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The Dallas Mavs right or wrong???

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husker71:

I was looking at the Mavs roster and its hard to believe  they are only one year removed from the championship.  Starters next year Beaubouis at PG  Vince Carter, Dirk, Marion and Haywood.  This team may get a lottery pick next year.  Did Cuban do the right thing by immediatley breaking up that team last summer or should he have signed Chandler and Barrera and Stevenson and made one more shot at the rings???  I really like Cuban and he said the other day that he is not going to sign any stupid contracts.  BUT--- it could take years to get back in the race.  Any feelings on this????

The Boar War:

He went all in and looks to have busted.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: husker71 on July 09, 2012, 08:57:43 pm ---I was looking at the Mavs roster and its hard to believe  they are only one year removed from the championship.  Starters next year Beaubouis at PG  Vince Carter, Dirk, Marion and Haywood.  This team may get a lottery pick next year.  Did Cuban do the right thing by immediatley breaking up that team last summer or should he have signed Chandler and Barrera and Stevenson and made one more shot at the rings???  I really like Cuban and he said the other day that he is not going to sign any stupid contracts.  BUT--- it could take years to get back in the race.  Any feelings on this????

--- End quote ---

He couldn't afford to keep Chandler, Butler, and Barea and still have any hope of making room for DWill and/or Dwight Howard. Those first three wanted and deserved more than a one year deal.

Hindsight is 20/20, and if Cuban knew then what he knows now it's certain he would have kept Chandler and/or Barea.

Cuban and Donnie Nelson have really screwed up. Now they can really only hope to try and wait for CP3 to hit free agency and other various opportunities in 2013.

Dogtown Donkey:

It appears Andrew Bynum considers the Mavs his top 3-4 teams if he were to leave the Lakers. So, I guess they have that to fall back on. I don't know. They're in a bad spot right now, but sometimes you just have to take gambles. I think they'll be okay because Cuban is a dedicated owner and players love to play for him. He'll spend just about what he needs to have the Mavs a contender.

They still have Dirk Nowitzki. Other great players will fall over themselves to play with Dirk. Deron Williams being from the Dallas area wasn't the only reason he narrowed his list of teams to two. There's a reason why Andrew Bynum and possibly Dwight Howard have Dallas on their short list. They'll be okay. They'll attract a big fish or two.

ErieHog:

The logic in the NBA is that you never want to be caught in that nether region from being the 8th to the 20th best team in the league.   It is a self-perpetuating problem-- you either work to stay high, or sell out bottom out and build anew.      The Mavs took a gamble, and lost--- but they're in decent shape to start over, essentially.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 10, 2012, 12:30:08 am ---It appears Andrew Bynum considers the Mavs his top 3-4 teams if he were to leave the Lakers. So, I guess they have that to fall back on. I don't know. They're in a bad spot right now, but sometimes you just have to take gambles. I think they'll be okay because Cuban is a dedicated owner and players love to play for him. He'll spend just about what he needs to have the Mavs a contender.

They still have Dirk Nowitzki. Other great players will fall over themselves to play with Dirk. Deron Williams being from the Dallas area wasn't the only reason he narrowed his list of teams to two. There's a reason why Andrew Bynum and possibly Dwight Howard have Dallas on their short list. They'll be okay. They'll attract a big fish or two.

--- End quote ---

If the Lakers don't land Howard, there's no way in Hades that they let Bynum leave town. They can pay him more than anyone, at a crucial time when Kobe should be passing the torch.

I understand the perception of players wanting to play for Cuban and with Dirk....but something doesn't add up when Jet Terry quickly signs in Boston for a bargain-friendly mid-level exception of $5 million/year over three seasons just to play the same role he did in Dallas.

Or when Jason Kidd left Dallas high and dry just to play back-up to Jeremy Lin and the woeful Knicks for just $3.5 million per season?

The kicker was watching Nash utterly ignore Dallas over the four days he was up for grabs (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8143205/nba-how-steve-nash-los-angeles-lakers-happened). The Mavs had a HUGE hole at PG and a TON of money to spend. Nash and Dirk are supposed to be boys. There's an obvious connection here. Nash says he wanted to stay close to his kids and play for a contender at the same time. He says he never previously liked the idea of playing for LA. Suns ownership reportedly wanted him to go anywhere but there.

The story acts as if L.A. was the only option that fit his criteria.

It's a 2 hour flight from Phoenix to Dallas. It's a 1.5 hour flight from Phoenix to LA.

