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Author Topic: Rosenthal  (Read 1969 times)

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Hoggie17

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Rosenthal
« on: August 19, 2014, 08:14:46 am »

Mike Matheny needs to name a new closer, Rosenthal needs time to make adjustments before October. Matheny seems hard headed when comes to naming a new closer.
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McKdaddy

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 08:25:54 am »

Matheny seems hard-headed about quite a few things.
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skinnypig

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 02:17:29 pm »

Neshek needs to be closing, dude has icewater in his veins.
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mhuff

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 03:59:15 pm »

I am a Cardinal fan first and a Matheney fan second. I am 64 years old and have been a Cards fan all my life. My father was in the Air Force and stationed in Iceland and Germany when I was 10-13 years old. Bob Gibson pitched. There was no TV ,so I listened on the radio. I had a lucky coin that I rubbed each game. If I didn't rub it, we didn't win. I brought them home to many a victory. So, the Cards are it for me. Matheney is a player's coach and hangs with players too long to the detriment of the team.... i.e. Boggs. If Rosenthal is tired or not in control, why not give him a rest and pitch Neshek? Instead he thought he would show confidence in Rosenthal and help him get out of his funk. By doing so he put the game in jeopardy...... which is unfair to the team. Also, it could have resulted in tiring our complete bull pen. One thing is crystal clear to me whether we're talking Little League, h.s., college, or the pros, if you walk walk walk people, it takes the help of your team mates out of their hands. Anyone with no control has to come out.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 05:46:54 pm »

Dealing with confidence issues is a tricky job. I think that's what a lot of it is me what matheny is trying to do. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes it's a huge failure. Right now, it's not looking like so good of a call. The thing is, when you are managing a baseball team you are managing for a 162 game season. A lot of your decisions are based off getting players ready for future situations in the present. I think that's what matheny was trying to do. However, it seems rosenthal is just lost right now.
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Imminent Rueage

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 08:25:44 pm »

http://redbirdrants.com/2014/08/19/trevor-rosenthal-curse-st-louis-cardinals-closers/

Quote
Trevor Rosenthal and the Curse of the St. Louis Cardinals Closers

by Daniel Solzman

Trevor Rosenthal appears to be the latest St. Louis Cardinals pitcher to fall victim to the Cardinals closers over the past decade or so. As we watch another late-season implosion by a Cardinals closer, I’m starting to wonder if the Cardinals closers are cursed.

This year, Rosenthal has 36 saves but he’s also 1-6 on the season with a 3.61 ERA. Pat Neshek has picked up four saves while Seth Maness has earned two saves.

At Fox Sports, Rob Neyer wonders if it is time for a closer change in St. Louis. As Neyer points out, Cardinals fans are concerned because the team is fighting for their lives right now. Just look at the last three appearances for Rosenthal: six walks and four runs allowed!

“Mike Matheny knows how to handle pitching and he will handle Rosenthal appropriately,”said ESPN analyst Eric Wedge, who appears throughout the week on Baseball Tonight. “He needs to be supportive and communicative with him and nurse him through this tough stretch.”

This dates back to the 2006 season when Jason Isringhausen fell apart due to a hip problem. Isringhausen was shut down in mid-September and Adam Wainwright stepped into the closer’s role. Izzy had started off the season poorly with two losses and a blown save in his first five games of the year. He finished the season with a 4–8 record and 33 saves along with 10 blown saves. After offseason hip surgery, Izzy rebounded beautifully during the 2007 season but things began to unravel once more in 2008. Manager Tony La Russa removed Izzy as closer. He would leave the team in August due to lingering elbow tendinitis and a torn tendon.

This brings us to Ryan Franklin. Franklin took over from Izzy in 2008 and was selected for the 2009 All-Star Game before being rewarded with a two-year contract extension. Things unraveled early on for Franklin during the 2011 season. After blowing four saves in five opportunities to start the 2011 campaign, LaRussa removed Franklin as the team closer on April 19, 2011.

Nobody really took over the role for the rest of the 2011 season. True, Jason Motte would win it in the end and close out the Cardinals games in October and the 2012 season.

Here’s the 2011 season breakdown:
Fernando Salas: 24 saves
Jason Motte: 9 saves
Eduardo Sanchez: 5 saves
Mitchell Boggs: 4 saves

After Mike Matheny said he was the team’s official closer, Motte would lead the league with 42 saves during the 2012 season….but he was shut down in early 2013 before it was officially announced that he would miss the year with Tommy John Surgery.

With Motte on the DL, Boggs took over at the start of the 2013 season but it was never meant to be. The 8th inning guy in 2012, he wasn’t able to click in the role. In 14.2 innings pitched, Motte posted a 0-3 record with a 11.05 ERA in 18 appearances (10 games finished). After blowing Michael Wacha‘s debut on May 30, Boggs was sent down to Memphis and subsequently traded to the Colorado Rockies for an international signing bonus.

