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Author Topic: Patrick Mahomes  (Read 6323 times)

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PonderinHog

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2019, 12:38:31 pm »

Quarterbacks never to have played in a super bowl:
1.   Dan Fouts
2.   Warren Moon
3.   Sonny Jurgensen
4.   Randall Cunningham
5.   Phillip Rivers
6.   Bernie Kosar
7.   Mark Brunell
8.   Dave Krieg
9.   John Brodie
10.   Tony Romo
11.   Vinnie Testeverde
12.   Ken Anderson
13.   Eddie Le Baron (sentimental favorite).

Quarterbacks who played in but did no twin a super bowl:
1.   Dan Marino
2.   Jim Kelly
3.   Fran Tarkenton
4.   Steve McNair
5.   Donovan McNabb

No greatness there?  As a GM would you have wanted any of these quarterbacks on your team in their prime?
Nothing but a bunch of stat-stuffers!   8)
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2019, 12:46:26 pm »

Mahomes will ultimately be judged on winning. Easttex and I have been lectured for years on our defense of Romo that this is the case. In kc, he may be remembered as the best qb in their history, but on a wider scale you have to win championships.

In Dallas, most people don’t consider Romo in their top 2 due to his lack of postseason success even though his stats are much better than Staubach and Aikman. That’s just how it is.

Romo had 14 years to win something..Lets give Patrick some time before we label him anything.  At 23 Romo was just a bench riding water boy clip board guy for Dallas. 
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2019, 01:17:37 pm »

Romo had 14 years to win something..Lets give Patrick some time before we label him anything.  At 23 Romo was just a bench riding water boy clip board guy for Dallas.

I’ve already stated several times how young mahomes is. You guys are the ones anointing him already.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2019, 01:22:33 pm »

Nothing but a bunch of stat-stuffers!   8)

Yep, they sure are good at fantasy football. I’d rather have guys that actually led their teams to championships.

There is clear separation in greatness between the Montana’s, Manning’s, Brady’s etc of the world and the aforementioned guys.

Ask yourself this, who do you believe is the greatest qb in nfl history? Chances are it’s not anyone that doesn’t have a title or two.
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GammaRayzorback

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2019, 02:17:24 pm »

W/L is not a good measure of a QB, and neither is how many postseason or superbowl wins a QB has.  That is a team effort.  In fact, while a QB may be the single most important position on the field, it is not the only position on the field that matters, and the QB has essentially no control over what his defense does.  The fact that Mahomes put up the numbers he did with this defense is actually more impressive than almost anything else in the NFL, given that he had a lot less time to be on the field than most other teams in NFL history.  So let's look at some numbers.

KC's defense ranked in the bottom 10 in total yards and yards/game in NFL history.  Mind you, that is the bottom 1% of all NFL teams ever.  They gave up the most 1st downs in NFL history.  And while they tied for the most sacks in the NFL this year, those sacks were relatively meaningless over the course of a game and the season.  The reason why they were meaningless is that the KC defense allowed an average of 6.6 plays/drive, which is the second most in NFL history.  That means that while they were able to record a lot of sacks, unless those came on 3rd downs, they were unable to get the opposing offense off the field.  The main result of all of that was to waste a lot of game time and keep the ball out of Mahomes' hands.  All things considered, the KC defense this year was in the bottom 1% of defenses all time.  No team with a defense anywhere near as bad as KC's has had a winning record, and the fact that the Chiefs were one of the best teams in the NFL this year actually says a lot about Mahomes.

So, how does the defense affect Mahomes' production?  Let's compare his season to what are probably considered the three greatest passing offenses in NFL history prior to this year: 2007 Patriots (Brady),  2011 Saints (Brees), and 2013 Broncos (Manning).

The 2007 Patriots had a stellar defense.  In fact Brady got a lot of credit for how that team performed, but a dig into the numbers reveals that his best passing season was actually helped out a lot by one of the best defenses in the NFL at that time.  Arguably it was the defense that led them to the Super Bowl that year, not Brady.
Here are the relevant stats:
TOP: 521 minutes, 27 s
offensive plays: 1058
pass attempts/completions: 578/398
pass yards/tds: 4806/50
pass completion %: 68.9
play rate: 2.03 plays/min
yards per attempt: 8.3
passing TD rate: 1 every 11.6 passes

Brees in 2011 set the passing yards record (at the time):
TOP: 511 minutes, 38 s
offensive plays: 1117
pass attempts/completions: 657/468
pass yards/tds: 5476/46
pass completion %: 71.2
play rate: 2.18 plays/min
yards per attempt: 8.3
passing TD rate: 1 every 14 passes

