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Author Topic: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs  (Read 3242 times)

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IronMountainHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2019, 04:39:28 pm »

They're borderline Top 5.  I'd personally put them at 7, due to a lack of a deep history of a Carolina type, and too few national  titles.

They've been remarkably good, though, since '89.   They weren't at our level at the time of our peak, but they've blown by us in the 20+ years since.   We hang our hat on one title and a title game appearance-- and they've done that and more, with greater recency.


Duke, N Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona, Gonzaga, Syracuse, Michigan State, Villanova, Louisville, UConn, Florida. You are gonna go they are top 5 or just outside these programs? LOL

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2019, 04:54:48 pm »

I wish the past had a zip code.  I'd send some of y'all living there a Christmas card.

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UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2019, 05:08:56 pm »

I recognize you and others are laser focused on the last 15 years, and thatís fine. But, from a historical perspective when you are considered as top 10 when this was done, that deserves more than ďgoodĒ. It wasnít done by looking through the eyes of a homer either. My guess would be if I had asked you where Arkansas was in that survey you would not have guessed Arkansas in the top 30. At the time this survey was done it was
1. Kentucky
2. UCLA
3. UNC
4. Kansas
5. Duke
6. Indiana
7. Louisville
8. Arkansas
9. UConn
10. Cincinnati
Thatís a bit better than ďgoodĒ.

Hey...you know what...that is just great but I cannot remember and I bet you have no idea without Google...when was the last time we were ranked pre-season? How bout end of the year? I cannot remember because it was most likely when Nolan was coaching.
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raz1965

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2019, 05:49:41 pm »

Either team can be great, coaches make the difference, Michigan lost a great coach, hopefully Arkansas has made a great hire an Arkansas becomes great again.
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husker71

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2019, 05:51:20 pm »

I dont understand the laser focused on the last 15 years comment because I thought the original question was which program is better right now.  If that is not the question AND we can go back in time lets go all the way back to CCNY in the 50s and San Francisco of the late 50s.  I think the Michigan job is a good one because Izzo at Mich St is not getting any younger and if someone like Howard can get some of the talent out of Detroit suburbs and Flint they will always be a contender to get to the final 4.

Smithian

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2019, 05:52:49 pm »

We all loved that survey that put Arkansas in the top ten, but Arkansas has now been underwhelming for a couple decades. That isn't a short period of time.

And, also since that poll, Michigan has made five Sweet Sixteens and two Championship games. That type of decade bumps up your program.

HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2019, 06:19:19 pm »

We all loved that survey that put Arkansas in the top ten, but Arkansas has now been underwhelming for a couple decades. That isn't a short period of time.

And, also since that poll, Michigan has made five Sweet Sixteens and two Championship games. That type of decade bumps up your program.

If you will go back and look at my comments, I acknowledge that the last 15 years we have done nothing. No question about it. But, the point being that our program has a firm history of excellence in basketball acknowledged by more than a bunch of local advocates. It is indeed that history that should inspire our administrators and coaches to return our program to a nationally respected program. One that should be able to compete at the highest level.

Iím not sure what the argument is, other than the idea that some apparently wanted to refer to our history as ďgoodĒ. I provided evidence to support the idea that we are known historically as better than a good program. You guys arguing that the last 15 years have been bad are correct. You are spot on. Those who donít know the entire history of the program might want to go back and review it a bit.

The history of the program is one reason many of us have been disappointed in the mediocre at best results the past decade or so. It can and should be nationally competitive given our history, resources, and conference affiliation. Itís my hope that CEM can return us to that level over the next few years. For those who donít think itís possible via a number of ďexcusesĒ, I respectfully disagree.
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LRHog357

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2019, 07:05:34 pm »

[quote author=HogCzar1 link=topic=681826.msg12111124#msg12111124
The history of the program is one reason many of us have been disappointed in the mediocre at best results the past decade or so. It can and should be nationally competitive given our history, resources, and conference affiliation. Itís my hope that CEM can return us to that level over the next few years. For those who donít think itís possible via a number of ďexcusesĒ, I respectfully disagree.
[/quote]

Decade meaning 10 or so years?  This is the two worlds Nolan spoke of.  This program has been in a decline for well over 20 years but let's  focus on a 10 year period that I will admit wish we went further in the tournament but it was not a terrible as some of the posters here make it seem. 

