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Author Topic: Harden  (Read 940 times)

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EastexHawg

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Harden
« on: January 30, 2019, 09:29:58 pm »

Has there been a bigger ball hog in recent history?  He has taken well over 100 shots... that's better than 10%...more than anyone in the league.  He went 11 for 32 last night, 6 of 18 from three, but at least he got his 30 point game.

If he had stayed with the Thunder the franchise would have had to petition the league to play with two basketballs and three goals so he and Westbrook could each dribble for 20 seconds before shooting.
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 10:00:34 pm »

His usage rate is dumb, but it does afford the Rockets the best chance at winning they have right now.

Chris Paul should  return soon, and it'll drop a bit just out of the necessity of having  the ball in his hands as he plays back into form.  The one thing I am looking forward to is when Harden makes his annual playoff disappearing act, and the Rockets go back to being irrelevant.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 10:46:25 pm »

How many other players might be able to lead the league in scoring if they dribbled and shot as much as Harden does?  Keep in mind that his shot attempts do not reflect the number of times that he shoots but ends up going to the free throw line.

I just find what his game has evolved into to be selfish and overrated.
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 04:42:35 am »

How many other players might be able to lead the league in scoring if they dribbled and shot as much as Harden does?  Keep in mind that his shot attempts do not reflect the number of times that he shoots but ends up going to the free throw line.

I just find what his game has evolved into to be selfish and overrated.

Not as many as you think.   In part because of the calls he gets, but also in part because he's a remarkably effective isolation scorer.     Most people are Carmello with that kind of a situation, not Harden.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Harden
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 10:30:10 pm »

Even if he isn't shooting 50%, you have to simply add in his free throws as normal shots because of the redonkulous quantity he gets every game. He still has the 4th most assists in the league, so it's not like he's never sharing it. Still has the best real +/- primarily due to his offense (thought he D has gotten loads better the last year or two) and 2nd most win shares in the league. Just problematic that Chris Paul is taking a sharp dive due to his age. Chris Paul somehow always seems to screw things up when he is in a situation to take his team all the way.
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Buff

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Re: Harden
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 10:35:47 pm »

Steph Curry mimicked Harden's step-back, and got called for a travel.  Harden gets more dream calls from the officials than even Lebron ever thought possible.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Harden
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 11:54:00 am »

He couldn’t spell defense if his life depended on it.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 03:48:32 pm »

He's now obsessed with the consecutive 30 point game streak and is going to dribble and shoot as many times as it takes to keep it going.  If I coached another team I would force the ball out of his hands by double teaming him with my best defender and another player.  For instance, if I were Steve Kerr I would put Klay Thompson on him and have Iguodala, Draymond Green, or another player double him every time he got inside half court.  Force him to pass the ball and make someone else make shots.

Regardless of whether they did or not, I would do everything possible to make sure Harden didn't score 30.

I remember the quote from Pete Rose when Gene Garber of the Braves got him out in his last at-bat to break Pete's 44 game hit streak.  Rose was obviously somewhat irritated when he said, "He was pitching me like it was the 7th game of the World Series"...to which Garber said, "Yeah, well he was batting like it was the 7th game of the World Series."
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 05:15:27 pm »

He's now obsessed with the consecutive 30 point game streak and is going to dribble and shoot as many times as it takes to keep it going.  If I coached another team I would force the ball out of his hands by double teaming him with my best defender and another player.  For instance, if I were Steve Kerr I would put Klay Thompson on him and have Iguodala, Draymond Green, or another player double him every time he got inside half court.  Force him to pass the ball and make someone else make shots.

Regardless of whether they did or not, I would do everything possible to make sure Harden didn't score 30.

I remember the quote from Pete Rose when Gene Garber of the Braves got him out in his last at-bat to break Pete's 44 game hit streak.  Rose was obviously somewhat irritated when he said, "He was pitching me like it was the 7th game of the World Series"...to which Garber said, "Yeah, well he was batting like it was the 7th game of the World Series."

I'd let him take his 38 shots to get his 30 points, and focus on using that advantage to win the game.
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hogbud

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Re: Harden
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 06:17:13 am »

NBA version of the designated hitter
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Harden
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 02:42:29 pm »

Dang, I didn't think I'd be the guy that would end up having to defend Harden but you all are ridiculous.