Where is Dallas' front office in all this? Paging Mark Cuban....paging Mark Cuban.

FaytownHog:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---Or when Jason Kidd left Dallas high and dry just to play back-up to Jeremy Lin and the woeful Knicks for just $3.5 million per season?

--- End quote ---
Jeremy Linn signed with the Rockets. He's no longer a Knick. Kinda funny about all those Linn Knicks jerseys they sold in that half of a season! lol.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: FaytownHog on July 10, 2012, 07:13:24 am ---Jeremy Linn signed with the Rockets. He's no longer a Knick. Kinda funny about all those Linn Knicks jerseys they sold in that half of a season! lol.

--- End quote ---

Not correct. Lin agreed to sign the Rockets' offer sheet, but he's a RFA so the Knicks can easily match and keep him (which they will once Lin can sign his offer sheet on July 11).

The Knicks have said they'd match any offer "up to one billion dollars." They will not let their Asian marketing machine leave NYC.

McKdaddy:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 08:17:05 am ---
 They will not let their Asian marketing machine leave NYC.

--- End quote ---

Good point

Fatty McGee:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---It's a 2 hour flight from Phoenix to Dallas. It's a 1.5 hour flight from Phoenix to LA.

--- End quote ---

You sure?  I think it's only an hour from LA to Phoenix and 2.5 from Dallas to Phoenix, plus a time change.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Fatty McGee on July 10, 2012, 09:00:11 am ---You sure?  I think it's only an hour from LA to Phoenix and 2.5 from Dallas to Phoenix, plus a time change.

--- End quote ---

The average flight from LA to Phoenix is an hour. And the average flight time from Dallas to Phoenix is an hour and 50 minutes. Now, if you want to add in gates, departures issues, security, etc...it adds on to each. But the flight times are linked below.

Dallas/Phoenix - http://flights.expedia.com/Flights_tfaOPHX_DDFW.htm

LA/Phoenix - http://flights.expedia.com/Flights_tfaOPHX_DLAX.htm

Dallas isn't that far away. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the Mavs were never really contenders for Nash from the onset, even with Dirk and Cuban and a recent NBA title. Any Mavs fan has to wonder why.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---If the Lakers don't land Howard, there's no way in Hades that they let Bynum leave town. They can pay him more than anyone, at a crucial time when Kobe should be passing the torch.
--- End quote ---

I see Bynum pulling a Chris Paul/Dwight Howard and forcing his way out of LA. I think he wants to be his own player and not be mentioned 2nd or 3rd behind Kobe and Gasol. Now mentioned 4th behind those two and Nash. That's just my gut. He'd probably be mentioned 2nd behind Dirk in Dallas, but I really think he just wants to get out of Kobe and Pau's shadow.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---I understand the perception of players wanting to play for Cuban and with Dirk....but something doesn't add up when Jet Terry quickly signs in Boston for a bargain-friendly mid-level exception of $5 million/year over three seasons just to play the same role he did in Dallas.
--- End quote ---

Per Jason Terry, Dallas did not even make a contract offer.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---Or when Jason Kidd left Dallas high and dry just to play back-up to Jeremy Lin and the woeful Knicks for just $3.5 million per season?
--- End quote ---

The Knicks are woeful?

They look like they have a contending roster right now to me. Just a matter of how well they gel over a full season together. Jason Kidd has always wanted to play for the Knicks. He already fulfilled his dream with the Mavs.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 am ---The kicker was watching Nash utterly ignore Dallas over the four days he was up for grabs (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8143205/nba-how-steve-nash-los-angeles-lakers-happened). The Mavs had a HUGE hole at PG and a TON of money to spend. Nash and Dirk are supposed to be boys. There's an obvious connection here. Nash says he wanted to stay close to his kids and play for a contender at the same time. He says he never previously liked the idea of playing for LA. Suns ownership reportedly wanted him to go anywhere but there.

The story acts as if L.A. was the only option that fit his criteria.

It's a 2 hour flight from Phoenix to Dallas. It's a 1.5 hour flight from Phoenix to LA.

Where is Dallas' front office in all this? Paging Mark Cuban....paging Mark Cuban.

