

But those were averages. Bp had a 5 win season. Hdn had at least 2 losing seasons. This is NEVER going to be a top 25 EVERY year program. It is going to be what its always been, over any 10 year period it will average 7.5 wins, likely including a couple 9+ win years and a couple 4-5 win years.

We are talking averages. No one expects that Arkansas will always be ranked in the Top 25 at the end of the year. However, Nutt won 8+ games 60% of the time. 8-4 is good enough to receive votes and be in the conversation. Only 2 years out of Nutt's ten did he fail to have a winning record. So let's start here, I refuse to expect less than Houston Nutt level performance. That should be the baseline, that doesn't make us elite either. That makes us the 6th to 8th ranked team in the SEC on an avg year and considering the SEC normally has 6 teams in the Top 25 I don't think that is a high expectation. I'm actually baffled that you would seem to expect less than that.
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Sweet Feet

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2019, 12:47:23 am »

The University of Arkansas does not have an elite football program.  Our ALL TIME record against teams that are current SEC members is 171-206.  That's a winning percentage of 45.35%.  Our football program has an all time winning record against the following SEC teams: Mississippi State (16-12), Ole Miss (36-29), South Carolina (13-10) Texas A&M (41-31) and Vanderbilt (7-3). 

Our former Coach, Bret Bielema, had a record of 11-29 in the SEC. That's a winning percentage of 27.5% for the mathematically challenged.  Bret was 0-8 in the SEC in his first year and 1-7 in the  SEC in his last year.  The three years in between were not much better with only ONE year  (5-3) with a winning record in the SEC West. His teams lost to TOLEDO and Rutgers.

My POINT is this.... Most of our fans THINK that we have a great football tradition, but when you look at the numbers, our progam has been VERY average....  So just don't complain about Coach Chad Morris too much.  He's simply carrying on the tradition.

The perception and expectation of Arkansas football is influenced by the success in the Southwest Conference. The Southwest Conference was incredibly weaker than the SEC then and now by comparison. Arkansas had the luxury of only being concerned about Texas most years and that's it. The rest were annually terrible or mediocre most years, which padded Arkansas's wins and chances at a conference title and major bowl. The addition of Conference title games in the SEC made it no easier.

The uglier facts are this: Arkansas is 22-34-4 vs the SEC before joining, 1-6-1 vs the Big 10, 3-6-1  vs the Pac 12, 0-4 vs the ACC, and 0-2 vs the Big East. They still own a 25-8 record vs the Big 8 (19-4 vs Oklahoma St) and 10-6 Big 12 record.

In the postseason, Arkansas is 15-24-3 in bowl games. In the Sugar, Orange, and Cotton Bowl (1946-89 when it was one of the 4 major new year bowls), Arkansas is a combined 4-10-1. The last major bowl win was 1977.

From 1969 to now, Arkansas has only won 11 bowl games. To put that in comparison -

-Alabama has won 11 in Nick Saban's tenure alone
-Auburn has won 11 since 1997
-LSU has won 11 since 2001
-Texas A&M won 11 since 1981
-Ole Miss has won 11 since 1992
-Miss St has won 11 since 1974
-Georgia has won 11 since 2003
-Florida has won 11 since 1998
-Tennessee has won 11 since 1992
-Missouri has won 11 since 1973

Kentucky, South Carolina, and Vanderbilt are the only ones that have done worse considering they have less than 11 bowl wins.

EastArkHog 47

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #188 on: October 17, 2019, 05:36:15 am »


Carry the math a little further and check the record against SWC schools.
Baylor                     35  33  3  .514
Houston                  12   6   0  .667
Rice                        35  29  2  .545
SMU                        37  31  5  .541
Texas                      22  56  0  .282
Texas A&M               41  32  3  .559
TCU                        44  22  2  .662
Texas Tech               29   8  0  .784

Total                      255 217 14 .538


You shouldn't count A&M or Missouri bowl wins for years they were in the B12 and SEC.
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EastArkHog 47

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #189 on: October 17, 2019, 05:42:38 am »

Arkansas was 41-24-3 against the Aggies before they entered the SEC, Missouri held a 2-1 record over the Hogs before joining the SEC. Another note, Frank Broyles winning percentage in the SWC was .708 according to sports-reference.com
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hogsanity

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2019, 10:00:45 am »

We are talking averages. No one expects that Arkansas will always be ranked in the Top 25 at the end of the year. However, Nutt won 8+ games 60% of the time. 8-4 is good enough to receive votes and be in the conversation. Only 2 years out of Nutt's ten did he fail to have a winning record. So let's start here, I refuse to expect less than Houston Nutt level performance. That should be the baseline, that doesn't make us elite either. That makes us the 6th to 8th ranked team in the SEC on an avg year and considering the SEC normally has 6 teams in the Top 25 I don't think that is a high expectation. I'm actually baffled that you would seem to expect less than that.