I find it odd that many here that lambasted the NBA game is happy now that we're going to run an NBA style offense just like no worries about a coach that said no zone even though Mike was grilled over that philosophy, and can't forget about the one knock Nevada fans had about CEM teams was that at times teams would just be more physical.

I truly want CEM to be successful here but I also want him to be held to the same standards as the former coach.

UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2019, 07:07:40 pm »

Decade meaning 10 or so years?  This is the two worlds Nolan spoke of.  This program has been in a decline for well over 20 years but let's  focus on a 10 year period that I will admit wish we went further in the tournament but it was not a terrible as some of the posters here make it seem. 

I find it odd that many here that lambasted the NBA game is happy now that we're going to run an NBA style offense just like no worries about a coach that said no zone even though Mike was grilled over that philosophy, and can't forget about the one knock Nevada fans had about CEM teams was that at times teams would just be more physical.

I truly want CEM to be successful here but I also want him to be held to the same standards as the former coach.

https://redstormsports.com/index.aspx?path=mbball

LRHog357

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2019, 07:16:10 pm »

https://redstormsports.com/index.aspx?path=mbball

So you don't find the contradictory dialogue by some "fans" amusing?

Do you have any concerns about a coach that plays no zone? 

Does it concern you that we're going to be shooting way more three's? 

Do you have any worries about teams being more physical than us?  That was the only knock by most Wolfpack fans.

Or does me asking those questions while saying ease up on a man that truly didn't damage the university make me a fan of the person and not the program?
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UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2019, 07:20:51 pm »

So you don't find the contradictory dialogue by some "fans" amusing?

Do you have any concerns about a coach that plays no zone? 

Does it concern you that we're going to be shooting way more three's? 

Do you have any worries about teams being more physical than us?  That was the only knock by most Wolfpack fans.

Or does me asking those questions while saying ease up on a man that truly didn't damage the university make me a fan of the person and not the program?

Do you live in the Twilight Zone?

Do you realize this is a thread about John Beilein leaving Michigan?

Do you realize in 50+ posts in this thread you are the first to make it about Muss
and to bring up MA?

We all know ya can't quit him...let it go man...he gone.

Smithian

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2019, 07:41:30 pm »

No idea where Anderson came from, but I'm happy with Musselman. Michigan is either going to have to overpay for an established head coach, give Billy Donovan a fortune, or risk an up and comer.

I'll be surprised if Michigan at this point in the cycle gets a hire for less than $4.5+ million that is as good or better than Musselman on paper.

ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2019, 08:08:13 pm »

If you will go back and look at my comments, I acknowledge that the last 15 years we have done nothing. No question about it. But, the point being that our program has a firm history of excellence in basketball acknowledged by more than a bunch of local advocates. It is indeed that history that should inspire our administrators and coaches to return our program to a nationally respected program. One that should be able to compete at the highest level.

Iím not sure what the argument is, other than the idea that some apparently wanted to refer to our history as ďgoodĒ. I provided evidence to support the idea that we are known historically as better than a good program. You guys arguing that the last 15 years have been bad are correct. You are spot on. Those who donít know the entire history of the program might want to go back and review it a bit.

The history of the program is one reason many of us have been disappointed in the mediocre at best results the past decade or so. It can and should be nationally competitive given our history, resources, and conference affiliation. Itís my hope that CEM can return us to that level over the next few years. For those who donít think itís possible via a number of ďexcusesĒ, I respectfully disagree.


No, it's definitely 'good'-- but it isn't great, or elite.    That's what spending 20 years completely off, and 23 years now if you include the falling off do for you-- that's not a blip in program history.  Its right at a quarter of it, on its own.

