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Still think Larry Bird was overrated?

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dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

Something a lot of people don't know that didn't see him play, is that he may have been the greatest trash-talker.  EVER.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NIKK_OFvFY

JIHawg:

Best hand eye coordination in human history.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: JIHawg on April 14, 2014, 10:40:01 pm ---Best hand eye coordination in human history.

--- End quote ---

I agree, with Babe Ruth in close second.

OS2 (SW) Razor Back:

Larry Legend is legendary.

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 14, 2014, 10:04:10 pm ---Something a lot of people don't know that didn't see him play, is that he may have been the greatest trash-talker.  EVER.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NIKK_OFvFY
--- End quote ---

Who said Bird was overrated?!?!

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 14, 2014, 11:01:48 pm ---Who said Bird was overrated?!?!

--- End quote ---

No one in particular, but just kind of the "vibe" I get from the LeBron/Kobe generation. 

And I think MJ is the greatest player overall ever, and was a good trash-talker himself.  But Larry had a way of being humble but quietly telling you he was going to beat you, how he was going to beat you, and then backing it up.

trashcan maN:

Anyone who has seen Bird play knows that he is the same caliber as MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Magic, Kareem etc...He's basketball royalty.

MatCauthon:

lol no one says Bird was overrated. But he was on the one the most stacked teams in the history of the game

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: MatCauthon on April 15, 2014, 07:46:41 am ---lol no one says Bird was overrated. But he was on the one the most stacked teams in the history of the game

--- End quote ---
Dennis Johnson, Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Robert Parish. Throw in an aging Bill Walton coming off the bench...  :O

What about : Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Byron Scott, James Worthy, and ya boy Kurt Rambis.

urkillnmesmalls:

Thing is...if you could transport Bird in his prime onto the court for any team tomorrow, he'd still be unstoppable.  You could put your absolute best defender on him, and they still couldn't keep him from getting his shot off.  That signature slight fade away was just a thing of beauty that hasn't been duplicated since, and may never be.  The purest shooter ever IMO. 

With the game on the line, at the three point line, is there anyone you would rather have shoot the ball than Bird? 

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: urkillnmesmalls on April 15, 2014, 08:33:29 am ---Thing is...if you could transport Bird in his prime onto the court for any team tomorrow, he'd still be unstoppable.  You could put your absolute best defender on him, and they still couldn't keep him from getting his shot off.  That signature slight fade away was just a thing of beauty that hasn't been duplicated since, and may never be.  The purest shooter ever IMO. 

With the game on the line, at the three point line, is there anyone you would rather have shoot the ball than Bird?

--- End quote ---

Bird is a top 5 all time player, the guys in about to mention are not. But if we're strictly talking 3 pointers to win the game, I'd prefer Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Steve Kerr, Mark Price, Steph Curry.

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 15, 2014, 08:40:38 am ---Bird is a top 5 all time player, the guys in about to mention are not. But if we're strictly talking 3 pointers to win the game, I'd prefer Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Steve Kerr, Mark Price, Steph Curry.

--- End quote ---
Gotta throw Robert Horry in there

popcornhog:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 15, 2014, 08:41:46 am ---Gotta throw Robert Horry in there

--- End quote ---

And D Fish in that manner.

urkillnmesmalls:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 15, 2014, 08:40:38 am ---Bird is a top 5 all time player, the guys in about to mention are not. But if we're strictly talking 3 pointers to win the game, I'd prefer Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Steve Kerr, Mark Price, Steph Curry.

--- End quote ---

All great three point shooters, and I agre with kJon that Horry was uncanny in that role as well.  I'd still want Bird to shoot it, because even if a defender came out on him...he would still get it off.  Maybe I should have qualified that better.  I'm not talking uncontested...I'm just saying getting it at the three point line.  Uncontested...probably still take Bird.   ;)

lwillin:

IMO Larry Bird is one of the best basketball players ever.

urkillnmesmalls:


--- Quote from: lwillin on April 15, 2014, 09:29:11 am ---IMO Larry Bird is one of the best basketball players ever.

--- End quote ---

Guile.  That's how he did it.  If MJ is a 10 in athleticism, then Bird's at best...a 6.  Subtle fakes, positioning, and will.  I'm not sure there's a better example of an over achiever in any sport. 

jesterzzn:


--- Quote from: urkillnmesmalls on April 15, 2014, 09:33:15 am ---If MJ is a 10 in athleticism, then Bird's at best...a 6.
--- End quote ---

How in the world are you defining athleticism?

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: jesterzzn on April 15, 2014, 10:09:16 am ---How in the world are you defining athleticism?

