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All-time NBA West vs. East who would you like to see?

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dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

Use whatever criteria you want, sure would be fun if this could magically happen, but also fun to think about.  I put a lot of emphasis on competitiveness, chemistry, and roles, and not as much on just individual talent.

East:

Sir Sid
Jordan
Bird
Barkley
Chamberlain(Sixers)

6th man:  Dr. J

West:

Magic
Clyde Drexler
Durant
Karl Malone
Olajuwon

6th man: Shaq

ErieHog:

Are you leaving folded franchises in the conferences they were in at the time of their failures?

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 18, 2014, 09:35:08 pm ---Are you leaving folded franchises in the conferences they were in at the time of their failures?

--- End quote ---

Yeah, that got kind of complicated so it prob. affected my choices.  Which one are you talking about?

For ex., I almost put Oscar Robertson but wasn't sure which conference.  Didn't do a lot of research.

Mainly was thinking about an incredibly competitive and entertaining All-Star game.

Dr. Starcs:

I was with you till Karl Malone over Tim Duncan.


dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: Dr. Starcs on April 18, 2014, 09:57:37 pm ---I was with you till Karl Malone over Tim Duncan.


--- End quote ---

Ha, yeah.  Well, biases do get in the way.

However, Duncan(whom I despise) and Nowitzki(I'm a Mav's fan) both would be awful to watch in an All-Star game because they are so "old school". 

But I admit, he probably deserves to be on there.  But not on MY team!!

ErieHog:

Since the conference affiliations of franchises change so radically over time, I decided on a single season snapshot for each player on the roster, and using the conference affiliations they had in that given season.

East:

PF: Bill Russel '61-'62
SF: Larry Bird  '85-'86
SG: Oscar Robertson  '60-'61
PG: Isiah Thomas '84-'85
C: Wilt  '66-'67

West:
PG: Magic Johnson 87-88'
SG: The Logo '65-'66
SF: Kevin Durant '13-'14
PF: Tim Duncan '02-'03
C: Dream '93-'94

popcornhog:

East:

Oscar Robertson
Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Bill Russell

John Havlececk
Scottie Pippen
Isiah Thomas
Patrick Ewing
D Wade
Dominique Wilkens
Dr. J

West (lots of Lakers)

Magic Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Karl Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabaar

Hakeem Olojuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Pete Maravich
Tim Duncan
Jerry West
John Stockton
Elgin Baylor


roundball:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 18, 2014, 10:26:44 pm ---Since the conference affiliations of franchises change so radically over time, I decided on a single season snapshot for each player on the roster, and using the conference affiliations they had in that given season.

East:

PF: Bill Russel '61-'62
SF: Larry Bird  '85-'86
SG: Oscar Robertson  '60-'61
PG: Isiah Thomas '84-'85
C: Wilt  '66-'67

West:
PG: Magic Johnson 87-88'
SG: The Logo '65-'66
SF: Kevin Durant '13-'14
PF: Tim Duncan '02-'03
C: Dream '93-'94

--- End quote ---


Jordan???

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 18, 2014, 10:26:44 pm ---Since the conference affiliations of franchises change so radically over time, I decided on a single season snapshot for each player on the roster, and using the conference affiliations they had in that given season.

East:

PF: Bill Russel '61-'62
SF: Larry Bird  '85-'86
SG: Oscar Robertson  '60-'61
PG: Isiah Thomas '84-'85
C: Wilt  '66-'67

West:
PG: Magic Johnson 87-88'
SG: The Logo '65-'66
SF: Kevin Durant '13-'14
PF: Tim Duncan '02-'03
C: Dream '93-'94

--- End quote ---

I'm confused. Where is MJ?

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 18, 2014, 11:17:35 pm ---I'm confused. Where is MJ?

--- End quote ---

The best player does not necessarily make for the best team.   This is a longstanding discussion when we talk about things like the 'Best 5' or 'Best Olympic Team'.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 12:10:34 am ---The best player does not necessarily make for the best team.   This is a longstanding discussion when we talk about things like the 'Best 5' or 'Best Olympic Team'.

--- End quote ---

Blasphemy!  The FIRST time in the history of written history(which is technically the beginning of any history) that our Resident NBA Expert made a mistake!  Oh the humanity!!

Seriously, in Eerie's Defense, the premise was the best team, not best players and he took it a step further and choose them in their particular best year, which allows for his logic even more. 

I promise he gave this more intelligent thought than most of us who include Jordan.

But it shows that Eerie may in fact be human!