Manning in 2013 set both passing yards record and TD record:
TOP: 448 minutes, 17 s
offensive plays: 1156
pass attempts/completions: 659/450
pass yards/tds: 5477/55
pass completion: %: 68.3
play rate: 2.37 plays/min
yards per attempt: 8.3
passing td rate: 1 td every 11.6 passes

and Mahomes in 2018:
TOP: 467 minutes, 1 s
offensive plays: 996
pass attempts/completions: 580/383
pass yards/tds: 5097/50
pass completion %: 66.0
play rate: 2.13 plays/min
yards per attempt: 8.8
passing TD rate: 1 TD every 11.6 passes


It's clear that Mahomes had much less total time to work with in the season.  In fact, if you account for the difference in time these different offenses had to work with, their average rate of running an offensive play, and how often each team passes as a part of their offense, you can adjust for the effect of the defense on the passing game.

For example, the 2007 Patriots' offense had the ball for 54 minutes, 26 s more than the 2018 KC offense.  If KC had that additional TOP (in other words, if KC had a defense like the 2007 Patriots), that would have translated into 116 more offensive plays, 67 of which would have been pass plays.  That would have resulted in an addition 590 yards and 6 TDs for Mahomes, resulting in 5687 total passing yards and 56 TDs, breaking both of Manning's records.

The 2011 Saints offense had the ball for 44 minutes, 37 seconds longer than Mahomes and the Chiefs.  The Saints defense, btw, was relatively average that season.  If Mahomes had that TOP, the offense would have had 95 more plays, 55 of which would have been pass plays, resulting in 486 more yards and 5 more TDs. That would bring his total to 5583 yards and 55 TDs.

The 2013 Broncos offense had the ball for 21 minutes, 16 s longer than the 2018 Chiefs, (Broncos defense was about average).  The Broncos offense, though, was amazingly fast at running plays at 2.37 plays/min.  I haven't checked to see if this a record, but it's surely going to be close if it's not.  Because they ran such a fast offense, they were able to fit in a lot more plays than Mahomes/KC could have.  The TOP would have led to 45 more plays for KC, 26 more pass plays for Mahomes, resulting in 228 more yards and 2 more TDs.  Mahomes total would have been 5325 yards and 52 TDs, short of both records mainly because the 2013 Broncos offense ran plays so quickly.

This is all projecting what Mahomes could have done with each of those teams' defenses and the resulting TOP.  But what would each of those QB's numbers look like if they had the TOP that Mahomes had to work with?

2007 Brady would have had 498 fewer yards and 5 fewer TDs, resulting in 4308 yards, 45 TDs.
2011 Brees would have had 475 fewer yards and 4 fewer TDs, resulting in 5001 yards, 42 TDs.
2013 Manning would have had 238 fewer yards and 3 fewer TDs, resulting in 5239 yards and 52 TDs.

That is all to say that a QB can only work with what he is given, and if he has a very bad defense, that is going to limit what he can do.  Add to this the fact that Mahomes had more yards per attempt, had a higher passing TD rate, is mobile and durable enough to run for TDs when needed, and of course has intangible qualities that sets him apart from some of the other QBs in this list.  It's pretty clear that he is only behind 2013 Manning in having the best season for a QB in NFL history.  Oh, and it it only his first year, so he has plenty of room for improvement.

99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2019, 02:33:23 pm »

I’ve already stated several times how young mahomes is. You guys are the ones anointing him already.

really.. anointed.. ha.. the kid has almost done the unheard of at 23 in the NFL.. no one has said he's the greatest yet...lighten up  ;)
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2019, 02:39:27 pm »

really.. anointed.. ha.. the kid has almost done the unheard of at 23 in the NFL.. no one has said he's the greatest yet...lighten up  ;)

Haha. Really?  Read the post literally right above you.
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2019, 02:44:02 pm »

Haha. Really?  Read the post literally right above you.

Those are just numbers.. like them or not.. His numbers compared to other great QB's are just numbers.. agree?
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sowmonella

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2019, 02:55:33 pm »

Quarterbacks never to have played in a super bowl:
1.   Dan Fouts
2.   Warren Moon
3.   Sonny Jurgensen
4.   Randall Cunningham
5.   Phillip Rivers
6.   Bernie Kosar
7.   Mark Brunell
8.   Dave Krieg
9.   John Brodie
10.   Tony Romo
11.   Vinnie Testeverde
12.   Ken Anderson
13.   Eddie Le Baron (sentimental favorite).