--- End quote ---

Both the Knicks and Lakers roster appears to be much better than the Mavericks heading into next season. I'd have to say that was probably the determining factor. There's no doubt the Mavericks poorly executed whatever plan they had going into this offseason, but I'm sure they'll reload within the next 2 seasons.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 10, 2012, 12:16:46 pm ---I see Bynum pulling a Chris Paul/Dwight Howard and forcing his way out of LA. I think he wants to be his own player and not be mentioned 2nd or 3rd behind Kobe and Gasol. Now mentioned 4th behind those two and Nash. That's just my gut. He'd probably be mentioned 2nd behind Dirk in Dallas, but I really think he just wants to get out of Kobe and Pau's shadow.

Per Jason Terry, Dallas did not even make a contract offer.

The Knicks are woeful?

They look like they have a contending roster right now to me. Just a matter of how well they gel over a full season together. Jason Kidd has always wanted to play for the Knicks. He already fulfilled his dream with the Mavs.

--- End quote ---

Anything is possible with Bynum, but there's no question they value him (or Howard) as a long-term priority as he's still only just 24 years old. Gasol is more frequently mentioned as being part of various trade talks, and with Kobe and Nash having as many miles on their legs as they do, I don't see how the Lakers would ever let Bynum walk. He'd be walking away from more money and more prestige over the long haul.

Dallas couldn't afford to offer Terry while they chased DWill and Howard. I'm just surprised that Terry signed as quickly as he did. He reportedly had just three offers, but had he waited just a few more days and let the DWill/Nash dominoes fall, he wouldn't have lost out on anything. He may have even had more competition for his services. Again...Dallas' laissez-faire approach has me scratching my head.

Do you know how many playoff wins the Knicks have over the past ten years? Not series wins. Actual, individual playoff game wins......they've won one playoff game in ten years. That's woeful. They fired their head coach mid-season. They have obvious chemistry and style of play issues between Lin and Carmelo. Amare is a shell of his former self. They just signed two aging vets in Kidd and Camby.  This is a front office that could do the unimaginable and rehire Isiah Thomas in a New York second. They need new ownership in a major way.



ErieHog:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 02:43:24 pm ---Anything is possible with Bynum, but there's no question they value him (or Howard) as a long-term priority as he's still only just 24 years old. Gasol is more frequently mentioned as being part of various trade talks, and with Kobe and Nash having as many miles on their legs as they do, I don't see how the Lakers would ever let Bynum walk. He'd be walking away from more money and more prestige over the long haul.

Dallas couldn't afford to offer Terry while they chased DWill and Howard. I'm just surprised that Terry signed as quickly as he did. He reportedly had just three offers, but had he waited just a few more days and let the DWill/Nash dominoes fall, he wouldn't have lost out on anything. He may have even had more competition for his services. Again...Dallas' laissez-faire approach has me scratching my head.

Do you know how many playoff wins the Knicks have over the past ten years? Not series wins. Actual, individual playoff game wins......they've won one playoff game in ten years. That's woeful. They fired their head coach mid-season. They have obvious chemistry and style of play issues between Lin and Carmelo. Amare is a shell of his former self. They just signed two aging vets in Kidd and Camby.  This is a front office that could do the unimaginable and rehire Isiah Thomas in a New York second. They need new ownership in a major way.



--- End quote ---

The Knicks need to rehire Isaiah.    A few bits of his legacy as an all-time great basketball player have floated back up again, and he needs another opportunity to finish flushing them.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 02:43:24 pm ---Anything is possible with Bynum, but there's no question they value him (or Howard) as a long-term priority as he's still only just 24 years old. Gasol is more frequently mentioned as being part of various trade talks, and with Kobe and Nash having as many miles on their legs as they do, I don't see how the Lakers would ever let Bynum walk. He'd be walking away from more money and more prestige over the long haul.
--- End quote ---

I think the market for Gasol is small given his age and contract. I don't think Bynum will have to accept less money to leave LA. He just has to tell them he is leaving and they'll do a sign and trade with whatever team he wants to go to. I can't think of the last time a big name did leave without a sign and trade. I know the Cavs did one with LeBron, not sure if the Raptors did one with Bosh.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 10, 2012, 02:43:24 pm ---Do you know how many playoff wins the Knicks have over the past ten years? Not series wins. Actual, individual playoff game wins......they've won one playoff game in ten years. That's woeful. They fired their head coach mid-season. They have obvious chemistry and style of play issues between Lin and Carmelo. Amare is a shell of his former self. They just signed two aging vets in Kidd and Camby.  This is a front office that could do the unimaginable and rehire Isiah Thomas in a New York second. They need new ownership in a major way.