NBA version of the designated hitter

He couldn’t spell defense if his life depended on it.

DH's only play offense. Harden is currently 2nd in total steals league-wide and #2 in blocks among PG's. Harden's defensive real +/- is in the top 20% for his position. Where the heck are you guys getting this? This isn't 2015 Shaqtin a fool. Do you even watch the games or look at any analysis whatsoever?

I'd let him take his 38 shots to get his 30 points, and focus on using that advantage to win the game.

He's only had one game all year where his shots were higher than his points. His average for the year is 37 points on 24 shots. Michael Jordan's best statistical year EVER was 37 points on 28 shots per game. And ballhog Harden gets 60% more assists per game than MJ did in that MVP season of his, all while playing only 36 minutes per game while Jordan played 40. But yeah, Harden is making his team lose, lol. This Rocket's team lost two of their best defenders to free agency, haven't had Clint Capela for over a month to injury, haven't had an aging/injured Chris Paul half the season, and they are still 5th in the West. Harden is the only thing keeping them relevant. The GSW do not want them in the second round.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:54:44 pm by Adam Stokes »
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 03:47:58 pm »

Harden's effective field goal percentage is .546.  Kevin Durant's is .560.  Steph Curry's is .624.  What that basically means is that if numerous other players in the league simply brought the ball downcourt and dribbled until they shot as often as Harden does they would score as many points as he does.  For instance, if Curry shot 24.2 times per game as Harden does he would score 30.2 points on field goals alone. 

Why doesn't anyone else do it?  Is it because they are incapable of dribbling and shooting that much?  No, it's because team basketball will almost always beat one man...and because they aren't ball hogs who are on a mission to score 30 points every night so they can chase some sort of record.

Golden State and the Rockets have played virtually the same schedule.  The Warriors have won eight more games.  They have been better in the regular season and they will be better in the playoffs.  I know the answer is going to be, "Yeah, but Golden State has Curry, Thompson, and Durant!"  The Warriors won a championship and made another Finals appearance before Durant came over.  In fact, Harden at one time played with both Durant and Russell Westbrook.  How many championships did they win? 

Houston isn't going to win anything this year, but that will be fine for Harden because he will score 30 points in every game and win another MVP playing the same style of ball that got them a bunch of regular season wins but a trip home in the playoffs last year.  Is Harden a great talent?  Yes.  Is he doing something that no one else in the league could do?  No.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 04:25:34 pm »

I'm not even a huge Kevin Durant fan, but Harden has taken 221 more shots from the field.  Durant would only have to make 36 of his next 221 shots...16%...to have the same field goal percentage as Harden.

Dribble.  Dribble.  Dribble.  Dribble.  Dribble.  Dribble.  Shoot.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Harden
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 04:44:41 pm »

Harden's effective field goal percentage is .546.  Kevin Durant's is .560.  Steph Curry's is .624.  What that basically means is that if numerous other players in the league simply brought the ball downcourt and dribbled until they shot as often as Harden does they would score as many points as he does.  For instance, if Curry shot 24.2 times per game as Harden does he would score 30.2 points on field goals alone. 

Why doesn't anyone else do it?  Is it because they are incapable of dribbling and shooting that much?  No, it's because team basketball will almost always beat one man...and because they aren't ball hogs who are on a mission to score 30 points every night so they can chase some sort of record.

Golden State and the Rockets have played virtually the same schedule.  The Warriors have won eight more games.  They have been better in the regular season and they will be better in the playoffs.  I know the answer is going to be, "Yeah, but Golden State has Curry, Thompson, and Durant!"  The Warriors won a championship and made another Finals appearance before Durant came over.  In fact, Harden at one time played with both Durant and Russell Westbrook.  How many championships did they win? 

Houston isn't going to win anything this year, but that will be fine for Harden because he will score 30 points in every game and win another MVP playing the same style of ball that got them a bunch of regular season wins but a trip home in the playoffs last year.  Is Harden a great talent?  Yes.  Is he doing something that no one else in the league could do?  No.

No duh the answer is that Warriors have better players. They have five players who were all-stars last year, three who were starters in the game. I would certainly hope they have a better record against equal competition. Houston didn't get sent home in the playoffs because of Harden's style of play, they were up 3-2 on them in the playoffs last year and led in game 6 until Chris Paul got injured. Harden's style of play was the reason they were 2nd best opponent the Warriors have faced during the team's dynasty.

