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Durant

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311Hog:

Ok i have to admit i had a spit take this morning when i got the ESPN alert notification about this.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2797324-kevin-durants-thirty-five-media-to-launch-the-boardroom-with-espn

especially when it feels like only yesterday that he was crying about the business of the NBA.....


https://thebiglead.com/2019/02/07/kevin-durant-media-meltdown-grow-up-knicks/

They guy is a crazy good basketball player but more and more it does seem like he is thin skinned about criticism.


hvsupastar:

He's a very talented sissy

EastexHawg:

He's going to leave Golden State after this season and as a Warriors fan I'm really not going to be sad to see him go.  I think he is jealous of Steph Curry and it shows on the court.  Over the last month I have played back numerous times when Durant has refused to pass the ball to a wide open Curry who was spotted up at the three point line.  Try paying attention to it the next time you watch a Warriors game.

Durant is a great player but I think he has only grudgingly tried to somewhat fit in with the Golden State culture of unselfish basketball and finding the open man.  I have no inside information whatsoever, but I have a feeling Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green...the core of the home grown championship team the Warriors built before Durant came over from OKC...won't shed any tears over his departure.  They may not win as many games and may not win any more championships, but I bet they would like to try.

Buff:

Meanwhile OKC seems to be back to form without Durant as well. 

I'm still mad at his demeanor in the GSW series his last year at OKC - spent more time chattering with GSW players than his own teammates, even during timeouts after Draymond kicked Adams in the balls (again).

He's still exciting to watch, and he has all the physical tools to be great. 

EastexHawg:

ABC showed a stat Saturday night before the Warriors-Thunder game.  It said that Golden State was 24-1 with Curry in the lineup but without Durant.  Make that 25-1 after GS has knocked off Houston and OKC on the road.

As I have said before, Durant is undoubtedly a great offensive talent and scorer.  Having said that, I think Golden State's offense flows better when he isn't in the lineup and they aren't constantly trying to set screens or running clear-outs to get him shots.  When Durant is on the floor they pass the ball to him near the three point line on one side of the floor.  Curry goes to the other side of the court to clear out and let Durant go one on one.

When Durant isn't on the floor they run almost non-stop motion and whoever pops open gets the shot.

I think KD is gone at the end of this season.  I think he will be missed when Curry and Thompson aren't shooting well, but I don't think he will be missed a lot.

ErieHog:

He's the perfect example of an adult Texas Longhorn.

HognitiveDissonance:

You guys are spot on.

First, in no way would I say a team is a better team without Durant on it. I don't believe that.

But, I don't like the way the Warriors play when Durant is around.
Kevin Durant should NOT be bringing the ball up the floor. That is asinine. He is not a ball handler or a PG.
Curry is a natural point guard, who can score. He should be the one initiating the offense.

The Game 6 clincher vs Houston, at the end of the game, they kept running the same play over and over. D Green would come do a pick-and-roll, and Curry was red hot, or half the time he would drop to Draymond. Draymond is not a consistent threat to shoot the jumper, but can still make plays. But can you imagine if they ran that play with Durant doing the pick-and-pop? He catches the ball anywhere, he's immediately a threat from any range.

The Warriors changed their game to fit Durant in to do his 'thing'. And they're so talented it works most of the time. But it's dumb, and boring to watch. And it works because Curry is an unusually unselfish superstar in today's world. His lack of ego makes it work.

I agree they wouldn't be depressed if KD left.

Remember Draymond and Durant got into an argument in the locker room earlier this year. Basically Draymond being Draymond, but he told KD that they won a title before he got there.

EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 13, 2019, 04:30:34 pm ---Remember Draymond and Durant got into an argument in the locker room earlier this year. Basically Draymond being Draymond, but he told KD that they won a title before he got there.

--- End quote ---

I didn't know the source of the argument or what was said, but that makes sense.  The Warriors with Durant are sort of like the Doobie Brothers with Michael McDonald.  They have experienced success, but the core members won't be sad to see him go so they can go back to being themselves.

I don't think there is any doubt that Durant will leave.  One of the owners of the Warriors said his goal is to hold onto Curry and Klay Thompson "forever".  That means the priority isn't to shell out what it would take to keep Durant.

HognitiveDissonance:

There was an end-of-game situation that didn't go well, I think Draymond ended up doing something, and KD was screaming 'pass the ball'.
Draymond got hot, tempers flared, and it carried into the locker room.
Really a heat of the battle thing and I don't think it carried on.

But that was the situation where Green told KD they had won a title before he got there.