So yeah,  people that treat this like its 1995....sober up.

LRHog357

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2019, 08:41:02 pm »

Do you live in the Twilight Zone?

Do you realize this is a thread about John Beilein leaving Michigan?

Do you realize in 50+ posts in this thread you are the first to make it about Muss
and to bring up MA?

We all know ya can't quit him...let it go man...he gone.


In the famous words of Steven A Smith " I don't give a damn about Beilein going to the Cavs".

I saw a back handed comment and I took the bait but anywho back to debating who's better UA or UM

You should come over to the Facebook page.
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2019, 08:43:08 pm »

Not sure who is treating this like 1995.
We have been a nationally respected program before.
We can be again.

UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2019, 08:48:19 pm »


In the famous words of Steven A Smith " I don't give a damn about Beilein going to the Cavs".

I saw a back handed comment and I took the bait but anywho back to debating who's better UA or UM

You should come over to the Facebook page.

Then don't respond to threads about Beilein

Back handed comment? All I saw was HogCzar1 hoping Muss could get us back to where most believe the program should be. Seems you see every positive post about the future as an indictment of MA and you have some patholigical need to defend him.

I have no idea what facebook page you are referring to but I'll pass if it is inhabited by those of your ilk.

TheRazorbackGuy

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2019, 09:03:25 pm »

So you don't find the contradictory dialogue by some "fans" amusing?

Do you have any concerns about a coach that plays no zone? 

Does it concern you that we're going to be shooting way more three's? 

Do you have any worries about teams being more physical than us?  That was the only knock by most Wolfpack fans.

Or does me asking those questions while saying ease up on a man that truly didn't damage the university make me a fan of the person and not the program?
This is fitting for you below....


https://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?board=1.0

kingofdequeen

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2019, 09:07:35 am »

so no one thinks it's weird beilein is leaving a blueblood for a lebron-less cavs team?

it's not hard to figure out.  something will come out soon.
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psooie

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2019, 09:29:39 am »

Michigan has some excellent assistants that might need jobs after the change

onebadrubi

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2019, 09:51:39 am »

I recognize you and others are laser focused on the last 15 years, and thatís fine. But, from a historical perspective when you are considered as top 10 when this was done, that deserves more than ďgoodĒ. It wasnít done by looking through the eyes of a homer either. My guess would be if I had asked you where Arkansas was in that survey you would not have guessed Arkansas in the top 30. At the time this survey was done it was
1. Kentucky
2. UCLA
3. UNC
4. Kansas
5. Duke
6. Indiana
7. Louisville
8. Arkansas
9. UConn
10. Cincinnati
Thatís a bit better than ďgoodĒ.

You are bringing up a survey that recruits that are starting to get attention were either not alive or still pooping in diapers at the time of.  While I understand you are trying to take in a longer scope or time frame, basketball of all the collegiate sports, is a here and now sport with the new style of recruits than ever before.  These kids don't even care that Uconn had a run a few years back, led alone what Arkansas did when their dad was kicking the can at the local hoop in the early 90's.  They don't even know who Nolan is.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2019, 09:52:49 am »

Hey...you know what...that is just great but I cannot remember and I bet you have no idea without Google...when was the last time we were ranked pre-season? How bout end of the year? I cannot remember because it was most likely when Nolan was coaching.

Werent we ranked end of year one year under Mike?  I could be wrong
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onebadrubi

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2019, 09:53:29 am »

If you will go back and look at my comments, I acknowledge that the last 15 years we have done nothing. No question about it. But, the point being that our program has a firm history of excellence in basketball acknowledged by more than a bunch of local advocates. It is indeed that history that should inspire our administrators and coaches to return our program to a nationally respected program. One that should be able to compete at the highest level.

Iím not sure what the argument is, other than the idea that some apparently wanted to refer to our history as ďgoodĒ. I provided evidence to support the idea that we are known historically as better than a good program. You guys arguing that the last 15 years have been bad are correct. You are spot on. Those who donít know the entire history of the program might want to go back and review it a bit.