--- End quote ---
Larry Bird was not very quick and couldn't jump very high, yet he dominated the floor on both ends. Larry is probably the least athletic superstar in the past 30 years. JMO

Of course he's a phenomenal athlete relative to the general population, but stacking him up against MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and Dominique Wilkins - he is the least athletic of the bunch.



dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: MatCauthon on April 15, 2014, 07:46:41 am ---lol no one says Bird was overrated.

--- End quote ---

There are many, but they probably haven't seen the above footage.



bigredone:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 15, 2014, 10:17:48 am ---Larry Bird was not very quick and couldn't jump very high, yet he dominated the floor on both ends. Larry is probably the least athletic superstar in the past 30 years. JMO

Of course he's a phenomenal athlete relative to the general population, but stacking him up against MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and Dominique Wilkins - he is the least athletic of the bunch.



--- End quote ---

Athleticism is great when it is just one on one, but when you get to the team sports they need to be players too. Larry Bird is one of the greatest basketball players in history, but not a world class athlete.

MJ was a world class athlete that chose to play basketball, baseball, and apparently is pretty good at golf. If he had never shot a basketball we would have been aware in some sport or another.

LJ is another world class athlete that chooses to play basketball. He happens to also have the understanding of the game to be a great basketball player.

It could be argued that great athletes are born, but great basketball (baseball, football, any other single team sport) is learned.

This also explains where good coaches come from, they are normally the ones that had to work at the game to be productive. Eddie Sutton at one time explained that he got into coaching because he couldn't jump well enough to play at the next level. He could teach what he did to players. Does anyone think MJ could teach one of us to jump and dunk as he did?

EastexHawg:

Bird's 6'9" or 6'10" height was God given, but he spent the rest of his life honing the skills that made him one of the greatest.  To me he's the epitome of the words "basketball player".

He missed almost all of his 10th season due to injury, and his back limited him for the rest of his career, but for his first nine years I think he was one of the top five players of all time.

Who else has averaged 29 ppg, 11 rebounds, and 7 assists...while shooting 52% from the floor and 43% from the 3-point line?  He shot close to 90% from the free throw line during both the regular season and the playoffs.  He was not only great, but clutch.

bigredone:

Nothing about Bird was over-rated except that he was a Celtic. The games between the Celtics and Lakers back then are unforgettable. Sadly Moncrief was stuck on the Bucks.

Breems:

If you haven't watched this yet, watch it. It's a 1.5 hour documentary on Magic and Bird.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtykEHPRO1Q

urkillnmesmalls:


--- Quote from: jesterzzn on April 15, 2014, 10:09:16 am ---How in the world are you defining athleticism?

--- End quote ---

Speed, agility, leaping ability, strength....to name a few common ones.  Which one of those are you suggesting Bird had in spades?

If you're going to suggest that Bird was athletic by the standards that most consider measurable, then you'll have to find someone else to find to argue with, because that's too silly for me to participate in.

If you want to argue that honing your shot and the mechanics behind that, as well as body positioning and court awareness represent "athletic ability" then I'll agree.  Further than that...nosir. 

I remember every now and then he'd dunk, and you'd almost hear a murmur from the crowd when people were saying, "Hey, he really can dunk."     

twistitup:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 15, 2014, 10:17:48 am ---
Of course he's a phenomenal athlete relative to the general population, but stacking him up against MJ, Kobe, LeBron, and Dominique Wilkins - he is the least athletic of the bunch.



--- End quote ---

He could out shoot any of them on any night...I guess your not including shooting ability in athleticism. There is more than quickness and vertical jump to consider here.

thirrdegreetusker:


--- Quote from: JIHawg on April 14, 2014, 10:40:01 pm ---Best hand eye coordination in human history.

--- End quote ---

My vote is for Ted Williams. Hit .388 when he was 38 years old.

thirrdegreetusker:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 15, 2014, 10:17:48 am --- Larry is probably the least athletic superstar in the past 30 years. JMO


--- End quote ---

Look up Tom Brady's combine results. He was less athletic than the second-string TE on your high school team.

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: thirrdegreetusker on April 15, 2014, 03:55:07 pm ---Look up Tom Brady's combine results. He was less athletic than the second-string TE on your high school team.

--- End quote ---
LOL! I was thinking only of basketball. Can't argue with Manning/Brady. I think I can outrun those guys.


--- Quote from: twistitup on April 15, 2014, 03:51:10 pm ---He could outshoot any of them on any night...I guess your not including shooting ability in athleticism. There is more than quickness and vertical jump to consider.

--- End quote ---
I consider shooting and dribbling skills. Leaping ability, speed, quickness and strengths are athletic attributes.

A 350 lb. lardass can step out and shoot 50% in a 3 pt contest.