Quarterbacks who played in but did no twin a super bowl:
1.   Dan Marino
2.   Jim Kelly
3.   Fran Tarkenton
4.   Steve McNair
5.   Donovan McNabb

No greatness there?  As a GM would you have wanted any of these quarterbacks on your team in their prime?


Ken Anderson was an MVP and played in a Super Bowl throwing for 300 yds and a 73.5% completion rate.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2019, 02:58:48 pm »

Those are just numbers.. like them or not.. His numbers compared to other great QB's are just numbers.. agree?

His numbers are absolutely great. I’m not sure how many times I have to post that.
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #110 on: January 27, 2019, 03:00:34 pm »

His numbers are absolutely great. I’m not sure how many times I have to post that.

You also say he hasn't won a big game.. you mean the AFC championship game at age 23  ?? Came back and then lost in OT and never got the ball   
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2019, 03:05:03 pm »

You also say he hasn't won a big game.. you mean the AFC championship game at age 23  ?? Came back and then lost in OT and never got the ball

Lost being the key word there. And if he could’ve led his team to a single first half point in that game, they’d still be playing.

I mean unless you want to count the divisional home game against the colts, my statement is true.
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CandleStick

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2019, 03:06:43 pm »

Lost being the key word there. And if he could’ve led his team to a single first half point in that game, they’d still be playing.

I mean unless you want to count the divisional home game against the colts, my statement is true.

Hey Starc, what's your record as a QB in college and the NFL? since you make it sound so easy to win and all.
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Mo_Better_Hogs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2019, 03:11:17 pm »

To say Mahomes wasn't really good at Tech is ridiculous. As someone who has lived where the sports press is dominated by the Big 12, not the SEC, the talk for years has been the wet-paper Tech defense. Of course, you don't have to be an expert to see that. But the depths of how bad they've been can't be exaggerated. Hey, make a stop! Just one! If they could, they would've had a pretty good record those years (including a win over OU) and Coach Bro would still be there.

I just remember how Mahomes dominated us, in the middle of our ugly 3-game losing streak. His running and throwing shed lots of light on the cracks in our defense that year. I probably had 20 people that next week come up and ask me "what the heck happened?" They weren't even that familiar with Mahomes yet. No one was, I don't think.
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2019, 03:13:46 pm »

Lost being the key word there. And if he could’ve led his team to a single first half point in that game, they’d still be playing.

I mean unless you want to count the divisional home game against the colts, my statement is true.

Joe had a great defenses at the 49ers , If the Chief had half that defense they would have walked to an NFL title this year...
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2019, 03:14:41 pm »

Hey Starc, what's your record as a QB in college and the NFL? since you make it sound so easy to win and all.

Nobody said it was easy. I said that’s the next step in his game. You really think he’s satisfied? Do you really think he’s not going to work on anything to get better?  I guarantee you he’s going to try and find everything he can possibly do to be more successful next year. And if he’s not, then kc will never win a championship.

You guys are like teenage girls at a boy band concert.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2019, 03:15:50 pm »

To say Mahomes wasn't really good at Tech is ridiculous. As someone who has lived where the sports press is dominated by the Big 12, not the SEC, the talk for years has been the wet-paper Tech defense. Of course, you don't have to be an expert to see that. But the depths of how bad they've been can't be exaggerated. Hey, make a stop! Just one! If they could, they would've had a pretty good record those years (including a win over OU) and Coach Bro would still be there.

I just remember how Mahomes dominated us, in the middle of our ugly 3-game losing streak. His running and throwing shed lots of light on the cracks in our defense that year. I probably had 20 people that next week come up and ask me "what the heck happened?" They weren't even that familiar with Mahomes yet. No one was, I don't think.

I didn’t say he wasn’t good at tech. He put up monster numbers in that system. I said he was 0-8 against ranked opponents at tech. That is a fact. A win at Fayetteville is hardly anything heisman worthy. Lol
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oldhawg

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2019, 03:17:20 pm »

Ken Anderson was an MVP and played in a Super Bowl throwing for 300 yds and a 73.5% completion rate.

My mistake.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2019, 03:18:17 pm »

Joe had a great defenses at the 49ers , If the Chief had half that defense they would have walked to an NFL title this year...

The chiefs (while really bad on defense), had a better yard per play defense than the rams this year. Yet only one of them is still playing.