The history of the program is one reason many of us have been disappointed in the mediocre at best results the past decade or so. It can and should be nationally competitive given our history, resources, and conference affiliation. Itís my hope that CEM can return us to that level over the next few years. For those who donít think itís possible via a number of ďexcusesĒ, I respectfully disagree.

All well and good when having a debate with Jalen Rose's father.  Not to current recruits
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onebadrubi

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2019, 09:55:47 am »

so no one thinks it's weird beilein is leaving a blueblood for a lebron-less cavs team?

it's not hard to figure out.  something will come out soon.

I think it has to do college basketball landscape at this moment.  For a guy that wants a kosher let contract before retirement, not have to possibly deal with legal issues or flirting with them, why not jump to the NBA?  I'd assume he has some sort of guarantee amount in that contract and that is probably a number he is perfectly happy with riding off in the sunset with. 

College basketball is not in a good place right now with all the stuff going on.  If you were a young coach with good ethics and morals, you probably have to really wonder what's going to happen the next 3,5,10 years.  Can you compete?  Can you keep a job?  A million at a mid major in your mid 30's is great money, but means nothing if you see an end to your career by 40.
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jhogg

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2019, 11:42:54 am »

with the right coach an I believe Coach Muss is the right one, Arkansas can be big time in BB again
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2019, 12:23:41 pm »

No, it's definitely 'good'-- but it isn't great, or elite.    That's what spending 20 years completely off, and 23 years now if you include the falling off do for you-- that's not a blip in program history.  Its right at a quarter of it, on its own.

So yeah,  people that treat this like its 1995....sober up.

And the coach you loved and wanted them to keep yet that was fired is a big portion of those years off.
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ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2019, 01:59:20 pm »

And the coach you loved and wanted them to keep yet that was fired is a big portion of those years off.

I'd have preferred if he had been retained up to a point, but once it was reached-- if you bothered to read-- there was absolutely no choice but to move on.     And yeah-- that period isn't going to end overnight.  I know its nuanced, but the idea that a crater takes time to get out of, on sound footing, and that magic wands don't fix everything to 1995 tomorrow is a hard concept to grasp.
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2019, 02:36:52 pm »

All well and good when having a debate with Jalen Rose's father.  Not to current recruits

Whether itís Jalen Roseís father or Great Grandfather, the issue is that we are a school that has proven we can win a title in the ESPN era. That was one of the things CEM mentioned. The resources necessary to repeat that level of achievement are still present. All that is needed is the right chef to use the ingredients to achieve a higher level of success than we have for 15 years.

Hopefully CEM can be that guy.
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Boared Out Of My Mind

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2019, 03:00:00 pm »

SF Jalen Wilson is a 2019 signee from Texas that can get out of his LOI if he chose too.

In all honest I'd take the assistant coach Saddi Washington over this top 50 recruit because he can bring you even more each year.

Hopefully he does, can go to Kansas and we can get Walker no prob. Also hope we don't lose one to Kansas tonight...
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2019, 04:39:50 pm »

To this point:

so no one thinks it's weird beilein is leaving a blueblood for a lebron-less cavs team?

At least he is leaving for a team in the Eastern conference.....I suspect if an opening would have come his way from a Western conference team, he would have declined.
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2019, 04:46:32 pm »

Let me request a clarification here:

HogCzar1, is this post:
Currently, yes. Historically, no and not close. Back in 2005-2006 Street and Smith magazine evaluated the top college basketball programs of all time. They used a formula that included number of wins, conference and national championships, NCAA appearances and success, etc. Now, granted things have changed in the last 13 years, but not as much as you think since this is a historical look. Arkansas was top 10. Michigan wasnít top 20. Fact. Bottom line is that our program has a rich history many donít appreciate.

