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Author Topic: I would like to hear the argument against...  (Read 835 times)

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Noah Little

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I would like to hear the argument against...
« on: May 03, 2019, 10:15:52 am »

Recently Jimmy Kimmell had Tom Brady on, and he explained why he didn't care that he wasn't the highest paid QB in the league, because to help the salary cap, he took less so the Patriots could surround him with players that help them continue winning championships. What an unselfish, classy individual. You don't see that much in sports at any level these days. The segment ended with Kimmell and Brady going to Matt Damon's house and Brady thew a football through his window! Classy, unselfish, AND great sense of humor.
The only thing that bothered me was the intro where they said "Tom Brady, arguably the greatest quarterback to ever play the game." No disrespect to Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, or Johnny Unitas, but that's an argument that's ended. What would be the argument AGAINST Tom being the greatest (as well as classiest) QB in history?
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Hog_Swanson

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 10:21:07 am »

He's the GOAT.  Get over it.
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HogPharmer

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 10:24:26 am »

Well when your wife is the main bread winner for the house and is worth about $400 MILLION, I guess it's easy to be, as you call it, "unselfish."
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 10:33:03 am »

There is an argument.

Many give Brady credit for the Patriots success, so this makes him the 'greatest'.
But it's a team game. Bill Belichick had a lot to do with that success, too.
It's the organization's success, not just Brady's. The Patriots are a great organization, run very intelligently.
In other words, if Brady had played for the Jets all these years, are we having this conversation?

Brady is a really clutch QB.
Belichick's reputation as a winning coach is hugely benefitted from his QB.
But likewise, Brady's reputation as a winning QB is hugely benefitted from playing for Belichick and the Patriots.

I always hesitate when people use team accomplishments to distinguish individuals. There are many great players who never had the fortune to play with great organizations and surrounded by great managers, players, and others.

Brady deserves to be in the conversation, for sure. I could name a dozen others I would consider.
He would probably be happy to be in the conversation.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2019, 10:34:30 am »

I love Arkansas Razorbacks football discussion

HogPharmer

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 10:37:48 am »

I love Arkansas Razorbacks football discussion

The Razorbacks are merely proving to be the semi-pro team for the Patriots.
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Dropkick

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 10:38:23 am »

Too subjective, there is no GOAT in my opinion.

RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2019, 10:42:12 am »

The Razorbacks are merely proving to be the semi-pro team for the Patriots.

Well, I was at the 1999 Citrus Bowl when Brady-led Michigan beat us so...

Never mind, I see the connection. Carry on.
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Arkansas Hog in Dallas

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2019, 10:50:59 am »

It's between him or Rodgers imo. I'm a Pats fan, BUT Rodgers is clearly more talented than Brady. His arm strength and athleticism make him more talented. In my opinion, there is a difference between most talented of all time and GOAT. I think that Tom is the GOAT because he is just such a gamer and so consistently clutch. When you get the ball with 1:17 left in the 4th quarter, I think you prefer Tom every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Therefore, he's the GOAT imo
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2019, 10:54:02 am »

Recently Jimmy Kimmell had Tom Brady on, and he explained why he didn't care that he wasn't the highest paid QB in the league, because to help the salary cap, he took less so the Patriots could surround him with players that help them continue winning championships. What an unselfish, classy individual. You don't see that much in sports at any level these days. The segment ended with Kimmell and Brady going to Matt Damon's house and Brady thew a football through his window! Classy, unselfish, AND great sense of humor.
The only thing that bothered me was the intro where they said "Tom Brady, arguably the greatest quarterback to ever play the game." No disrespect to Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, or Johnny Unitas, but that's an argument that's ended. What would be the argument AGAINST Tom being the greatest (as well as classiest) QB in history?

There are several players at almost every position including QB where an argument can be made for different players. Thatís because each played on different teams each year with different teammates against different opponents in different eraís. Put those same QBís on different teams the same year or even other teams different years that had great QBís and itís hard to say if they would have done as well. I will admit when arguing QBs itís perfectly legitimate and rational to start the argument with Brady. No matter how good any one player is they have to have some good teammates or they arenít going to win championships or enough games in general.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 10:20:31 am by Inhogswetrust »
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HogPharmer

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 10:58:53 am »

Well, I was at the 1999 Citrus Bowl when Brady-led Michigan beat us so...

Never mind, I see the connection. Carry on.

Even our former HC has been drafted as the professional coffee maker/burger fetcher for the Pats organization
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HungryHog

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2019, 11:27:21 am »

There is an argument.

Many give Brady credit for the Patriots success, so this makes him the 'greatest'.
But it's a team game. Bill Belichick had a lot to do with that success, too.
It's the organization's success, not just Brady's. The Patriots are a great organization, run very intelligently.
In other words, if Brady had played for the Jets all these years, are we having this conversation?