I'm not saying he wasn't athletic. He was a phenomenal athlete; he just wasn't a great athlete when stacked up against other hall of famers of the past 30 years.

thirrdegreetusker:


--- Quote from: JIHawg on April 14, 2014, 10:40:01 pm ---Best hand eye coordination in human history.

--- End quote ---

For all his accomplishments, Bird had a flaw that most players fix before they get out of junior high. Look at clips of him driving the bucket. He peeks at the ball; has to look at it once in a while to dribble it.

kingofdequeen:

pardon me for not reading the whole thread, but what dumbass doesn't think larry bird is one of GOAT?

and by dumbass, i mean those people over the age of 13.

twistitup:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 15, 2014, 03:58:20 pm ---

A 350 lb. lardass can step out and shoot 50% in a 3 pt contest.



--- End quote ---

Can he run the court, play d, and talk smack too?

Do I sense a slight lack of respect for Bird?

EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: thirrdegreetusker on April 15, 2014, 03:51:48 pm ---My vote is for Ted Williams. Hit .388 when he was 38 years old.

--- End quote ---

His eyesight was off the charts.  He claimed he could see the seams on the ball when he made impact with his bat.  Based on his vision tests when he became a pilot during WWII and Korea he was probably telling the truth.

When he was managing the Rangers in the early 70s, at about 55 years of age, he was trying to teach Toby Harrah how to hit the ball not only the opposite way but where he wanted it.  Williams put a trash can in the outfield and told him to try to hit it.  Harrah said after numerous unsuccessful attempts Teddy Ballgame got disgusted, grabbed the bat, and said, "Here, this is how you do it!"

He claimed that on the first pitch Williams hit the ball in the trash can on the fly.

Sorry for the derail.

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: twistitup on April 15, 2014, 04:24:38 pm ---Can he run the court, play d, and talk smack too?

Do I sense a slight lack of respect for Bird?

--- End quote ---
No lack of respect here. I've already said he's in the same conversation with MJ, Kareem, LeBron etc.

I was just clarifying what I meant when I said he wasn't very athletic compared to his elite counterparts. I wasn't including the shooting piece, as I don't think it takes very much athleticism to be a good shooter.

husker71:

ask about Ted Williams not on the baseball diamond but as a pilot in 2 wars  best vision from all angles ever

Pork Twain:

I cannot believe people are arguing about this.  Also, who is saying Bird is overrated?  He was an amazing basketball player and there is more to that than just being a super athletic.  Harold Minor was far more athletic and called baby Jordan.  Remember all of the records he set in the NBA?

Athog:


--- Quote from: popcornhog on April 14, 2014, 11:01:48 pm ---Who said Bird was overrated?!?!

--- End quote ---

No one that watched him!!

Ramtough:

He could drive you to the goal, post you up, shoot the 3, used the backboard as well as any one who ever played the game, could go left or right, shoot with either hand, a great rebounder and if you double teamed him he would have 15 assists a game. Most complete player I've ever watched.

urkillnmesmalls:


--- Quote from: Ramtough on April 15, 2014, 08:44:31 pm ---He could drive you to the goal, post you up, shoot the 3, used the backboard as well as any one who ever played the game, could go left or right, shoot with either hand, a great rebounder and if you double teamed him he would have 15 assists a game. Most complete player I've ever watched.

--- End quote ---

Remember that little behind the neck pass he would flip with uncanny precision?  I don't think I've ever seen another player that used that particular move, but it was effective when he did it. 

What sticks out to me with Bird is that wherever he caught the ball, he could shoot it from right there on whoever was guarding him.  That little fade away was virtually unblockable by someone guarding him face up, and when he got hot you could just see his defender's face turn red with frustration. 

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: jesterzzn on April 15, 2014, 10:09:16 am ---How in the world are you defining athleticism?

--- End quote ---

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think urkillinme meant "10" as in best, "1" as in worst.

Tooth:

Saw him score 50 at Dallas in 86.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:

There are so many legendary stories about him.  One is where he got bored and started shooting it with his left hand.  The thing is, he kept going over and doing it right in front of the opposing bench, saying "left" just before he'd swish it.



Inhogswetrust:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 14, 2014, 10:04:10 pm ---Something a lot of people don't know that didn't see him play, is that he may have been the greatest trash-talker.  EVER.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NIKK_OFvFY
--- End quote ---

ANYONE that thinks Bird was overrated has an IQ in the single digits.