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

For Eerie:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 12:10:34 am ---The best player does not necessarily make for the best team.   This is a longstanding discussion when we talk about things like the 'Best 5' or 'Best Olympic Team'.

--- End quote ---

Gurl, you be trollin!

+1

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 19, 2014, 06:27:53 am ---Blasphemy!  The FIRST time in the history of written history(which is technically the beginning of any history) that our Resident NBA Expert made a mistake!  Oh the humanity!!

Seriously, in Eerie's Defense, the premise was the best team, not best players and he took it a step further and choose them in their particular best year, which allows for his logic even more. 

I promise he gave this more intelligent thought than most of us who include Jordan.

But it shows that Eerie may in fact be human!

--- End quote ---

I think he's going way out of his way to prove his point about best player not having to be on the best team. I get his point but, come on!

If we're talking best two-on-two team I could buy it -- maybe go with Oscar and LeBron for example (not the two best players, but probably an unstoppable 2-on-2 force.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 19, 2014, 08:05:22 am ---I think he's going way out of his way to prove his point about best player not having to be on the best team. I get his point but, come on!

If we're talking best two-on-two team I could buy it -- maybe go with Oscar and LeBron for example (not the two best players, but probably an unstoppable 2-on-2 force.

--- End quote ---

No, I'm not trolling, and  I'm not going out of the way to make a point;  I'd argue that Jordan probably possesses 4 of the 20 best seasons in the history of the NBA-- but I left them off because they weren't the pinnacle of achievement at SG.      I also omitted 70-71 Kareem and '00 Shaq-- not because they weren't all time quality seasons, but because there was not enough differential to justify putting them in ahead of other seasons by more complimentary players. 

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 08:57:14 am ---No, I'm not trolling, and  I'm not going out of the way to make a point;  I'd argue that Jordan probably possesses 4 of the 20 best seasons in the history of the NBA-- but I left them off because they weren't the pinnacle of achievement at SG.      I also omitted 70-71 Kareem and '00 Shaq-- not because they weren't all time quality seasons, but because there was not enough differential to justify putting them in ahead of other seasons by more complimentary players.

--- End quote ---

Talking about making the best team here -- keep Oscar at the point. Jordan at the 2.

88-89 Jordan would unquestionably make the team better than Isiah. We're talking 33 points, 8 assists, and 8 boards per game. Granted, I might take 97-98 Jordan for experience and leadership, but either way.

This is not a knock on Isiah -- 14 assists per game is unbelievable, but even for a PG, assists aren't the only thing that matter.




ErieHog:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 19, 2014, 09:23:34 am ---Talking about making the best team here -- keep Oscar at the point. Jordan at the 2.

88-89 Jordan would unquestionably make the team better than Isiah. We're talking 33 points, 8 assists, and 8 boards per game. Granted, I might take 97-98 Jordan for experience and leadership, but either way.

This is not a knock on Isiah -- 14 assists per game is unbelievable, but even for a PG, assists aren't the only thing that matter.




--- End quote ---

The best teams do not play people out of position;  both Jordan and Oscar were shooting guards, used as shooting guards.      The only reason I put Russell at the 4, is because the 61-62 season, he was largely used in a true 4 role, because of Heinsohn's immobility  issues that year, which were unusual for those Celtics teams.






popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 10:30:39 am ---The best teams do not play people out of position;  both Jordan and Oscar were shooting guards, used as shooting guards.      The only reason I put Russell at the 4, is because the 61-62 season, he was largely used in a true 4 role, because of Heinsohn's immobility  issues that year, which were unusual for those Celtics teams.

--- End quote ---

Oscar played both positions well.

Russell could play the 4 easily without being out of position in an all time context easily, if not better than the 5.

But, yes, I agree, I'm not typically going to take folks out of position. LeBron, Bird, and Magic are examples of guys who easily could and did play out of position as well simply because they were that versatile.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

I thought about moving Magic, just because Stockton was such a great floor leader....but then again, so was Magic, and some.

Every time I saw Magic play, he was willing to do whatever it took to win.  He played Center, then took over as PG and if he need to run the fast break he would, if he needed to set up a half court offense and get it to Worthy or Kareem he would, if he needed to be a 3-pt. shooter he would do that OR if they needed a running hook shot inside and the end of the game, he did that.

And I was a 76ers' fan, I hated the Lakers.

I also believe Jordan was the greatest player to play the game, but even he didn't stop the Lakers, injuries did.  I don't think they beat the Lakers until Magic pulled his hamstring.



ErieHog:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 19, 2014, 06:13:48 pm ---I thought about moving Magic, just because Stockton was such a great floor leader....but then again, so was Magic, and some.