Brady is a really clutch QB.
Belichick's reputation as a winning coach is hugely benefitted from his QB.
But likewise, Brady's reputation as a winning QB is hugely benefitted from playing for Belichick and the Patriots.

I always hesitate when people use team accomplishments to distinguish individuals. There are many great players who never had the fortune to play with great organizations and surrounded by great managers, players, and others.

Sure it is a team sport, but Brady is the man in the arena playing the games year after year without getting injured.  He takes the pressure of being the QB.  He takes the pressure of being called the GOAT and backing it up.  He does the film work, he does the physical and mental preparation year after year.  He is involved in the team dynamics, leading his team to victories - they play better being around him. 

Yes he owns most QB team records, but also most QB individual records..

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/15/16464558/tom-brady-nfl-record-list-most-touchdowns-yards

Records owned by Brady

    Regular season wins by a starting quarterback (207)
    Most passing yards, regular season and playoffs (81,693)
    Most passing touchdowns, postseason included: 590
    Most touchdowns thrown to different receivers (71)
    Division titles (16)
    Playoff games started (40)
    Playoff wins (30)
    Playoff touchdown passes (73)
    Playoff passing yards (11,179)
    Super Bowl appearances (9)
    Super Bowl wins (6)
    Super Bowl MVPs (4)
    Super Bowl touchdown passes (18)
    Super Bowl passing yards (2,838)

There is no argument.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2019, 11:55:09 am »

Of course there is an argument.

Just off the top of my head, there is Joe Montana, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino

I have a hard time picking the 'greatest' in anything. I usually end up with groups like this. It's too hard for me to pluck out individuals from their teams and eras and declare him 'the greatest'.
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hogsanity

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2019, 12:14:34 pm »

Comparing players from different era's is so hard to do. Is Mike Trout better than Babe Ruth? Was Aaron better than Ruth? Mays? Clemente? People forget Babe Ruth the pitcher. He was 94-46 as a pitcher with a 2.28 ERA. Then people say " well he did that in the dead ball era" okay, he also hit 714 home runs.

One thing Qb's like Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Young all had Owners and GM's to put good teams around them. Would any of them have been as good playing for lousy teams their entire careers?
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2019, 02:28:34 pm »

--->Would any of them have been as good playing for lousy teams their entire careers? --->

Of course they wouldn't. Which is why I hesitate to name Brady the GOAT just because New England won a bunch of Super Bowls.
The Patriots are a great organization.

The Raiders through much of the 2000s were a dysfunctional mess. What would Brady have done playing for them? If he's the GOAT, he could have lifted them singlehandedly to a Super Bowl or two. But, to me, that would have been very hard to do considering what a mess the Raiders were in the last years of Al Davis.

To me, teams/organizations win Super Bowls. Competing against other solid teams/organizations, having a great QB is often the difference between winning and losing. And there's no question Brady is a great, clutch QB.

Along my line of thinking...how do we know Archie Manning isn't one of the great NFL QBs of all time? But...he had to play for the New Orleans 'Aints his entire career and was a human piŮata.
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pigz

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 02:41:06 pm »

He's a dirty cheater

hogsanity

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 02:57:37 pm »

--->Would any of them have been as good playing for lousy teams their entire careers? --->

Of course they wouldn't. Which is why I hesitate to name Brady the GOAT just because New England won a bunch of Super Bowls.
The Patriots are a great organization.

The Raiders through much of the 2000s were a dysfunctional mess. What would Brady have done playing for them? If he's the GOAT, he could have lifted them singlehandedly to a Super Bowl or two. But, to me, that would have been very hard to do considering what a mess the Raiders were in the last years of Al Davis.

To me, teams/organizations win Super Bowls. Competing against other solid teams/organizations, having a great QB is often the difference between winning and losing. And there's no question Brady is a great, clutch QB.

Along my line of thinking...how do we know Archie Manning isn't one of the great NFL QBs of all time? But...he had to play for the New Orleans 'Aints his entire career and was a human piŮata.

That was exactly my point. Plus look at some of the Qb's that have won Super Bowls, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, Russell Wilson, Doug Willimas, Jeff Hostetler, none of them, imo, are anywhere close to great Qb's.

HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2019, 03:24:07 pm »

That was exactly my point. Plus look at some of the Qb's that have won Super Bowls, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, Russell Wilson, Doug Willimas, Jeff Hostetler, none of them, imo, are anywhere close to great Qb's.
Right.
When Trent Dilfer is introduced, it's probably going to be 'Super Bowl champion' Trent Dilfer....

So...Trent won that by himself, eh?

Just because he was the QB of a winning team gives him a lot of cachet in today's world.

Good for him. I'm just knocking the way people view things, which is...erroneously.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2019, 03:24:37 pm »

'Six-time NBA Champion Robert Horry....'
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2019, 03:26:29 pm »

To summarize...