Are you really knocking Harden for not winning a Championship when he was 22? The OKC big-three were the ripe old age of 22 (Harden), 23 (Durant), and 23 (Westbrook) in the year they lost to the Heat in the finals. You can fault them for not being able pull it off, but I doubt anyone else will. The GSW dynasty wouldn't even exist had OKC not traded Harden.

Harden doesn't have a single elite 3pt shooter to pass to on the whole team. If Harden had a Durant or Curry or Thompson quality player to pass to, his assists and eFG would be higher, but his best 3 pt shooters are who, Gerald green shooting 35% or fricking PJ Tucker and Danuel House? The more shots you take the lower the quality of shots are going to be, but Harden's efficiency is still elite even with his workload.

Houston isn't going to win it all this year, but it won't be because of Harden.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 04:57:16 pm »

Harden has shot 145 more times than any other player in the league.  He is a ball hog plain and simple.  He dribbles up court and shoots.  That's his game.  You can believe he is doing it all for the betterment of his team if you want. 

At least when Jordan held the ball as much as Harden does he was winning championships...as in every year.  He was also a great defensive player. 

Again, Harden is a great player...but he is not doing anything unique, meaning no one else in the league could do it.

By the way, you are the one who brought up the Warriors comparison by saying they don't want Houston in the playoffs.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:09:21 pm by EastexHawg »
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 06:23:57 pm »

Harden has shot 145 more times than any other player in the league.  He is a ball hog plain and simple.  He dribbles up court and shoots.  That's his game.  You can believe he is doing it all for the betterment of his team if you want. 

At least when Jordan held the ball as much as Harden does he was winning championships...as in every year.  He was also a great defensive player. 

Again, Harden is a great player...but he is not doing anything unique, meaning no one else in the league could do it.

By the way, you are the one who brought up the Warriors comparison by saying they don't want Houston in the playoffs.


Yeah he is doing something no one else could.    Nobody is as efficient without the ball being passed to them, as Harden is.

Everyone else gets the benefit of catch and shoot, which is huge.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 09:00:18 pm »

Harden has 20 points against the Mavericks on 6 of 19 shooting...3 of 13 from three...with nine minutes to go.  It's obviously time to quit passing and shoot every time downcourt to get his 30.

The Rockets are up by 17 and he has already played 30 minutes, but this is an emergency.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 09:21:53 pm »

Yippee!  The Rockets fouled the Mavericks within seconds of every possession down the stretch, the exact opposite of what a team with a 12-15 point lead would normally do, and Harden played into the last 40 seconds of a 17 point game to get his 30 points.

The world is now safe for democracy.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Harden
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 06:16:37 am »

Yippee!  The Rockets fouled the Mavericks within seconds of every possession down the stretch, the exact opposite of what a team with a 12-15 point lead would normally do, and Harden played into the last 40 seconds of a 17 point game to get his 30 points.

The world is now safe for democracy.

Haha, I was checking the box score of the game just because I had gone out of my way spending way too much time defending him, and thought "yeah this isn't helping my case." But hey, when your worst individual game in two months is grabbing five steals, still shooting over 50% eFG and your team wins, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:53:24 am by Adam Stokes »
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 09:23:33 am »

Haha, I was checking the box score of the game just because I had gone out of my way spending way too much time defending him, and thought "yeah this isn't helping my case." But hey, when your worst individual game in two months is grabbing five steals, still shooting over 50% eFG and your team wins, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And when your team acts like it is behind and intentionally fouls the opponent within seconds of every possession...despite having a 15 point lead with less than two minutes to go...so you can get enough possessions to get your precious 30 points it certainly doesn't hurt.

How many times have other top players in the league sat out most of the fourth quarter, maybe even the entire fourth quarter, when their teams have big leads?  But not Harden.  He is in there jacking up threes in the final minute so he can get his 30 points.  Chris Paul even said after the game than they were trying to be sure Harden got his 30 points.

His teammates foul, Harden shoots and gets the glory.  What a team game this is.