Related to this post?
I recognize you and others are laser focused on the last 15 years, and thatís fine. But, from a historical perspective when you are considered as top 10 when this was done, that deserves more than ďgoodĒ. It wasnít done by looking through the eyes of a homer either. My guess would be if I had asked you where Arkansas was in that survey you would not have guessed Arkansas in the top 30. At the time this survey was done it was
1. Kentucky
2. UCLA
3. UNC
4. Kansas
5. Duke
6. Indiana
7. Louisville
8. Arkansas
9. UConn
10. Cincinnati
Thatís a bit better than ďgoodĒ.

I'm asking because in 2005-2006, there is NO way that list would be accurate IF indeed it was looking at programs from a historical basis throughout the history of college basketball.  So that is my question - was that list meant to be a look at the best teams from throughout the history of college basketball to the time the article was published (2005-2006)?

I realize Florida had not yet won their titles at this point (or two of Villinova's), but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_champions#Multiple_champions
would / should be the starting point for the list above...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 04:57:33 pm by sevenof400 »
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2019, 07:50:10 pm »

Here is the list referred to in the previous post.
My point here is even allowing for the titles after 2005-2006, there is NO way Arkansas would / should be considered the eight best program all time.
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UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2019, 08:17:09 pm »

Here is the list referred to in the previous post.
My point here is even allowing for the titles after 2005-2006, there is NO way Arkansas would / should be considered the eight best program all time.

Your metric is only NC's and you have no idea what went into the Street & Smith's ranking, so you have no idea if your right or not but you wag your finger anyway...whatever.
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2019, 08:29:33 pm »

Your metric is only NC's and you have no idea what went into the Street & Smith's ranking, so you have no idea if your right or not but you wag your finger anyway...whatever.

First of all, I read Hogczar1's post and I am assuming his recap of the S/S article is accurate.  After that however, I don't care if it was Smith and Wesson, there is NO possible way their data could rationally conclude Arkansas was the 8th best program of all time at any time in history.

None.
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UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2019, 08:33:22 pm »

First of all, I read Hogczar1's post and I am assuming his recap of the S/S article is accurate.  After that however, I don't care if it was Smith and Wesson, there is NO possible way their data could rationally conclude Arkansas was the 8th best program of all time at any time in history.

None.

And yet that is exactly what happened.
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2019, 08:49:15 pm »

Let me request a clarification here:

HogCzar1, is this post:
Related to this post?
I'm asking because in 2005-2006, there is NO way that list would be accurate IF indeed it was looking at programs from a historical basis throughout the history of college basketball.  So that is my question - was that list meant to be a look at the best teams from throughout the history of college basketball to the time the article was published (2005-2006)?

I realize Florida had not yet won their titles at this point (or two of Villinova's), but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_champions#Multiple_champions
would / should be the starting point for the list above...

You can go back and search the article. So, to answer your question, yes. The list was meant to start from 2005 and go back to the beginning. You also can complain and disagree until the cows come home. But, you are flat out wrong if you say this didnít happen. Street and Smith was a very reputable publication nationally. They created a list of criteria in which they attempted to list the top college basketball programs of all time. This was done back in 2005. I didnít make it up. And, I didnít write it. Obviously, we wouldnít be as high now after the past 14 years. However, if they did an updated version you wouldnít see us slide down 50 spots either.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 09:03:00 pm by HogCzar1 »
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ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2019, 09:06:39 pm »

You can go back and search the article. So, to answer your question, yes. The list was meant to start from 2005 and go back to the beginning. You also can complain and disagree until the cows come home. But, you are flat out wrong if you say this didnít happen. Street and Smith was a very reputable publication nationally. They created a list of criteria in which they attempted to list the top college basketball programs of all time. This was done back in 2005. I didnít make it up. And, I didnít write it. Obviously, we wouldnít be as high now after the past 14 years. However, if they did an updated version you wouldnít see us slide down 50 spots either.



14 years;   you'd see us slide out of the Top 10, and almost out of the Top 20.   We'd be passed by a good number of programs that our fans like to treat dismissively.