99toLife:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on May 14, 2019, 10:25:38 am ---I didn't know the source of the argument or what was said, but that makes sense.  The Warriors with Durant are sort of like the Doobie Brothers with Michael McDonald.  They have experienced success, but the core members won't be sad to see him go so they can go back to being themselves.

I don't think there is any doubt that Durant will leave.  One of the owners of the Warriors said his goal is to hold onto Curry and Klay Thompson "forever".  That means the priority isn't to shell out what it would take to keep Durant.

--- End quote ---

I like that, nice.

#1 STUNNA:

The Warriors dont need Durant... Durant needs the warriors.... we will see... 2 series to go

311Hog:


--- Quote from: #1 STUNNA on May 15, 2019, 09:10:37 am ---The Warriors dont need Durant... Durant needs the warriors.... we will see... 2 series to go

--- End quote ---
this was true 3 years ago. It is odd to me that the narrative is murky.  Because to me 2 facts both exist

1. Durant is an all world Hall of fame type player
2. The warriors are an all world Hall of fame type team both before he got there and even today without him.

Some of the media hype etc. seems to have the sole purpose of driving a wedge between GS and Durant in order to pry Durant off that team which is hilarious to me why they won't just leave that guy alone he is clearly thin skinned and all this probably hurts him but it does not hurt the Warriors those dudes are monsters completely intact.

Last night was an amazing display the entire team came out and did their jobs.

HognitiveDissonance:

That's it.
Selfishness or unselfishness has little to do with it.

The pieces of Golden State just fit perfectly without Durant.
Curry = playmaker and scorer
Thompson = shooter
Draymond = defensive stopper, utility guy, box score stuffer
Iguodala = sixth man
Everyone else = knows their role

When Durant is in, as awesome as he is, he disrupts the fitting of the pieces as everyone adjusts to him. It disrupts the team.
If they would just let the offense flow through their natural point guard(Curry), it would be alright. When KD is bringing the ball up the floor, things stagnate completely. He dribbles the air out of the ball, ends up jacking up a shot but it good enough where that works half the time. But the team and offense stagnates.

311Hog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 10:25:37 am ---That's it.
Selfishness or unselfishness has little to do with it.

The pieces of Golden State just fit perfectly without Durant.
Curry = playmaker and scorer
Thompson = shooter
Draymond = defensive stopper, utility guy, box score stuffer
Iguodala = sixth man
Everyone else = knows their role

When Durant is in, as awesome as he is, he disrupts the fitting of the pieces as everyone adjusts to him. It disrupts the team.
If they would just let the offense flow through their natural point guard(Curry), it would be alright. When KD is bringing the ball up the floor, things stagnate completely. He dribbles the air out of the ball, ends up jacking up a shot but it good enough where that works half the time. But the team and offense stagnates.

--- End quote ---

i am not sure if you have seen it but you should go watch episode 1 and 2 of season 2 of the Game on Facebook watch.  I just got finished watching it and the insight into Steph Curry and the warriors is amazing.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?query=stephen%20curry

HognitiveDissonance:

Haven't seen it, as I'm one of the five people on the planet who isn't on Facebook.

But I may try to watch it.

311Hog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 11:12:10 am ---Haven't seen it, as I'm one of the five people on the planet who isn't on Facebook.

But I may try to watch it.

--- End quote ---
i am not sure you need to be on facebook to watch it, FB seems to be venturing into the original content streaming world i just found it today.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 10:25:37 am ---That's it.
Selfishness or unselfishness has little to do with it.

The pieces of Golden State just fit perfectly without Durant.
Curry = playmaker and scorer
Thompson = shooter
Draymond = defensive stopper, utility guy, box score stuffer
Iguodala = sixth man
Everyone else = knows their role

When Durant is in, as awesome as he is, he disrupts the fitting of the pieces as everyone adjusts to him. It disrupts the team.
If they would just let the offense flow through their natural point guard(Curry), it would be alright. When KD is bringing the ball up the floor, things stagnate completely. He dribbles the air out of the ball, ends up jacking up a shot but it good enough where that works half the time. But the team and offense stagnates.

--- End quote ---

The fit is better, but the team is not, over the aggregate.

Why?   Because we haven't seen that team in a few years now.    The slippage in Draymond's game were very evident the first half of the year, though he has played better post ASG.        They're piling on the miles as well,  facing their  5th straight year of playing 95-100 games between the regular and postseason.

In a one game bubble,  yeah, things will flow better without Durant.  Over the aggregate,  it puts additional stress on older players, who are starting to see tiny signs of slippage-- if you count on Iggy to give you 15 in a big playoff game,  you're playing against the odds.