Every time I saw Magic play, he was willing to do whatever it took to win.  He played Center, then took over as PG and if he need to run the fast break he would, if he needed to set up a half court offense and get it to Worthy or Kareem he would, if he needed to be a 3-pt. shooter he would do that OR if they needed a running hook shot inside and the end of the game, he did that.

And I was a 76ers' fan, I hated the Lakers.

I also believe Jordan was the greatest player to play the game, but even he didn't stop the Lakers, injuries did.  I don't think they beat the Lakers until Magic pulled his hamstring.



--- End quote ---

Where would you move Magic, though?  You can't reasonably play such a bad shooter at the 2, and its hard to justify him at the 3.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 06:42:09 pm ---Where would you move Magic, though?  You can't reasonably play such a bad shooter at the 2, and its hard to justify him at the 3.

--- End quote ---

I would put more emphasis on the fact that there are better shooters, not that he was a bad shooter.  His shooting improved and again, when they needed it he hit it.

But that exactly would be the dilemma.  Much better options.  So that's why I have him at PG.



yraciv:

East:

PG: Oscar Robertson  61-62
SG: Michael Jordan 88-89
SF: Lebron James 12-13
PF: Barkley 87-88
C: Wilt  '66-'67

West:
PG: Chris Paul 08-09
SG: Kobe Bryant 02-03
SF: Kevin Durant '13-'14
PF: Tim Duncan '02-'03
C: Dream '92-93

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

That would be so awesome to see some of those players play together.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 19, 2014, 07:10:07 pm ---I would put more emphasis on the fact that there are better shooters, not that he was a bad shooter.  His shooting improved and again, when they needed it he hit it.

But that exactly would be the dilemma.  Much better options.  So that's why I have him at PG.



--- End quote ---

He was a bad shooter.   Not an average shooter, not an above average shooter-- he was flat out a bad perimeter shooter.     A guy who struggled at his absolute peak to shoot *20%* from 3 point range.  He went 0-for-a-SEASON from 3, as a starting NBA guard.

It is the great blot on Magic's game, that no one likes to talk about.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 08:17:52 pm ---He was a bad shooter.   Not an average shooter, not an above average shooter-- he was flat out a bad perimeter shooter.     A guy who struggled at his absolute peak to shoot *20%* from 3 point range.  He went 0-for-a-SEASON from 3, as a starting NBA guard.

It is the great blot on Magic's game, that no one likes to talk about.

--- End quote ---

Ok, I stand corrected.  I remember that being the biggest criticism of Magic.  I also remember him hitting shots when they needed them.  But that could be some of my "good ol' days" syndrome.

It sure was an ugly.  Not as ugly as Jamaal Wilkes, but it was just a set shot.



CDBHawg:

Magic never shot  3's until late in his career. I mean as in not even 1 a game until very late. His 3pt% his final three years was okay. If he had darn them that much his whole career, no doubt his percentage would be higher.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: roundball on April 18, 2014, 11:15:42 pm ---
Jordan???

--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: CDBHawg on April 19, 2014, 11:20:43 pm ---Magic never shot  3's until late in his career. I mean as in not even 1 a game until very late. His 3pt% his final three years was okay. If he had darn them that much his whole career, no doubt his percentage would be higher.

--- End quote ---

So who you guys got in a dream teams' All-Star game?

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: CDBHawg on April 19, 2014, 11:20:43 pm ---Magic never shot  3's until late in his career. I mean as in not even 1 a game until very late. His 3pt% his final three years was okay. If he had darn them that much his whole career, no doubt his percentage would be higher.

--- End quote ---

He didn't shoot 3s, because he couldn't convert them; as he lost his ability to penetrate, and became more reliant on being a bigger guard who could work the post,  he had to refine his shooting to maintain the variety in his offensive game-- which never peaked at much more than passable, and which was in many ways the precursor  spot up role that many teams now use a 4th guard.    There is a reason why teams gave him any uncontested jump shot outside of 17 feet he wanted-- it wasn't because they were concerned with Magic being even adequate from the perimeter.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

Erie, he did make a comeback and set the record for most 3 pointers in an All-Star game...and that last one was pretty amazing.

But, it was an All-Star game..not much D played.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 19, 2014, 11:54:19 pm ---Erie, he did make a comeback and set the record for most 3 pointers in an All-Star game...and that last one was pretty amazing.

But, it was an All-Star game..not much D played.

--- End quote ---

No defense and the benefit of no one wanting to be within 15 feet of him-- fair or unfairly-- helps.