SquidBiily:

Bird was the most feared player in his era.  I don't mean from a fighting standpoint but from what he could do to you on the court.  There wasn't a shot he couldn't hit and he would do it no matter who was guarding him.  While MJ was much more athletic you have to remember that in his first 8 or 9 years in the league he didn't have a great jumpshot and he wasn't a good assist man.  His athleticism is what carried him.  Bird came into the league with a full arsenal of skills and the cockiness to use any of them whenever he wanted.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: ATLpiggie on April 16, 2014, 06:29:31 pm ---Bird was the most feared player in his era.  I don't mean from a fighting standpoint but from what he could do to you on the court.  There wasn't a shot he couldn't hit and he would do it no matter who was guarding him.  While MJ was much more athletic you have to remember that in his first 8 or 9 years in the league he didn't have a great jumpshot and he wasn't a good assist man.  His athleticism is what carried him.  Bird came into the league with a full arsenal of skills and the cockiness to use any of them whenever he wanted.

--- End quote ---

Yep.  Bird knew who he needed to be each game in order to win.  He was a nightmare to have to try to prepare for.  MJ was unstoppable offensively, but didn't learn how to make his teammates better until much later. 

Hogfaniam:

He pissed Dr J off enough to grab his throat and throw punches.  Very un Dr J like.

dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya:


--- Quote from: Hogfaniam on April 16, 2014, 06:38:46 pm ---He pissed Dr J off enough to grab his throat and throw punches.  Very un Dr J like.

--- End quote ---

Back in those days, during the play-offs the ball courts where full right up until the game.  Then they were empty - no one in sight.  Then after, full again.

JayBell:


--- Quote from: Notshavin on April 14, 2014, 11:35:17 pm ---No one in particular, but just kind of the "vibe" I get from the LeBron/Kobe generation.
--- End quote ---

The Lebron/Kobe generation thinks Jordan is overrated.  They think Lebron is CLEARLY better than Jordan ever was.

Yes, they are that dumb and they are that ignorant.

IMO, the NBA is the absolute worst at honoring and respecting its history.  I think MLB goes a little too far (especially with how they want to act like no one ever cheated before the steroid era), but moments like Mariano Rivera's last game don't happen in the other major American sports.  I think the NFL and NHL do a great job of honoring the past, while still promoting the current.

The NBA is Brent Musburger on steroids.  EVERYTHING HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME ANYWHERE EVER.  Kids have absolutely no idea how good anyone was before Lebron entered the league.  They don't even understand how good Shaq was, or Jordan or Bird or Magic, let alone stuff that Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were doing back in the day.  It's one of the things that turns me off so much about the current age of basketball.

trashcan maN:


--- Quote from: JayBell on April 17, 2014, 09:50:50 am ---The Lebron/Kobe generation thinks Jordan is overrated.  They think Lebron is CLEARLY better than Jordan ever was.

Yes, they are that dumb and they are that ignorant.


--- End quote ---
Alot of LeBron hate came from his early struggles in the Playoffs. Jordan didn't win jack the first half decade of his career either and was owned in the playoffs by the Celtics and Pistons early on. LeBron isn't really the same player MJ was(he's more similar to Magic IMO), but he is every bit as unstoppable. History will get it right in the end. He is every bit as good as Jordan. It's a personal opinion on who is better, but I wouldn't say either side is wrong or ignorant.

IMO Jordan was a more unstoppable and aggressive offensive force, but the defensive edge goes to LeBron. LeBron is bigger and stronger and prefers to get teammates involved, and Jordan was a smoother and purer shooter.

When LeBron left the Cavs they went from league best 61 wins to conference worst 19 wins. When Jordan left the Bulls for a year they won 1 fewer game.

EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: kj0N on April 17, 2014, 10:00:12 am ---IMO Jordan was a more unstoppable and aggressive offensive force, but the defensive edge goes to LeBron.
--- End quote ---

Jordan is co-holder of the NBA record for being named to the first team of the NBA All-Defensive Team with NINE selections.  He was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1987-88.  So far LeBron has five first team defensive selections and zero Defensive Player of the Year awards.

I'm not sure where you are going with the "LeBron is a better defender" stuff.


--- Quote ---When LeBron left the Cavs they went from league best 61 wins to conference worst 19 wins. When Jordan left the Bulls for a year they won 1 fewer game.

--- End quote ---

Jordan won the NBA title the last six years he played with the Bulls.  How many did they win without him?

Jordan's retirement is the best thing that ever happened to the Houston Rockets and Hakeem Olajuwon.

thirrdegreetusker:


--- Quote from: JayBell on April 17, 2014, 09:50:50 am ---

The NBA is Brent Musburger on steroids.  EVERYTHING HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME ANYWHERE EVER.  Kids have absolutely no idea how good anyone was before Lebron entered the league.  They don't even understand how good Shaq was, or Jordan or Bird or Magic, let alone stuff that Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were doing back in the day.  It's one of the things that turns me off so much about the current age of basketball.

--- End quote ---

Agree. The two top post men of the 60s (Russell & Chamberlain) were both world/national class high-jumpers in track. Think any of the post men today could even come close to being decent college high jumpers?

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