HognitiveDissonance:

I want Durant on my team. Period.

I just don't want him playing point guard.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 02:38:26 pm ---I want Durant on my team. Period.

I just don't want him playing point guard.

--- End quote ---

Durant's the ideal initiator;  whether or not you view that as a point guard, is up to you.


311Hog:

i mean i honestly would be more surprised if the warriors didn't look different with Durant on the floor.  The "core" team was forged together through the fire, Durant is the turbo that came along later, so yeah sometimes you can see the team play differently, to hear Curry tell it, Durant and all of them are seeking "another level" it is very hard to argue with the success that they have had, and not adversity free either.

HognitiveDissonance:

From watching the last few games, I would totally disagree.
Curry is an incredible playmaker, and can obviously score with a sliver of opening.
Their offense is rolling now.

I watched Durant receive the inbounds pass, trot the ball up the court, dribble, dribble, finally pass or jack up a shot....all the while the others are standing around.
Just totally crazy. Why is he dribbling the ball up the court? Curry can breakdown the defense at will, to create for others, or get his own shot.

Durant just doesn't move that quick at 7'0. Nothing happens quickly with him.

Just do anything else at all, except having him bring the ball up and start the offense.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 02:48:39 pm ---From watching the last few games, I would totally disagree.
Curry is an incredible playmaker, and can obviously score with a sliver of opening.
Their offense is rolling now.

I watched Durant receive the inbounds pass, trot the ball up the court, dribble, dribble, finally pass or jack up a shot....all the while the others are standing around.
Just totally crazy. Why is he dribbling the ball up the court? Curry can breakdown the defense at will, to create for others, or get his own shot.

Durant just doesn't move that quick at 7'0. Nothing happens quickly with him.

Just do anything else at all, except having him bring the ball up and start the offense.

--- End quote ---

In terms of possession initiators in the NBA, its him or Harden, for what the end results are.

It may not be pretty, but it works better than anyone else.

311Hog:

i just really like watching Steph and Klay together there is a beauty to their game.  People like to bag on Steph's defense but it has gotten better.  cant believe it has been 10 years.

EastexHawg:

I am a Warriors fan and I won't miss Durant when he is gone.  As has been stated repeatedly, the offense stagnates when he is on the floor.  They play iso ball like Houston does with Harden.  You have Curry, who is a two-time MVP and the greatest shooter in history, going to a corner and standing there like he is in time out so Durant was dribble and shoot.  For most of his time with Golden State he has been a black hole offensively.  When the ball goes in it never comes out.  It's him, Westbrook, and the need for two basketballs with the Thunder all over again. 

Will the Warriors be BETTER without Durant?  I don't know.  I assume they will sign someone else when he moves on, which he is surely going to do.  As we have seen the last 2-1/2 games, without Durant sucking the air out of the room Curry, Thompson, and the rest of the team have stepped up and gotten the job done.  Really the question isn't will they be better, it is will they still be good enough to win the title.  I'm ready to find out, and I think the rest of the Warriors are, too.

I guess we all saw the stat last night...the Warriors are now 28-1 with Curry in the lineup and Durant sitting out.  What is their record with Durant but without Curry?

311Hog:

i don't put Durant in with Harden, Durant is a far better player. Better than Westbrook to mainly because of his impact on Defense and over all skill set.   (not one trick pony).

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: 311Hog on May 15, 2019, 03:09:47 pm ---i don't put Durant in with Harden, Durant is a far better player. Better than Westbrook to mainly because of his impact on Defense and over all skill set.   (not one trick pony).

--- End quote ---

When it comes to actual per possession results, as initiators, its Harden, then Durant, then a gap, then Curry/Klay-- they're within like .001 PPP of each other.



EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: 311Hog on May 15, 2019, 03:09:47 pm ---i don't put Durant in with Harden, Durant is a far better player. Better than Westbrook to mainly because of his impact on Defense and over all skill set.   (not one trick pony).

--- End quote ---

Durant is a better shooter.  Harden has capitalized on drawing more fouls on 3 point shots than anyone in history.  Harden also shoots more...a lot more...than anyone in the league.

I wasn't really comparing them as players, I am comparing the style of offense their teams run.  The Rockets run more iso with Harden, but the Warriors have done more than their share of it with Durant.

There is this widely held assumption that Durant is a more effective scorer than Curry.  Is he?  During the regular season Curry was 7th in the NBA in effective field goal percentage and Durant was 25th.  For their careers Curry's EFG% is .582; Durant's is .542.  In other words, Curry has scored more points than Durant this year and throughout their careers on a per-shot basis.  Curry is also a better free throw shooter.