I guess you can give yourself a “would’ve Lombardi” to make you feel better though.
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2019, 03:22:27 pm »

The chiefs (while really bad on defense), had a better yard per play defense than the rams this year. Yet only one of them is still playing.

I guess you can give yourself a “would’ve Lombardi” to make you feel better though.

Nobody in KC is saying that or thinking that to "Feel Better" it's all in your butt hurt mind.. why are you so bitter is the real question..
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2019, 03:26:56 pm »

Nobody in KC is saying that or thinking that to "Feel Better" it's all in your butt hurt mind.. why are you so bitter is the real question..

You literally just posted if the chiefs had Joe’s defenses, they WOULD HAVE walked to the nfl title.
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CandleStick

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2019, 03:28:50 pm »

Nobody in KC is saying that or thinking that to "Feel Better" it's all in your butt hurt mind.. why are you so bitter is the real question..

I asked a very similar question to starc of what did mahomes do to him but starc never gave an answer. Only thing he could say is my reading comprehension was bad. Dude is a joke

99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2019, 03:31:43 pm »

You literally just posted if the chiefs had Joe’s defenses, they WOULD HAVE walked to the nfl title.

yes I did, because it's true..In Joes 4 super Bowls Joes defense gave up 21-16-10 and 10.. That means Every game Mahomes has played in the NFL he would have won... Mahomes has scored more than 26 pts in every game he has played in the NFL..Just saying he didn't lose one game for the Chiefs..
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2019, 03:36:32 pm »

I asked a very similar question to starc of what did mahomes do to him but starc never gave an answer. Only thing he could say is my reading comprehension was bad. Dude is a joke

All I did was say one thing that he needs to improve. If you asked him, I’d be willing to bet he’d say he has lots of things to improve.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2019, 03:37:04 pm »

yes I did, because it's true..In Joes 4 super Bowls Joes defense gave up 21-16-10 and 10.. That means Every game Mahomes has played in the NFL he would have won... Mahomes has scored more than 26 pts in every game he has played in the NFL..Just saying he didn't lose one game for the Chiefs..

You just told me nobody is saying “would have” and yet here you are again saying it. Lmao
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2019, 03:40:54 pm »

All I did was say one thing that he needs to improve. If you asked him, I’d be willing to bet he’d say he has lots of things to improve.
And remind us of the one thing you think he needs to improve again at 23 ? 

All that are great at their craft will always say they can improve, you know why?  Because that mindset is what got them to where they are present day. 
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2019, 03:41:40 pm »

You just told me nobody is saying “would have” and yet here you are again saying it. Lmao

With a defense yes, are you struggling on here??  You realize Patrick doesn't play defense..Right...
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Mo_Better_Hogs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2019, 03:42:18 pm »

I didn’t say he wasn’t good at tech. He put up monster numbers in that system. I said he was 0-8 against ranked opponents at tech. That is a fact. A win at Fayetteville is hardly anything heisman worthy. Lol

My comment wasn't directed at you specifically. Someone else had a comment—"I don't recall Mahomes being a world beater at Tech." Which had more to do with Tech than him.

As you can see from his stats vs ranked teams, Tech losing those games wasn't his fault. He did his part. I think there was only one game where he wasn't good.
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2019, 03:44:41 pm »

My comment wasn't directed at you specifically. Someone else had a comment—"I don't recall Mahomes being a world beater at Tech." Which had more to do with Tech than him.

As you can see from his stats vs ranked teams, Tech losing those games wasn't his fault. He did his part. I think there was only one game where he wasn't good.

EXACTLY...A QB's job is to put points on the board...   NOT to play defense...
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Mo_Better_Hogs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2019, 03:51:49 pm »

EXACTLY...A QB's job is to put points on the board...   NOT to play defense...

Again, all Tech had to have was a so-so defense. Just anything but a bad one. They would have won a lot of important games.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #130 on: January 27, 2019, 04:07:22 pm »

probably gonna win another MVP today..
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #131 on: January 27, 2019, 04:10:11 pm »

probably gonna win another MVP today..

yeah but it's not a big game   ;)
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psychhog

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #132 on: January 27, 2019, 04:18:01 pm »

Lol this thread. I know I had some disagreement with something starcs said a while back in this thread but I don’t recall him or anyone else ever saying mahomes was not good.

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #133 on: January 27, 2019, 04:34:11 pm »

Lol this thread. I know I had some disagreement with something starcs said a while back in this thread but I don’t recall him or anyone else ever saying mahomes was not good.