He's a great player, but as I said this has turned into a quest for James Harden to keep a streak going.  It reminds me of a couple of years ago when the Thunder were actively trying to get Triple Double more rebounds...such as all the bigs like Adams evacuating the paint on opponent free throws so Westbrook could get more rebounds.
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 09:29:20 am »

Harden is such an unbelievable whiner, amazing player whom i cannot stand because of the whining about calls, and blatant traveling.
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Buff

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Re: Harden
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 04:54:18 pm »

Let's focus on real greatness.....

Westbrook is the record leader in consecutive triple-doubles, and still the only player to record a perfect triple-double.

Harden's points crusade is a yawner.  He ain't no Kobe.
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 05:00:57 pm »

Let's focus on real greatness.....

Westbrook is the record leader in consecutive triple-doubles, and still the only player to record a perfect triple-double.

Harden's points crusade is a yawner.  He ain't no Kobe.

It isn't every day someone breaks one of Wilt's records.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Harden
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 06:57:03 pm »

I’m excited to see that Eastex has come to the realization that winning is more important than individual stats.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 08:07:10 pm »

It isn't every day someone breaks one of Wilt's records.

He didn't break Wilt's record.  Chamberlain scored 30 or more in 65 straight games.  This is Wilt's second longest consecutive game streak.

But don't worry, Harden will shoot as many times as it takes and play until the last 30 seconds of blowouts if that's what it takes to get there.  This is a quest now.
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 08:27:25 pm »

He didn't break Wilt's record.  Chamberlain scored 30 or more in 65 straight games.  This is Wilt's second longest consecutive game streak.

But don't worry, Harden will shoot as many times as it takes and play until the last 30 seconds of blowouts if that's what it takes to get there.  This is a quest now.

Westbrook did.  We're talking about Westbrook and his 10 consecutive Triple Doubles, breaking Wilt's mark of 9.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 09:09:39 pm »

Westbrook did.  We're talking about Westbrook and his 10 consecutive Triple Doubles, breaking Wilt's mark of 9.

That's quite an accomplishment.  On the other hand, did he really do something Wilt never did or did he break a record based on recorded history?

The NBA didn't record blocked shots as an official statistic until 1973-74, the year after Chamberlain retired.  A while back I read an article in which an examination of records from 112 games Wilt played showed that he averaged close to 9 blocks in those games.  According to the account from the game the first time Wilt faced fellow Hall of Fame center Nate Thurmond he blocked the first nine shots Thurmond took from inside the lane.

Considering Wilt scored in double figures in every game for probably most every season he played and failed to get 10 or more rebounds in only 11 games in his entire career, what are the odds that he might have had some combination of 10 or more points, rebounds, and either blocks or assists in games that we don't know about?
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ErieHog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 09:12:37 pm »

That's quite an accomplishment.  On the other hand, did he really do something Wilt never did or did he break a record based on recorded history?

The NBA didn't record blocked shots as an official statement until 1973-74, the year after Chamberlain retired.  A while back I read an article in which an examination of records from 112 games Wilt played showed that he averaged close to 9 blocks in those games.  According to the account from the game the first time Wilt faced fellow Hall of Fame center Nate Thurmond he blocked the first nine shots Thurmond took from inside the lane.

Considering Wilt scored in double figures in every game he played for probably most ever season he played and failed to get 10 or more rebounds in only 11 games in his entire career, what are the odds that he might have had some combination of 10 or more points, rebounds, and either blocks or assists in games that we don't know about?

The odds are actually not all that good that it would impact the record.   They get into factoral math and even then, quadrupling the likelihood on the basis that he might focus on defense when his passing or rebounding was off, still puts the chances at safely under 1%.

Its still remarkable.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2019, 11:04:15 am »

Harden's streak ended last night at 32 games, almost halfway to Chamberlain's record of 65 straight.