I dont expect less than that, ON AVERAGE. On AVERAGE ( I look at 10 year spans ) I expect the program to average 7 wins per season.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #191 on: October 17, 2019, 11:24:32 am »

No. A special in state 2008 recruiting class and a Ryan Mallett followed by a Tyler Wilson falling in your lap proved Petrino could win.

What about Houston Nutt? His 75 wins in 10 years, 7.5 a year win average, two sec title game appearances, division titles didn't prove you can win in Arkansas?
I agree with you on Houston Nutt.
I have always said a 'good' coach can win at the level Nutt did at Arkansas. He was definitely a good coach, and an elite motivator.
To win at a higher level, I have always said, requires an elite coach. Good isn't good enough, to win big at Arkansas requires an outstanding coach.
In my mind, Broyles and Petrino were 'elite'.

So I will differ with you on Petrino.
The 2008 class was good, but was it really better than the DMac/Felix/Hillis/Monk group that Nutt had? Or how about the B Allen/H Henry/A Collins group Bielema had?
I don't think so.
Petrino was a genius offensive mind. His brain powered the Arkansas offense more than anything.
Tyler Wilson did not fall into his lap. He was headed to Tulsa.
He along with Chris Gragg and others are great examples of marginal recruits who looked great playing in Petrino's offense.
They weren't highly ranked in high school. Decent offers, but not great.
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hogsanity

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #192 on: October 17, 2019, 11:37:25 am »

I agree with you on Houston Nutt.
I have always said a 'good' coach can win at the level Nutt did at Arkansas. He was definitely a good coach, and an elite motivator.
To win at a higher level, I have always said, requires an elite coach. Good isn't good enough, to win big at Arkansas requires an outstanding coach.
In my mind, Broyles and Petrino were 'elite'.

So I will differ with you on Petrino.
The 2008 class was good, but was it really better than the DMac/Felix/Hillis/Monk group that Nutt had? Or how about the B Allen/H Henry/A Collins group Bielema had?
I don't think so.
Petrino was a genius offensive mind. His brain powered the Arkansas offense more than anything.
Tyler Wilson did not fall into his lap. He was headed to Tulsa.
He along with Chris Gragg and others are great examples of marginal recruits who looked great playing in Petrino's offense.
They weren't highly ranked in high school. Decent offers, but not great.

The Nutt and BP classes you comapre both were far above average for what this state normally produces AND both fit those respective coaches styles perfectly. Nutt got a bruising talented Fb, and a absolute freak in Dmac, plus some very good linemen, and solid defenders. Bp got a big armed Qb and wr's for him to throw to.
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GlassofSwine

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #193 on: October 17, 2019, 01:00:24 pm »

I dont expect less than that, ON AVERAGE. On AVERAGE ( I look at 10 year spans ) I expect the program to average 7 wins per season.

So you expect less than Houston Nutt who averaged 7.5 over 10 years.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #194 on: October 17, 2019, 02:24:52 pm »

The Nutt and BP classes you comapre both were far above average for what this state normally produces AND both fit those respective coaches styles perfectly. Nutt got a bruising talented Fb, and a absolute freak in Dmac, plus some very good linemen, and solid defenders. Bp got a big armed Qb and wr's for him to throw to.
Yea, I would agree with that. A guy like Dmac is once a lifetime maybe.
Nutt was able to win 10 games with his group. Petrino was able to win 10, then 11 the next year after Mallett left.
That, to me, points out that Petrino was a little bit better than Nutt. Not light years better, just better. He squeezed a little more out from his teams. And this is coming from a Nutt fan.

My main contention was that 'Tyler Wilson fell into BP's lap'.
He wasn't even highly recruited.
Your post was making it out like this NFL QB accidentally stumbled into Fayetteville and how lucky that was for BP.
BP made him a great college QB, and his brain drove the offense, moreso than the guys on the field.
Wilson, much to my surprise, couldn't even make the Raiders after being drafted in the 4th round.
Even more evidence that Petrino made Tyler Wilson---Tyler Wilson didn't make Bobby Petrino.

Furthermore, regardless of what the players were, they always have options and they didn't have to come here.
So, full credit to Nutt for recruiting McFadden, Jones, Hillis, Monk, etc.
Full credit to Petrino for convincing Mallett, Adams, Wright, etc.
They could have went elsewhere.

Nobody 'lucked' into anything.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #195 on: October 17, 2019, 02:30:26 pm »

All those winning yesteryears were while connected to Texas (for recruiting) and before a&m and missouri joined the sec. the landscape has changed and left Arkansas behind forever
It's not forever doom and second-tier status behind A&M (although they've now won 8 in a row over us). We can recover from this slump.

But, I just wanted to point out there were quite a few people here saying A&M joining the SEC was somehow going to HELP Arkansas.