That's eons in sports.  Its a huge block of our history, and of the sport's history.    Its sad that people have to live so far in the past,  because the present is  too daunting for them to accept.
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2019, 09:21:08 pm »

14 years;   you'd see us slide out of the Top 10, and almost out of the Top 20.   We'd be passed by a good number of programs that our fans like to treat dismissively.

That's eons in sports.  Its a huge block of our history, and of the sport's history.    Its sad that people have to live so far in the past,  because the present is  too daunting for them to accept.

Respectfully, I have no idea why you feel people dismiss the last 15 years. I havenít seen anyone defend it. And, I donít think itís intellectually daunting to accept it. It is a long time. And, there are those unfortunately who havenít seen us compete at the highest level. But, no need to knock those who have. Many of us watched the triplets, and the transition to Nolan. We didnít take a backseat to anyone. 15 years is not an eon. It is a long time. We have stunk the house up since really around 2001. No doubt. No argument. But, if the argument is that we canít ever get back to that level, I disagree. I am myself very optimistic that not only are better times ahead, but that over the next 3-4-5 years we will become very competitive at the top 10-20 level.

ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2019, 09:40:16 pm »

Respectfully, I have no idea why you feel people dismiss the last 15 years. I havenít seen anyone defend it. And, I donít think itís intellectually daunting to accept it. It is a long time. And, there are those unfortunately who havenít seen us compete at the highest level. But, no need to knock those who have. Many of us watched the triplets, and the transition to Nolan. We didnít take a backseat to anyone. 15 years is not an eon. It is a long time. We have stunk the house up since really around 2001. No doubt. No argument. But, if the argument is that we canít ever get back to that level, I disagree. I am myself very optimistic that not only are better times ahead, but that over the next 3-4-5 years we will become very competitive at the top 10-20 level.

I've followed the Hogs for almost 45 years now.  To say we're far from our peak, is an understatement.

14 years is an eon in sports, yes.   The game is radically different, and the players who are playing now don't even remember Arkansas being relevant.

The road back to our top level-- or even relatively near it-- is an extremely long one.   It'll take a decade, in all likelihood, at absolute best. 
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2019, 09:42:28 pm »

14 years is an eon in sports, yes.   The game is radically different, and the players who are playing now don't even remember Arkansas being relevant.

The road back to our top level-- or even relatively near it-- is an extremely long one.   It'll take a decade, in all likelihood, at absolute best. 
I've followed the Hogs for almost 45 years now.

I have followed the Hogs for 50 years now. And, I disagree that it will take 10 years.

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2019, 09:45:08 pm »

I have followed the Hogs for 50 years now. And, I disagree that it will take 10 years.

There's a complete rebuild to do, and all the time our greater field of equivalent to near equivalent programs will be in a stronger position than we are, to add to their resumes.      It'll take multiple years of very high level performance to start making any level of distinction between us and the programs of a similar ilk, and that takes time and accumulation.    Maybe we get a few national title appearances in the next 5 years, but that's a very, very, very long shot indeed.    We need to get back to being a second weekend team.

Arkansas Hog in Dallas

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2019, 09:49:56 pm »

There's a complete rebuild to do, and all the time our greater field of equivalent to near equivalent programs will be in a stronger position than we are, to add to their resumes.      It'll take multiple years of very high level performance to start making any level of distinction between us and the programs of a similar ilk, and that takes time and accumulation.    Maybe we get a few national title appearances in the next 5 years, but that's a very, very, very long shot indeed.    We need to get back to being a second weekend team.

I don't think there's a complete rebuild. I think we are probably going to win 23-25 regular season games and make it to the Round of 32 next year, assuming CEM can add a big. If things break right, I wouldn't be surprised by a Sweet Sixteen birth in year 1.
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ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2019, 09:55:00 pm »

I don't think there's a complete rebuild. I think we are probably going to win 23-25 regular season games and make it to the Round of 32 next year, assuming CEM can add a big. If things break right, I wouldn't be surprised by a Sweet Sixteen birth in year 1.