Ah a voice of reason. Lol. Thank you sir.

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #134 on: January 27, 2019, 04:36:52 pm »

And remind us of the one thing you think he needs to improve again at 23 ? 

All that are great at their craft will always say they can improve, you know why?  Because that mindset is what got them to where they are present day.

So thank you for proving my point.

I’m not going to restate what I’ve already stated multiple times.
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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2019, 04:40:04 pm »

yeah but it's not a big game   ;)

Nope, chances are he would’ve lost one of those. Lol
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99toLife

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2019, 05:16:10 pm »

Nope, chances are he would’ve lost one of those. Lol

Explain "HE" PM didn't lose a game ever in the NFL... His  Team may have, but it was't because of Him..  be real ...
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2019, 05:41:10 pm »

Explain "HE" PM didn't lose a game ever in the NFL... His  Team may have, but it was't because of Him..  be real ...

Your prior post was about him winning big games.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2019, 08:34:05 am »

Your prior post was about him winning big games.
Could you imagine your cowboys with a good qb like Mahomes? lol

Grizzlyfan

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #139 on: January 28, 2019, 09:07:54 am »

The day you see me accusing a coach or athlete of something negative in a published report, something I have not witnessed or confirmed by speaking with the people involved, I will accept your slippery soapbox claim.

I have been told many times by others in the media to avoid posing here for this very reason. That everything I post will be treated as a published piece of journalism. I have told those reporters that I don't see any difference in posting in a Hogville thread and giving my thoughts on sports talk radio.

I have to believe that most people understand the difference between that and seeing one of my Pig Trail Nation reports.

The real issue here is apparently my use of the term Bert. As I have previously stated I don't consider that an insult and neither does Bielema.  I had about 20 nicknames growing up. Unless somebody called me something like $h*thead I didn't get offended.
People's view of you as a journalist does not start and stop when you sign on to Hogville.  If you wantit that way you should make up a handle like everybody else.  But just like when you came on here and on the radio and spread the nonsense about the construction project being over budget and whatnot.  When it comes from you there will always be people who take it as gospel.  whether you want them to or not.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2019, 04:19:04 pm »

Could you imagine your cowboys with a good qb like Mahomes? lol

Could you imagine your chiefs with multiple Super Bowls? Probably so because it’s not reality.

But yay for fantasy football titles and no look passes. Lmao

Dallas qb has the 3rd most wins in the league during his first 3 years. But he, along with your man crush, will be judged by postseason success.

MFG

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #141 on: January 29, 2019, 06:40:29 am »

Unfortunately his size and style of play will likely lead to a short career.

Mahomes is 6'3" 230 lbs. How much bigger does he need to be?
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psychhog

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2019, 07:32:31 am »

Mahomes is 6'3" 230 lbs. How much bigger does he need to be?

I think somewhere in the range of Jared Lorenzen should increase his durability.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2019, 09:17:07 am »

Could you imagine your chiefs with multiple Super Bowls? Probably so because it’s not reality.

But yay for fantasy football titles and no look passes. Lmao

Dallas qb has the 3rd most wins in the league during his first 3 years. But he, along with your man crush, will be judged by postseason success.
lol.. Americas team.... LMFAO
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EastexHawg

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2019, 09:35:00 am »

Justin Verlander is an overrated stat monster.  I'm not saying he isn't good, but Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson were better...and I'm totally not jealous that he shares a hot tub with Kate Upton.

Let me know when he and Clayton Kershaw have won as many World Series as Whitey Ford.

EastexHawg

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2019, 09:35:51 am »

Oh, and the Roman Empire is the greatest superpower ever.  Toga!  Toga!  Toga!

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2019, 10:05:53 am »

Oh, and the Roman Empire is the greatest superpower ever.  Toga!  Toga!  Toga!

Only until the Germans Bombed them..... ;)
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EastexHawg

Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #147 on: February 02, 2019, 08:27:18 pm »

Mahomes is named MVP on 82% of ballots (41 of 50).  Also named AP Offensive Player Of The Year.

Brees was second, but the vote turned out to be a landslide.

Now that the highest possible individual awards are on his resume the only thing that can be added is a Super Bowl championship.  He seems likely to eventually get his chance, but so did Marino after 1984. 

DoubleReedHawgCaller

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Re: Patrick Mahomes
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2019, 12:45:42 am »

If Andy Reid and the front office is willing to give the kid a half a$$ decent defense, there's no one in the league that can hang with them barring injuries.
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