311Hog:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on May 15, 2019, 03:27:59 pm ---Durant is a better shooter.  Harden has capitalized on drawing more fouls on 3 point shots than anyone in history.  Harden also shoots more...a lot more...than anyone in the league.

I wasn't really comparing them as players, I am comparing the style of offense their teams run.  The Rockets run more iso with Harden, but the Warriors have done more than their share of it with Durant.

There is this widely held assumption that Durant is a more effective scorer than Curry.  Is he?  During the regular season Curry was 7th in the NBA in effective field goal percentage and Durant was 25th.  For their careers Curry's EFG% is .582; Durant's is .542.  In other words, Curry has scored more points than Durant this year and throughout their careers on a per-shot basis.  Curry is also a better free throw shooter.

--- End quote ---

This is due to the weight of the 3 point shot.

I think i more meant in terms of "how you want it where you want it" as Reggie would say.   Durant can score in all ways that you can score in basketball and do it as good or better than the "best" at that particular aspect, and he plays defense.

Harden to me as you said while is a great and effective player he seems to exist in a loop hole an exploitation sure you still have to make the shot and he does that but he is and his team's mission is singular and if that isn't working then well, they lose and even when it is working they still get beat by better teams.

Durant is one of those players like Lebron that is supremely skilled and supremely athletically gifted together. So he can skill you or simply exploit his unique athletic attribute, you almost wait for him to beat himself more than actually beating him.  Ultimate 1 on 1 guy.  Kerr and the warriors and Durant himself have done a better than good job of "mixing" all things considered.

EastexHawg:

The effective field goal percentage stat exists because of the 3 point shot, obviously.  Still, it is a valid way of quantifying offensive production on a per-shot basis.  If I am shooting two pointers and making 50%, and you are shooting 3 pointers and making 40%, you are going to beat me like a tied up goat.  If we both shoot 100 times you are going to beat me 120-100.

Your effective field goal percentage will be 60%.

McKdaddy:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 15, 2019, 02:38:26 pm ---I want Durant on my team. Period.

I just don't want him playing point guard.

--- End quote ---


Agreed

311Hog:

dang that was a hellva game last night.  I don't think Portland gets swept but they might.

HognitiveDissonance:

I think Portland takes Game 3 fairly easily and then Game 4 will be a donnybrook like last night's game that could go either way.

311Hog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 17, 2019, 02:15:00 pm ---I think Portland takes Game 3 fairly easily and then Game 4 will be a donnybrook like last night's game that could go either way.

--- End quote ---

dunno them dudes hit what 19 3's ? and still lost lol.  i guess if they break the NBA play off 3's record they might.

EastexHawg:

Golden State is now 29-1 when Curry plays but Durant sits out.  That's too big a sample size to be dismissed.  I'm not saying they are better without Durant, but they obviously don't suffer much.  How many teams at full strength have ever won at a .967 clip over 30 games?

Durant was "dominating" the playoffs by scoring 34.2 ppg.  Since he went out Curry has averaged 35.3.  Last night he had 8 rebounds and 8 assists to go with 37 points.  Preconceived notions might need to be reexamined.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on May 17, 2019, 02:34:27 pm ---Golden State is now 29-1 when Curry plays but Durant sits out.  That's too big a sample size to be dismissed.  I'm not saying they are better without Durant, but they obviously don't suffer much.  How many teams at full strength have ever won at a .967 clip over 30 games?

Durant was "dominating" the playoffs by scoring 34.2 ppg.  Since he went out Curry has averaged 35.3.  Last night he had 8 rebounds and 8 assists to go with 37 points.  Preconceived notions might need to be reexamined.

--- End quote ---

If they were 30 games consecutively, then yes.

Golden State without him has a better flow; that does not make them a better team over the aggregate.

Its a testament to just how great they are when they can elevate their games for stretches when he's gone, to recapture the magic that was their early great runs--  but they're not qualitatively better-- or quantitatively-- without him, over the long term.   



EastexHawg:

You have an all-time great in Curry deferring and taking a supporting role when Durant is in the lineup.  With Durant out Steph takes back the lead role without missing a beat.  Golden State is Curry's team.  Everyone knows that, including both Curry and Durant.

Kevin is a great talent, but he is a more selfish superstar than Steph.  That's not going to change.  It was the source of strife between Durant and Westbrook when both were with the Thunder.  KD thought Westbrook shot too much and was selfish with the ball, meaning Durant wanted the ball and those shots for himself.

The Warriors don't need that undercurrent.