Edward Mujica eventually filled the role of closer. He earned 37 saves. Rosenthal earned 3 saves during the regular season and another five saves in the postseason.
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pigture perfect

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2014, 11:16:09 pm »

He made it interesting again tonight. His velocity is down, or so it seems and control is an issue as well.
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Hoggie17

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2014, 11:37:58 am »

Mike Matheny needs to name a new closer, Rosenthal needs time to make adjustments before October. Matheny seems hard headed when comes to naming a new closer.
In August I made the first post about Rosenthal, Matheny should have found another  closer then.  I guess its to late this year, one has to wonder what Matheny is thinking.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2014, 11:42:31 am »

In August I made the first post about Rosenthal, Matheny should have found another  closer then.  I guess its to late this year, one has to wonder what Matheny is thinking.

Since I'm a coach myself, I almost NEVER second guess a coach. I can't stand coach bashing. I understand that usually there is a reason behind the decision that most people don't know. However, this is one I've always second guessed. It just seems so obvious. There has to be more to it though.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2014, 12:14:49 pm »

Neshek needs to be closing, dude has icewater in his veins.

And then who is the 8th inning set-up guy?
Rosie is a heart attack waiting to happen, no doubt. But he does tend to get out of his self imposed jams.

How many saves did he have this year? Close to a Cardinal record I believe.
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dacskc

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2014, 12:17:42 pm »

I get showing loyalty and nursing a formerly reliable player through a rough stretch. However...it ceases to be a "rough stretch" when it spans most of the season. He's had multiple second chances, it's time to move on.
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2014, 02:27:29 pm »

Sorry guys, I can't see Matheny changing it up at this point. Marco Gonzales needs a bigger role though, and he could slot nicely into the eighth if Matheny was inclined to make a change of some kind.

I just don't get why the Cardinals are playing with a 24 man roster by not using Wacha, and it's fixing to be a 23 man roster when they do the same thing with Molina's injury.
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Hoggie17

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2014, 03:07:21 pm »

Sorry guys, I can't see Matheny changing it up at this point. Marco Gonzales needs a bigger role though, and he could slot nicely into the eighth if Matheny was inclined to make a change of some kind.

I just don't get why the Cardinals are playing with a 24 man roster by not using Wacha, and it's fixing to be a 23 man roster when they do the same thing with Molina's injury.
Like I posted its probably too late this year should have been done in August.
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sooiepig_12

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2014, 04:04:20 pm »

At this point with off days and the efficiency of Neshek I think you try to stretch him out for two innings if need be.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2014, 05:46:47 pm »

At this point with off days and the efficiency of Neshek I think you try to stretch him out for two innings if need be.

You serious, Clark?
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pigture perfect

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 01:20:12 am »

I'm not so sure Maness wouldn't be a good option to close. He's always around the plate and seems to be a whiz at getting the double play ball when needed. Rosie needs a rest. He's 24 and his arm seems to be sore. He has years left, if he's given time to recoup.
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TomasPistola

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2014, 01:25:26 am »

I think  Rosie's issues are with his lower body. He seems to get out of control and lose his footing when he plants. Him getting up on the mound makes me sweat like when Tejada was our kicker.
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Hoggie17

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 12:56:41 pm »

I am not the only one that thinks the Cards need a new closer.

 http://www.examiner.com/article/where-has-it-gone-wrong-for-trevor-rosenthal
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Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2014, 01:24:36 pm »

My buddy and I talked about this in between classes today. He brought up something I REALLY found interesting.

What if we placed Wacha into the closers role ala Wainwright circa 2006? The only difference being Wacha has actually been in HIGH leverage situations already and excelled in them. He's (by all accounts) healthy, has a large repertoire, especially for needing only 3 outs instead of 27, and is someone the Giants have not seen before (or very little). What do y'all think?
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2014, 01:27:50 pm »

I am not the only one that thinks the Cards need a new closer.

 http://www.examiner.com/article/where-has-it-gone-wrong-for-trevor-rosenthal

You said it was too late to change now, are you proposing some kind of offseason move after the Cardinals get beat in yet another NLCS?
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2014, 01:38:51 pm »

My buddy and I talked about this in between classes today. He brought up something I REALLY found interesting.

What if we placed Wacha into the closers role ala Wainwright circa 2006? The only difference being Wacha has actually been in HIGH leverage situations already and excelled in them. He's (by all accounts) healthy, has a large repertoire, especially for needing only 3 outs instead of 27, and is someone the Giants have not seen before (or very little). What do y'all think?

Wacha is this year's Shelby Miller. He's just on the roster to miff us as to why they aren't using him.  :) I saw something where Matheny said Wacha was only going to be used if the Cardinals need a long reliever to go in extra innings.