--- End quote ---

Obviously, they haven't had any playoff success since the last lockout shortened season, but I like their make-up and I think they'll find success with a full training camp and the luxury of having their roster intact from the start. Lin emerged in-season for them and they also had injuries with Melo and Amare. I think they'll be very motivated this season.

What happened in the past 10 years isn't really relevant to me right now. Those were different rosters. I'd be very surprised if they didn't make it out of the 1st round this year. Very surprised. I think they could go to the ECF this year.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 10, 2012, 02:53:43 pm ---I think the market for Gasol is small given his age and contract. I don't think Bynum will have to accept less money to leave LA. He just has to tell them he is leaving and they'll do a sign and trade with whatever team he wants to go to. I can't think of the last time a big name did leave without a sign and trade. I know the Cavs did one with LeBron, not sure if the Raptors did one with Bosh.

Obviously, they haven't had any playoff success since the last lockout shortened season, but I like their make-up and I think they'll find success with a full training camp and the luxury of having their roster intact from the start. Lin emerged in-season for them and they also had injuries with Melo and Amare. I think they'll be very motivated this season.

What happened in the past 10 years isn't really relevant to me right now. Those were different rosters. I'd be very surprised if they didn't make it out of the 1st round this year. Very surprised. I think they could go to the ECF this year.

--- End quote ---

Gasol's name has been mentioned in trades almost weekly for at least the past two years. The TWolves, Rockets, Hawks, and Bulls have all been very recently known potential trade partners with the Lakers for Gasol. He only has two years left on his deal, and even at $19 million/year, quite a few teams can create that space (see all in the Dwight Howard/DWill sweepstakes).

Until someone with some actual clout can get through to Carmelo and make him understand the need to play defense and stop Iso-killing his team's offense as he so often does, the Knicks will continue to be an expensive roster with a lot of issues.



MB Hog:

Never know what Cuban can pull off, but it sounds like it's wait until next year now.  I think the main reason they didn't spend their money on Terry, Nash, etc. is they want one-year contracts so they can keep that cap space open and try to land a star player again next year.  If they miss next year, they probably trade Dirk and start from scratch.

husker71:

They will never trade Dirk, besides he only has maybe 2 years left to stay at his level.  The Knicks are the worst put together team I have seen.  Amare was (his injuries have taken away alot of his game) one of the great pic and roll players, but they cant do it because the guy covering chandler cand just step over.  Anthony needs the ball alot to be successful and happy and the backcourt is weak (Lin and Kidd)  Novak was shut down when needed by teams but Shumpert shows some promise.  One guy was touting this as the best frontline in basketball individually maybe but not together they just get in each others way. Dont even get me started on defense

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: husker71 on July 10, 2012, 04:58:13 pm ---They will never trade Dirk, besides he only has maybe 2 years left to stay at his level.  The Knicks are the worst put together team I have seen.  Amare was (his injuries have taken away alot of his game) one of the great pic and roll players, but they cant do it because the guy covering chandler cand just step over.  Anthony needs the ball alot to be successful and happy and the backcourt is weak (Lin and Kidd)  Novak was shut down when needed by teams but Shumpert shows some promise.  One guy was touting this as the best frontline in basketball individually maybe but not together they just get in each others way. Dont even get me started on defense

--- End quote ---

I can think of at least 10 teams that are put together worse than NY.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 10, 2012, 04:59:43 pm ---I can think of at least 10 teams that are put together worse than NY.

--- End quote ---

Really?

There are teams that have LOFT problems, teams that have cap crunches, teams that are young, and teams that are injury plagued-- but at least what they are trying to do makes a little sense, if you can see where it breaks down.

The Knicks don't make sense even if you assume they get the best possible production out of everyone on that roster.     It's a fantasy team with one basketball and poor defense on the wings, even in the best of worlds.

Fatty McGee:

Dirk could go 5 more years at this level. It's not like his game is based on athleticism. He's still going to be 7 foot and able to shoot from anywhere.

twistitup:

Cuban blew it up with a plan in mind

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on July 10, 2012, 05:02:50 pm ---Really?

There are teams that have LOFT problems, teams that have cap crunches, teams that are young, and teams that are injury plagued-- but at least what they are trying to do makes a little sense, if you can see where it breaks down.

The Knicks don't make sense even if you assume they get the best possible production out of everyone on that roster.     It's a fantasy team with one basketball and poor defense on the wings, even in the best of worlds.