I heard during a telecast a few nights ago that during one season Wilt only failed to score 30 or more twice in 80 games.  Those two were against Bill Russell and the Celtics, and in those games he had 28 and 26.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 01:17:23 pm by EastexHawg »
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Buff

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Re: Harden
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2019, 05:43:37 pm »

Are any refs newly-unemployed this morning?
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2019, 01:05:32 pm »

KD out i guess it doesn't get any better for Harden then this.
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Buff

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Re: Harden
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2019, 10:56:39 pm »

The Rockets are pathetic.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Harden
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2019, 10:58:45 pm »

Choke job. Chris Paul may go down as the best player to never play in the finals.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2019, 11:10:20 pm »

Another legendary performance for Steph Curry with 33 points in the second half, 23 in the 4th quarter.  The Splash Brothers showed they will be fine next year if Durant moves on.
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2019, 12:57:52 am »

Choke job. Chris Paul may go down as the best player to never play in the finals.
chris paul needs to learn to shut the hell up maybe he won't tug on super man's cape.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2019, 04:55:15 pm »

chris paul needs to learn to shut the hell up maybe he won't tug on super man's cape.

Remember when he was with the Clippers and he found a back passageway into the opponents' locker room?  He went over there after the game like he was going to rumble.  I wish someone like Draymond Green would have knocked his big mouthed ass out. 

The Warriors absolutely hated those Clippers teams and pounded them every chance they got.  Paul is the poor man's Steph Curry...unless Harden is.
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Re: Harden
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2019, 02:05:16 pm »

Harden choked, again.
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2019, 09:12:05 am »

Remember when he was with the Clippers and he found a back passageway into the opponents' locker room?  He went over there after the game like he was going to rumble.  I wish someone like Draymond Green would have knocked his big mouthed ass out. 

The Warriors absolutely hated those Clippers teams and pounded them every chance they got.  Paul is the poor man's Steph Curry...unless Harden is.

yeah Paul is definitely the guy that talks all kinda smoke but when the moment comes his team does not rise.  Paul and Harden  are perfect for each other though ISO ball massive ego "i just gotta dribble and beg for the call harder" then we will beat them dang Warriors.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2019, 09:23:34 am »

Paul and Harden  are perfect for each other though ISO ball massive ego "i just gotta dribble and beg for the call harder" then we will beat them dang Warriors.

The end of game 5 and game 6 were interesting for multiple reasons, one being the fact that with Durant in the lineup for the Warriors both teams were running a lot of iso.  Once Durant went out Golden State reverted to the motion offense they ran so effectively before KD and closed out a series they looked to be in serious danger of losing.

This is just my opinion, but I think the "original" Warriors (Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Iguodala for as long as he continues to play) will enjoy going back to the style that won the title in 2015 and put them in the Finals again in 2016 if and when Durant moves on.
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2019, 09:27:12 am »

The end of game 5 and game 6 were interesting for multiple reasons, one being the fact that with Durant in the lineup for the Warriors both teams were running a lot of iso.  Once Durant went out Golden State reverted to the motion offense they ran so effectively before KD and closed out a series they looked to be in serious danger of losing.

This is just my opinion, but I think the "original" Warriors (Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Iguodala for as long as he continues to play) will enjoy going back to the style that won the title in 2015 and put them in the Finals again in 2016 if and when Durant moves on.

oh i agree the "OG warriors" are the best warriors. I mean Durant is an amazing player there is no doubt Boogie is to, but you are correct in that the style of play is different from the "formula" when those two are in the rotation. Sometimes it works the warriors favor IE Durant takes over a game and basically wins it on his own, but the down side is that the crisp nature of their offense suffers if KD isn't hitting.

I don't know if they can beat the Blazers without KD and Boogie the guards will cancel each other out that would be perfect for KD to come in and be that nightmare matchup.  I just love watching play off Iggy the guy seems ageless.  I think when he finally hangs them up is when the Warrior dynasty will end.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Harden
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2019, 10:01:39 am »

Curry has to stay out of foul trouble.  He's been getting a lot of strips and deflections, but with Durant out the Warriors can't afford to have him reaching in and jumping at shooters so much.

I think Golden State wins the series against Portland with or without Durant.  The "OG" Warriors have their swagger back.
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311Hog

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Re: Harden
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2019, 10:27:25 am »

Curry has to stay out of foul trouble.  He's been getting a lot of strips and deflections, but with Durant out the Warriors can't afford to have him reaching in and jumping at shooters so much.

I think Golden State wins the series against Portland with or without Durant.  The "OG" Warriors have their swagger back.
yeah that is a pretty good bet that this series win could spark a high level of dominance from the warriors, could be a let down as well.  Curry is definitely key or the key imho i don't think the blazers will harass him near as much as the rockets did.
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