It's so frustrating that the Cardinals will not use a roster that is at least complete. Wacha is pretty much off limits, I'm predicting that Molina doesn't play another inning this postseason. They're playing with a 23 man roster, I don't understand the logic in it. I know, what the hope is on Molina, but nearly none of this organizations "hopes" in regard to injury have come to fruition.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2014, 02:16:02 pm »

I am not the only one that thinks the Cards need a new closer.

 http://www.examiner.com/article/where-has-it-gone-wrong-for-trevor-rosenthal

I don't necessarily disagree that we need a new closer.  I just don't see a good way to do it right now.

I know a lot of people have wanted him replaced for months.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2014, 02:21:29 pm »

Wacha is this year's Shelby Miller. He's just on the roster to miff us as to why they aren't using him.  :) I saw something where Matheny said Wacha was only going to be used if the Cardinals need a long reliever to go in extra innings.

It's so frustrating that the Cardinals will not use a roster that is at least complete. Wacha is pretty much off limits, I'm predicting that Molina doesn't play another inning this postseason. They're playing with a 23 man roster, I don't understand the logic in it. I know, what the hope is on Molina, but nearly none of this organizations "hopes" in regard to injury have come to fruition.

Wacha makes sense as an extra innings guy though, don't you think (even at 70%)?  That could be quite a luxury.

As far as Yadi, I can see both sides of it.  Who are you suggesting we replace him with? Freeman?
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2014, 02:46:02 pm »

Wacha makes sense as an extra innings guy though, don't you think (even at 70%)?  That could be quite a luxury.

As far as Yadi, I can see both sides of it.  Who are you suggesting we replace him with? Freeman?

Nearly anybody that can actually play is my suggestion, it's the postseason; you don't waste a roster spot on a luxury. It's all about need. Wacha won't throw a pitch and Molina is done despite what you hear the team sunshine pumping, I'd very nearly bet the farm on it. I've watched this team play this smiley face game with injuries and it never works like they "project".

Molina hasn't taken a single swing and we're hearing from him that he may start today?  Really? Was everybody born yesterday?

Strained obliques can take months to heal, Brad Penny strained his and was out for more than half a season. It's a tough injury because until you unleash %100 on it you don't know what will happen with.

Freeman would be fine, Scruggs as a PH/DH option (not that the latter matters), I don't think he's eligible though, I'm not sure that matters in the event of an injury.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2014, 03:07:33 pm »

My buddy and I talked about this in between classes today. He brought up something I REALLY found interesting.

What if we placed Wacha into the closers role ala Wainwright circa 2006? The only difference being Wacha has actually been in HIGH leverage situations already and excelled in them. He's (by all accounts) healthy, has a large repertoire, especially for needing only 3 outs instead of 27, and is someone the Giants have not seen before (or very little). What do y'all think?

You never know how a guy is going to do in the closer role though after not having done it before. It's a whole different mindset. I know it's hard to believe, but it can actually be worse than Rosenthal haha.

It's very nice to have Wacha in the pen though for Long relief situations. If we were to have a pitcher get knocked around early, it would be like having another starter ready to go, possibly until the end of the game which would allow you to avoid the bullpen all together or at least save Neschek for the 9th.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2014, 05:55:30 pm »

Well . . . Those calling for Maness. Damn straight. Set up perfect today.
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Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2014, 06:21:30 pm »

Well... Choate isn't the answer if any of you were wondering
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McKdaddy

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2014, 06:39:11 pm »

Well... Choate isn't the answer if any of you were wondering

Smh, so true.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2014, 09:14:24 pm »

Well... Choate isn't the answer if any of you were wondering

That was about the roughest inning if baseball I've ever seen.

So many WTH's.
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dacskc

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2014, 10:20:02 pm »

Soooooo.... Matheny left Freeman off the roster in favor of Choate? WHY? Has he not been watching the same games that we have over the past few weeks? Choate has been nothing short of dismal. I don't get it at all. Why include a lefty specialist who sucks at getting out lefties, over a guy who could be stretched out a couple of innings and whose ERA is about half of Choate's? Makes sense.

If Matheny is trying the reverse jinx, he's doing it wrong.  >:(
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2014, 10:43:38 pm »

Not trying to beat my drum too loudly, but if Wacha wasn't taking a roster spot for no reason, Freeman would probably be on the roster.   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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dacskc

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2014, 12:08:21 am »

I don't understand it. Let's just fill up all the spots with people who either aren't gonna play or that we WISH weren't gonna play.
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pigture perfect

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2014, 12:10:08 am »

We Choatcked!
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dacskc

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2014, 12:14:53 am »

Ehhhhh. We are gonna lose this series anyway. At least I do not have a profound dislike of the Giants like I do for the Dodgers. (now that would've been hard to swallow.)
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2014, 12:23:59 am »

Ehhhhh. We are gonna lose this series anyway. At least I do not have a profound dislike of the Giants like I do for the Dodgers. (now that would've been hard to swallow.)