HognitiveDissonance:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on May 17, 2019, 08:51:34 pm ---You have an all-time great in Curry deferring and taking a supporting role when Durant is in the lineup.  With Durant out Steph takes back the lead role without missing a beat.  Golden State is Curry's team.  Everyone knows that, including both Curry and Durant.

Kevin is a great talent, but he is a more selfish superstar than Steph.  That's not going to change.  It was the source of strife between Durant and Westbrook when both were with the Thunder.  KD thought Westbrook shot too much and was selfish with the ball, meaning Durant wanted the ball and those shots for himself.

The Warriors don't need that undercurrent.

--- End quote ---
James Harden is the same way.
I don't like to watch Houston too much.
Just a lot of isolation...Harden going 1-on-1 while the others spread out hoping to touch the ball.
He's a great player but it's boring, and they haven't won anything with that style.

Buff:

GS doesn’t need Durant to win a title this year.

PonderinHog:


--- Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on May 17, 2019, 02:15:00 pm ---I think Portland takes Game 3 fairly easily and then Game 4 will be a donnybrook like last night's game that could go either way.

--- End quote ---
Upon further review...



Stick a fork in Portland.  They are done.

TomasPistola:

I think Portland wins game 4. The Dubs will slack off and lose one.

EastexHawg:

It's almost like someone has been reading this thread...

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2019-stephen-curry-warriors-reminding-us-that-kevin-durant-is-more-luxury-than-necessity/

EastexHawg:

Wow.  Draymond was tremendous and Steph Curry showed that while he has been deferring to Durant, when he wants and needs to he can still be the greatest player in the NBA and take over a playoff series.

Golden State's will to win is tremendous.

McKdaddy:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on May 21, 2019, 12:11:57 am ---Wow.  Draymond was tremendous and Steph Curry showed that while he has been deferring to Durant, when he wants and needs to he can still be the greatest player in the NBA and take over a playoff series.

Golden State's will to win is tremendous.

--- End quote ---

Quite impressive that having a future HOF'er, Durant, on the court is a luxury and not a necessity.  I'm no GSW fan, but it was fun watching them play as they did before KD arrived.

EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: McKdaddy on May 21, 2019, 08:34:50 am ---Quite impressive that having a future HOF'er, Durant, on the court is a luxury and not a necessity.  I'm no GSW fan, but it was fun watching them play as they did before KD arrived.

--- End quote ---

I agree.  Durant is immensely talented, but in the Warriors' case it is entirely possible that the whole without him is greater than the sum of the parts with him.  Great (Curry) to outstanding (Green, Thompson) players have not only their roles, but their entire attitudes and approaches to the game change when the offense goes from motion-based and sharing to clear outs and standing around.

That statement may not make sense on the face of it, but the evidence supports it.  Sure, the numbers are there...Curry averages 36 ppg without Durant, Draymond takes his game to another level, and Thompson becomes more integral to the offense...not to mention that the Warriors were 6-4 in the playoffs this year in games Durant played and finished, 6-0 without him...but anyone who watches Golden State on a regular basis can see the difference in the way they play and how much the team seems to relish going back to its "roots".

HognitiveDissonance:

People enjoy watching Golden State play, because they play the right way. Movement, sharing the ball, dictated by their point guard.

I don't doubt there's a little chip on their shoulder about 'not having' KD around, and woe is us mentality. They are probably out to prove a point, and not just win a series.

I was wrong that Portland would take a game.

I love watching GS play.

They could still have the best of both worlds if Steve Kerr would insist their point guard lead the show instead of Durant doing his thing. KD would still get his, anyway.

#1 STUNNA:

hes a luxury not a necessity...

311Hog:

and i don't think he is coming back even if the finals go 7 games i don't think KD will be able to return.

I just hope Iggy does, with Iggy i think GSW can win it, not sure which team is the better match up but i expect the bucks to win the east.

Buff:

Losing KD has made me appreciate the GSW again.  They scored a lot of points, but he killed the flow of the games. 

Oddly enough, that traitorous b-word didn't hog the ball nearly as much at OKC.  It's almost like he's bolder when he knows the team can win the games without him.  I still contend that the Thunder could have won it all in 2016 had he tougher in the Golden State series. 

checkraiser88:

The nba media heads are basically calling for KD to come back for their own interests at this point. After tonight's loss by GS the narrative is he'll be back next game. I wonder how bad his injury really is going into free agency?

EastexHawg:

Toronto shot and played well.  The Warriors were a 35 win team plus Steph Curry.  If Thompson comes back that will change.  If he can't Draymond and Livingston are going to have to shoot better.  Cousins was terrible.

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