QB is the most important position on a football team.

Having said that, QBs are still given too much credit and too much blame for their team's success. Football is the ultimate team game.
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HenduHog

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2019, 08:33:35 pm »

Oh, I can't argue with Brady being the GOAT of QBs. Count the rings.

However, I was listening to NFLRadio in Sirius, and the discussion came up of the greatest ATHLETE.  Someone said Tom Brady. THIS I would argue with. Brady isn't even the most athletic QB, much less player in general.

My vote would be for Jim Brown, with Barry Sanders and Walter Peyton close behind.

The Sirius guy said Brown too.

ErieHog

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2019, 09:20:57 pm »

Oh, I can't argue with Brady being the GOAT of QBs. Count the rings.

However, I was listening to NFLRadio in Sirius, and the discussion came up of the greatest ATHLETE.  Someone said Tom Brady. THIS I would argue with. Brady isn't even the most athletic QB, much less player in general.

My vote would be for Jim Brown, with Barry Sanders and Walter Peyton close behind.

The Sirius guy said Brown too.


Release, durability, and the ability to feel both pocket pressure, and not feel game pressure, are important athletic assets.

So, yeah, he deserves consideration.    Maybe not Bill Russell consideration, but up there.
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hawgmasta

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 10:58:53 pm »

Oh, I can't argue with Brady being the GOAT of QBs. Count the rings.

However, I was listening to NFLRadio in Sirius, and the discussion came up of the greatest ATHLETE.  Someone said Tom Brady. THIS I would argue with. Brady isn't even the most athletic QB, much less player in general.

My vote would be for Jim Brown, with Barry Sanders and Walter Peyton close behind.

The Sirius guy said Brown too.

I think thatís part of the lore and further proves if heís not the goat he definitely works the hardest. Brady is like your average 40 year old guy if he ate really well and owned a gym; hell a gym owner might be in better shape. He was never a physical freak but outlasted then all in years and wins.

EastexHawg

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2019, 01:14:11 pm »

People forget Babe Ruth the pitcher. He was 94-46 as a pitcher with a 2.28 ERA. Then people say " well he did that in the dead ball era" okay, he also hit 714 home runs.

He's the greatest player in the history of sport, any sport, and the contradiction between "dead ball, low scoring" and his outrageous offensive production is part of the body of evidence of his greatness.  If Ruth hadn't been the greatest hitter of all time he was well on his way to a Hall of Fame career as a pitcher.
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hawkhawg

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 07:54:31 pm »

Brady is the GOAT. He has Stats, records, wins, and Super Bowls.
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sevenof400

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2019, 10:39:50 am »

Oh, I can't argue with Brady being the GOAT of QBs. Count the rings.

Otto Graham has 7.
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clutch

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2019, 06:17:10 am »

I don't know if Brady is the best ever or not, but I do know that you can't really say he's not just because he's been in a great organization. All those teams that go through terrible struggles are usually lacking a QB, and in a frantic search to find one. They make a lot of bad moves in attempt to find a great QB.

When teams get good QB's on their rosters, you usually start seeing all the other pieces fall into place as well and they start improving. Not to the level of the Patriots success normally, but they get a lot better.
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k.c.hawg

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2019, 02:09:47 pm »

Enough of the BS with TB12's pay. You are talking about the cheatingest organization in the NFL. It is obvious they have an under the table deal. Why the hell wouldn't they?? They have stretched and broken every rule possible. Guys with egos the size of Brady's aren't going to be the 14th highest paid QB in the league when he's the goat and in the prime of his career even with a $400m wife.  I would bet my house there is a numbered account in Cayman or some other country that has major banking secrecy with $50 million of Kraft's money in it waiting for TB12.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 12:17:07 pm by k.c.hawg »
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Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

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Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2019, 09:04:52 am »

Obviously just my opinion. There is Dan Marino G.O.A.T.  The conversation starts after for second. 

As mentioned above comparing eras is tough, but I know what I saw. 

Chuck Noll biggest draft day blunder ever. He like many teams passed on Marino in the first round because of rumors he smoked weed.

The Steelers would probably have 10 or 11 rings now had they drafted Dan.  The had O-line, they had running game, and they had defense.  We're still very successful even making the AFC championship game with Kordell Stewart.

Dan Marino changed the way defenses played and made average receivers look like all pros.  Duper and Clayton were the most talented they had and either would not be a number one for any team now.

If you didn't get to see him really play you can't possibly know what I'm talking about.  85 Super Bowl Champion Bears only loss that season was to young Marino on Monday Night Football.  I was 13 at the time and remember it like it was yesterday.  What he did to that dominant defense was amazing.
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hawkhawg

Re: I would like to hear the argument against...
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2019, 07:24:08 pm »

Tom Brady's new contract is 28.3 million.  The Falcons lead the Pats 28-3 before the comeback in the Super Bowl. 
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