Agreed. I'd rather lose to the Giants than the Dodgers any day if the week.

No Yadi.

No closer.

Key errors.

Waino at about 50%.

Cards are done -- congrats to the Giants and good luck against the red hot Royals. The Cardinals are just lucky to have been able to share the same field as the Giants.
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pigture perfect

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2014, 12:35:47 am »

I am opposite. I hate the Giants. I have since Barry Bonds joined the team. I liked the way this team rallied back. I'm not done with them yet.
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Jackrabbit Hog

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2014, 05:51:32 am »

I've always been in that minority that believes the idea of a "closer" can at times do more harm than good to a team.  For every Mariano Rivera, there are 5 Rosenthals, but managers think they have to designate someone as their closer and they mindlessly bring them in whenever there's a 9th inning lead of less than 3 runs.  I understand pitch counts and all, but if you've got a pitcher who is throwing BBs and setting down the other side in order in the 7th and 8th, why take him out for your wilder-than-Axl-Rose closer?  It just makes no sense to me, and it seems I've watched more games this year that a closer blew a lead (usually due to walks) than saved one.
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popcornhog

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2014, 06:58:31 am »

I am opposite. I hate the Giants. I have since Barry Bonds joined the team. I liked the way this team rallied back. I'm not done with them yet.

Stupid way of looking at things. Zero percent chance of winning this series. Might as well become a Giants fan.
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Hoggie17

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2014, 07:12:26 am »

You said it was too late to change now, are you proposing some kind of offseason move after the Cardinals get beat in yet another NLCS?
Yes, I think so.
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2014, 10:26:15 am »

Yes, I think so.

I'd be surprised if that happens. Rosenthal almost set a team record for saves, teams don't replace pitchers that do that. The only thing that needs to change is Matheny needs to stop grinding him into the ground by running him out there day after day after day. Of course, some of that is on the offense for not scoring enough runs to allow Rosenthal days off.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2014, 12:18:27 pm »

I'd be surprised if that happens. Rosenthal almost set a team record for saves, teams don't replace pitchers that do that. The only thing that needs to change is Matheny needs to stop grinding him into the ground by running him out there day after day after day. Of course, some of that is on the offense for not scoring enough runs to allow Rosenthal days off.

Just think of how many games we would have won if he didn't blow any saves. The division race would have been over a long time ago haha.
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Hoggie17

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2014, 12:31:08 pm »

Just think of how many games we would have won if he didn't blow any saves. The division race would have been over a long time ago haha.

Rosenthal was the kind of closer last year that I like. I don't like to be on pins and needles at the end of tight games. 
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Imminent Rueage

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2014, 12:36:55 pm »

I hate the Giants going back to the dustups we had with them going back to '86-'87.

Has everyone forgotten Jeff Leonard and his "one flap down" routine?

I guess I'll  be a Giants fan in the World Series, though. There's not too many teams I'd root for the Royals to beat.
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2014, 12:39:58 pm »

Just think of how many games we would have won if he didn't blow any saves. The division race would have been over a long time ago haha.

He blew 6 saves. The number of that ended in losses, I know not. It is easy to point to what his problem is though, the walks rate he's put up this year: 5.37/9 innings, last year: 2.39/9 innings.

My concern is the inability of the coaching staff to "fix" whatever is causing his wildness. That's why I'm attributing it to fatigue.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2014, 01:53:44 pm »

He blew 6 saves. The number of that ended in losses, I know not. It is easy to point to what his problem is though, the walks rate he's put up this year: 5.37/9 innings, last year: 2.39/9 innings.

My concern is the inability of the coaching staff to "fix" whatever is causing his wildness. That's why I'm attributing it to fatigue.

I think it's a mechanical issue. His lower body looks out of control sometimes. That and he's trying too hard to hit tight spots. You are throwing the ball 100 mph. That's your defense, not location.
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jrulz83

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Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2014, 07:41:08 pm »

I think it's a mechanical issue. His lower body looks out of control sometimes. That and he's trying too hard to hit tight spots. You are throwing the ball 100 mph. That's your defense, not location.

I don't care how hard you throw it, if you can't locate somebody will catch the one that drifts over the plate.
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clutch

Re: Rosenthal
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2014, 10:12:37 pm »

I don't care how hard you throw it, if you can't locate somebody will catch the one that drifts over the plate.

I'm not saying throw it down the pipe. I'm saying don't try to throw the unhittable pitch, that's not your strong point. Your strong point is power. If it's coming 100 mph, anything other than right down the middle is really hard to catch up to. There is literally no time to second guess ball or strike. You have to be swinging as soon as your first choice is made.
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