Exhibit B of my long-standing observation, which is: take a common or prevailing sentiment on Hogville, then do the opposite, and you'll actually be closer to the truth.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #196 on: October 17, 2019, 02:35:35 pm »

I love how people act like no one had ever won games here before BP. JFB, Holtz, Hatfield, HDN all won here. Winning here is not the question, winning CONSISTENTLY is.  What gives BP this mystique is that he didn't hang around long enough to see if he would have reverted to the program average or not.

Most people here did not like HDN by the end, and think he was a horrible coach. Well, fine, if a horrible coach can have a 10 win and a couple 9 win seasons, then I think that proves ANYONE can win here. Again, though, that has never been the argument from me. I just do not think it is ever going to be a " in the top 25 at the end of the season every year " type of program.

-->Most people here did not like HDN by the end, and think he was a horrible coach. Well, fine, if a horrible coach can have a 10 win and a couple 9 win seasons, then I think that proves ANYONE can win here.  -->

This is Exhibit A to the HognitiveDissonance Collorary:

Take a common or prevailing sentiment on Hogville, do the opposite, and you'll be closer to the truth.

Exhibit A: Houston Nutt, as you pointed out.

We're now in the worst period of suckage in Arkansas football history. Yet back then every other post was about how bad Houston Nutt was, and he had the program mired in mediocrity. One would think, after 10 years of wandering in the football desert, if not outright sucking like now, there would be much re-considering of that notion, and how stupid it was. These people don't understand college football, and particularly Arkansas football. I knew even back then, that although Nutt wasn't the absolute best we could do, he was doing darn well to win at the rate he was, in this hyper-competitive league. I didn't need years of sucking to know that.

But I'm just ahead of most people, I guess (sigh)
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #197 on: October 17, 2019, 02:41:56 pm »

I'll now point out what I think is Exhibit C.

The prevailing sentiment right now is Chad Morris is as good as gone.

Pay no attention to the pitchfork-carrying mob. Again, do the opposite of the prevailing sentiment, as expressed on Hogville, that is.

I will not say Chad will hit a home run. But I'm fully confident making a head coaching change after two years would be a huge mistake. Furthermore, it wouldn't even be fair.

To give a guy a real, true, fair opportunity he must have 5 years. A bare minimum of 3.

I want to see what Morris's team looks like after the 4th year. The schedule is very tough next year. So I'm pointing to Year 4. All Chad players, all Chad's program.

Then we can evaluate him.
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Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #198 on: October 17, 2019, 03:06:21 pm »

I'll now point out what I think is Exhibit C.

The prevailing sentiment right now is Chad Morris is as good as gone.

Pay no attention to the pitchfork-carrying mob. Again, do the opposite of the prevailing sentiment, as expressed on Hogville, that is.

I will not say Chad will hit a home run. But I'm fully confident making a head coaching change after two years would be a huge mistake. Furthermore, it wouldn't even be fair.

To give a guy a real, true, fair opportunity he must have 5 years. A bare minimum of 3.

I want to see what Morris's team looks like after the 4th year. The schedule is very tough next year. So I'm pointing to Year 4. All Chad players, all Chad's program.

Then we can evaluate him.

That rationale sounds like you should have left John L in the job for 5 years.  Why not he had been a college Head Coach, he has a winning record all time and when he came to Arkanasas his precentage of wins was better than Chad's.   
Some things just seem to tell you early to switch, Chad is one of those things.
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Hogwild

Re: Maybe we should face some ugly facts....
« Reply #199 on: October 17, 2019, 04:25:24 pm »

People just do not get it. 25th is still around 10th or worse in their own league.

I know you were referring to recruiting, but actually with regard to the contests, bowls,  and rankings.

14 SEC teams

The Big 6, the only teams to win the SEC in the past 50 years, will have at least 4, usually 5 ranked, throughout the season.  Tennessee has been the team on the outside looking in.
Alabama, LSU, Florida, Auburn, and Georgia have combined to win 11 National Championship this century (18 years).  Georgia is the only one of the big 6 not to win a title in the past 25 years, but did play in one.  Tennessee is the only one of the six not to lose in the National Championship game in the past 25 years.

On the opposite extreme is Vanderbilt. They have 4 bowl wins in their 129 year history, Franklin won 2 of them in consecutive years.  The current coach is in his six season, has yet to have a winning season, but he has beaten Tennessee 3 years in a row so he's been safe.

That leaves the 7 other SEC teams.  4 in the West and 3 in the East.

Each season three of those 7 schools will join the five of the teams from the first grouping, and be the top 8 in the SEC. With a bowl win any of the 8 would finish the season ranked. We were one of those teams under Nutt & BP, lately we have been far from it. 

I just don't see why we can't be on the upper half of a grouping that consists of
Kentucky, Mizzou, Ole Miss, Miss State, South Carolina, and A&M
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