The game results don't lie.   The next time ESPN Classic fires up the way back machine to 80s playoff series, watch how teams defended Magic.     They gave him any shot he wanted from outside of 16-17 feet.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 11:55:52 pm ---No defense and the benefit of no one wanting to be within 15 feet of him-- fair or unfairly-- helps.

The game results don't lie.   The next time ESPN Classic fires up the way back machine to 80s playoff series, watch how teams defended Magic.     They gave him any shot he wanted from outside of 16-17 feet.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I remember that.  They would immediately double-team Worthy or Kareem. 

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 06:42:09 pm ---Where would you move Magic, though?  You can't reasonably play such a bad shooter at the 2, and its hard to justify him at the 3.

--- End quote ---

Agree 100%. If I'm going to play him at a spot other than PG on this all-time team, it would be power forward IF I decided to go with a super athletic, spread-em-out line up.



Big Nasty 34:

Wasn't there one season in the 80s where the Lakers only hit like 12 3 pointers all year?  Total different game than now!

roundball:

East

PG: LeBron
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Russell

West

PG: Magic
SG: Bryant
SF: Dirk
PF: Duncan
C: Shaq

Tooth:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 06:42:09 pm ---Where would you move Magic, though?  You can't reasonably play such a bad shooter at the 2, and its hard to justify him at the 3.

--- End quote ---

Credibility check: Magic Johnson was a career 52.0 percent shooter. That's a bad shooter?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Jordan was a career 49.7 pct shooter. So he must be a bad shooter.
Bird, 49.6. Bad shooter.
LeBron, 49.7. Bad.
Kobe, 45.4. AWFUL!

See, what really bugs me are low-information types who think what they believe equals truth. It's called Google... get to know it.


Tooth:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 19, 2014, 11:55:52 pm ---The game results don't lie.
--- End quote ---

Nope they don't. But people do.

Fatty McGee:


--- Quote from: roundball on April 20, 2014, 04:31:07 pm ---East

PG: LeBron
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Barkley
C: Russell

West

PG: Magic
SG: Bryant
SF: Dirk
PF: Duncan
C: Shaq

--- End quote ---

You better put Chamberlain on the East.  Shaq will overpower 215 lb. Russell.  He's got 50 pounds on Wilt!  100 plus is too many for Russell to give up, which is not a criticism of him, just a fact.  Imagine Gary Payton guarding LeBron in the paint, then add 50 more pounds!

thebignasty:


--- Quote from: Tooth on April 20, 2014, 10:03:06 pm ---Credibility check: Magic Johnson was a career 52.0 percent shooter. That's a bad shooter?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Jordan was a career 49.7 pct shooter. So he must be a bad shooter.
Bird, 49.6. Bad shooter.
LeBron, 49.7. Bad.
Kobe, 45.4. AWFUL!

See, what really bugs me are low-information types who think what they believe equals truth. It's called Google... get to know it.

--- End quote ---
Field goal percentage isn't a measure of shooting ability. Your attitude is humorous given the fact that you are the one who is being misleading.

thebignasty:

The greatest shooters of all time:




[attachment deleted by admin]

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: Fatty McGee on April 20, 2014, 10:15:16 pm ---You better put Chamberlain on the East.  Shaq will overpower 215 lb. Russell.  He's got 50 pounds on Wilt!  100 plus is too many for Russell to give up, which is not a criticism of him, just a fact.  Imagine Gary Payton guarding LeBron in the paint, then add 50 more pounds!

--- End quote ---

That's a good point.  Russell's not blocking a Shaq dunk(and keeping it in play).  But you bring in Wilt and move Russell to PF, and he would shut Duncan down.

But roundball I like your idea of Lebron at PG with Jordan at the 2.  That's a pretty awesome backcourt. 

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: Tooth on April 20, 2014, 10:03:06 pm ---Credibility check: Magic Johnson was a career 52.0 percent shooter. That's a bad shooter?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Jordan was a career 49.7 pct shooter. So he must be a bad shooter.
Bird, 49.6. Bad shooter.
LeBron, 49.7. Bad.
Kobe, 45.4. AWFUL!

See, what really bugs me are low-information types who think what they believe equals truth. It's called Google... get to know it.


--- End quote ---

You'd do well to reference your own site choices.  Low information types like you would do well to actually, you know-- read them. 

What are these slashes?   .226/.176/.207/.000/.207/.189/.223/.205/.196/.314/.384/.320

Those are Magic's season by season 3 point shooting numbers as a PG;  during his return as a PF, he became a .379 3 point shooter, to *finally* push his career number over the 30% mark.  Be still, our beating hearts.   