Its much harder to build an expectation framework for the team with the input of the graduate transfers that he's pulling in right now.   That said, first years are always adjustment years, and scaling down expectations is not only rational, but prudent.   
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Arkansas Hog in Dallas

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2019, 10:00:42 pm »

Its much harder to build an expectation framework for the team with the input of the graduate transfers that he's pulling in right now.   That said, first years are always adjustment years, and scaling down expectations is not only rational, but prudent.   

Why? Everywhere he's ever gone has been better in year 1 than the year before, including Nevada. Further, I think that natural growth is going to make this team really really good next year
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ErieHog

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2019, 10:04:37 pm »

Why? Everywhere he's ever gone has been better in year 1 than the year before, including Nevada. Further, I think that natural growth is going to make this team really really good next year

Because its an entirely new system, new fit, new routines, new training regimen.   Adjustments take time-- its human nature.    He'll have to learn our league, our referees, our road trips, our training facilities, our support staff, everything.

People get leaps and bounds ahead of themselves assuming that all changes will be equally positive, and that all situations will be equally improved by the same ingredients.    They aren't, and don't.

If nothing had changed, I had this pegged as a 21 or 22 win type team next year; when he was hired, I moved that back to 18-19 games.  Now with the graduate transfers, its becoming much harder to get a fix on what our lineups are going to look like, and what the team roles will be, so its much more up in the air--  but I'm not going to bet the farm on it being 23-25 wins.  That's setting one's self up for disappointment.
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2019, 10:06:21 pm »

Its much harder to build an expectation framework for the team with the input of the graduate transfers that he's pulling in right now.   That said, first years are always adjustment years, and scaling down expectations is not only rational, but prudent.   

A good example would be Memphis. They hit rock bottom a few years ago with Tubby Smith. While they werenít terrible they also were no threat at a 2nd weekend in the tournament. Penny has recruited arguably the best player in HS plus 3-4 to go with him plus a grad transfer from LR. They are now talking in Memphis that they have potentially a final 4 team next year. That is a bit ambitious in my opinion but in just 2 years he has changed the mindset and perception of that program totally. I just donít think it takes 10 years. I donít know if CEM can get us back as a sweet 16 team in 2-3 years. But, with what we have coming back plus our newcomers plus a legitimate shot at a 5 star player from Phoenix I think we have reason to be much more optimistic than some think.

sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2019, 08:09:00 am »

And yet that is exactly what happened.

And it was wrong.  Nice to see what side you're on in this discussion.

Present the point(s) that support your position. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 08:34:21 am by sevenof400 »
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HogCzar1

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2019, 08:39:52 am »

And it was wrong.  Nice to see what side you're on in this discussion.

Present the point(s) that support your position. 

No, you were wrong. You questioned the legitimacy of the article. It was, and is, legit.
Kind of like saying the results of a medical study were wrong. Itís not an argument.
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2019, 08:41:20 am »

I should note that in terms of the timeframe to make/recruit a good team, all it takes is one year and a team can be instantly successful. 
But over the years, a decent number of teams have had a good year or two only to fall back into mediocrity.  The blue blood teams (or those close) tend to be just the opposite as they have more years of success punctuated by a few years of disappointment. 

I think every fan of Arkansas would like to see them in the latter category instead of the former. 
   
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sevenof400

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Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2019, 08:42:02 am »

No, you were wrong. You questioned the legitimacy of the article. It was, and is, legit.
Kind of like saying the results of a medical study were wrong. Itís not an argument.

Until someone can provide a link to that article, it has the meaning of mud.
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UnknownNobody

Re: Michigan HC Beilein to leave for Cavs
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2019, 08:58:47 am »

And it was wrong.  Nice to see what side you're on in this discussion.

Present the point(s) that support your position.

You have an untenable position, it is all your opinion backed up by a list of NC's.

The only thing you have done to argue your position is basically call HogCzar1 a liar.
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