Magic *thrived* by being the best converting guard at the rim in the league, by a solid margin, for the better part of a decade-- for a while, Zeke approached him (when playing healthy and at peak), but no one else was able to get to the rim and convert like Magic-- and it drove his overall shooting numbers back up, despite a *dreadful* lack of perimeter performance.   Inside of 10 feet, it can be argued that Magic was the best scorer of all time.   

You cite 4 more players, all of whom took much higher shot rates from both 3 point range and the perimeter, who all clearly outshot Johnson away from the hoop -- Jordan, unlike Johnson, saw a real improvement in his 3 point range over time, even with a precipitous drop off in his numbers again at the tail end of his career in Washington, still didn't fall to Johnson-like career performances from 3 point range.


--- Quote from: Tooth on April 20, 2014, 10:10:32 pm ---Nope they don't. But people do.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, but we forgive you.

hvsupastar:

Magic
Kobe
Durant
Duncan
Shaq

Kareem
Worthy
Hakeem
Barkley
Nash
West

VS

Isaiah
MJ
Lebron
Bird
Russell

Wilt
MCHALE
Pippen
Rodman
Kidd
Pierce
Wade
Iverson


ErieHog:


--- Quote from: hvsupastar on April 20, 2014, 11:00:09 pm ---Magic
Kobe
Durant
Duncan
Shaq

Kareem
Worthy
Hakeem
Barkley
Nash
West

VS

Isaiah
MJ
Lebron
Bird
Russell

Wilt
MCHALE
Pippen
Rodman
Kidd
Pierce
Wade
Iverson


--- End quote ---


Would be fascinating to watch--  but I do have a question-- do you like Laker Kareem better than Bucks Kareem?   I'm very torn on it--- I lean slightly to Eastern Conference Kareem/Alcindor.

bruisemeister:

East
Guard Jordan
Guard James
Center Chamberlain(as a sixer)
Foward Bird
Foward Dr J.
6th man Havlicek

West
Guard Robertson
Guard Kobe
Center Kareem
Foward K. Malone
Foward Baylor
6th man Rick Barry

Tooth:

LOL, don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion. Those low 3-pt totals are based on a time when people didn't shoot many threes. Whatever, I know you're wrong and so do you.

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: Tooth on April 20, 2014, 10:03:06 pm ---Credibility check: Magic Johnson was a career 52.0 percent shooter. That's a bad shooter?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Jordan was a career 49.7 pct shooter. So he must be a bad shooter.
Bird, 49.6. Bad shooter.
LeBron, 49.7. Bad.
Kobe, 45.4. AWFUL!

See, what really bugs me are low-information types who think what they believe equals truth. It's called Google... get to know it.

--- End quote ---

Erie was saying that Magic wasn't a good perimeter shooter. He had a good mid range jumper and converted in the paint at a very high percentage.

Come on, man!

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: thebignasty on April 20, 2014, 10:32:43 pm ---The greatest shooters of all time:

--- End quote ---

Not trying to split hairs, I think that this is an important distinction.

Those are not the "best shooters," but those who made the highest percentage of their field goal attempts.

A lot of those guys were very talented powerful big men that scored off of offensive rebounds and post ups.

All time great scorers/players to be sure, but Shaq, for example -- not a great shooter.

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on April 20, 2014, 11:03:27 pm ---
Would be fascinating to watch--  but I do have a question-- do you like Laker Kareem better than Bucks Kareem?   I'm very torn on it--- I lean slightly to Eastern Conference Kareem/Alcindor.

--- End quote ---

If you're going with a player from a certain year, I'd go Bucks.

Most in this thread are just putting the players in though -- probably based in the team that the player spend the most years with overall.

thebignasty:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 21, 2014, 08:01:10 am ---Not trying to split hairs, I think that this is an important distinction.

Those are not the "best shooters," but those who made the highest percentage of their field goal attempts.

A lot of those guys were very talented powerful big men that scored off of offensive rebounds and post ups.

All time great scorers/players to be sure, but Shaq, for example -- not a great shooter.

--- End quote ---

The point I was trying to make made perfectly.  I figured dudes would see Shaq and get it, but it was probably worth spelling out.

Fatty McGee:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 20, 2014, 10:35:59 pm ---That's a good point.  Russell's not blocking a Shaq dunk(and keeping it in play).  But you bring in Wilt and move Russell to PF, and he would shut Duncan down.

But roundball I like your idea of Lebron at PG with Jordan at the 2.  That's a pretty awesome backcourt. 

--- End quote ---

I don't know about shutting him down, but Duncan v. Russell would be an amazing matchup. 

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