--- End quote ---

The Knicks are at least a top 5 team in the East.

nwarazfan:

Cuban knows what he is doing.  He has said that he doesn't want to end up one of those perennial 42-40 teams getting a mid playoff seed aka the Hawks.  That is the worst thing you can be in the NBA. 

TexHog188:

Cuban rolled the dice and got snake eyes. Chris Kaman is the consolation prize. I'm a big Mavs fan being in Dallas, but it will be tough to watch this team next year.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: TexHog188 on July 11, 2012, 07:30:04 pm ---Cuban rolled the dice and got snake eyes. Chris Kaman is the consolation prize. I'm a big Mavs fan being in Dallas, but it will be tough to watch this team next year.

--- End quote ---

Dallas is making very good short-term moves that will keep them playoff bound this coming season. I wouldn't expect them to be too tough to watch.

Chris Kaman on a one-year deal and they signed-and-traded Ian Mahinmi for the expiring contracts of Darren Collison and Dahntay Jones. Made a good long-term move, too, by using the amnesty clause on Brendan Haywood. They had two very good, NBA-ready 2nd round picks in Bernard James and Jae Crowder. They probably will bring Delonte West back as well. If Roddy Beaubois can finally show some real signs of being anything close to the player many acted like he would be coming into the league, they'll be a 6-8 seed again.

CDBHawg:


--- Quote from: twistitup on July 11, 2012, 06:41:33 am ---Cuban blew it up with a plan in mind

--- End quote ---

And a ring on his finger.

husker71:

I agree with NWARAZFAN   the absolute worse place to be is the 4 through 8 seed year after year after year.  Very little chance of getting a player through the draft who can help you and chances are you are paying to much for your 1 or 2 good players in order to keep fans coming at least to see them.  Best chance is to get into the lottery and hope you get lucky.  Cuban is smart enough to refuse to sign bad contracts while the Knicks Dolan has seemed to be oblivious to what Isiah was doing.They spend 55 million a year for a front line that cannot play together.  The contract that is killing them is the Amare one because no one wants him or the contract so no trading that.  Hell, they cant even get insurance for his legs  They are in a tough position but all self inflicted.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: husker71 on July 12, 2012, 08:06:47 am ---I agree with NWARAZFAN   the absolute worse place to be is the 4 through 8 seed year after year after year.  Very little chance of getting a player through the draft who can help you and chances are you are paying to much for your 1 or 2 good players in order to keep fans coming at least to see them.  Best chance is to get into the lottery and hope you get lucky. 

--- End quote ---

Take it from a Rockets fan, it's hard. The Rockets were/are the posters boys for what you just described. To top it off, the one time they had a bad enough season to get into the top 10 of the draft, they go and trade Rudy Guy and trade him for Shane Battier.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm just cursed. Started being a Rockets fan about 10 years ago, I'm a Hogs fan, and the Reds are my baseball. Oh, and the Redskins for football.

Dogtown Donkey:

Reports says Elton Brand is hopeful the Mavericks will put a bid in for him. They'd have to pay his 18 million dollar salary, but he only has one year left on his deal so it falls in line with their strategy of cap-preservation. If they added him, they'd be right around the salary cap limit but not in danger of paying the luxury tax (I don't think).

Brand clearly isn't the player he once was, but he'd be great for the Mavericks to put next to Dirk. He played for Philadelphia last season, in a perimeter-oriented offense (3 of their top 4 scorers were perimeter players), so I'd expect his scoring numbers to rise in Dallas where they'd work through him and Dirk.

I have not read anything about the Mavs' willingness to bid on him, though.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 08:43:57 am ---I'm starting to wonder if I'm just cursed. Started being a Rockets fan about 10 years ago, I'm a Hogs fan, and the Reds are my baseball. Oh, and the Redskins for football.

--- End quote ---

There's got to be a lot of red in your wardrobe.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 09:07:22 am ---Reports says Elton Brand is hopeful the Mavericks will put a bid in for him. They'd have to pay his 18 million dollar salary, but he only has one year left on his deal so it falls in line with their strategy of cap-preservation. If they added him, they'd be right around the salary cap limit but not in danger of paying the luxury tax (I don't think).

Brand clearly isn't the player he once was, but he'd be great for the Mavericks to put next to Dirk. He played for Philadelphia last season, in a perimeter-oriented offense (3 of their top 4 scorers were perimeter players), so I'd expect his scoring numbers to rise in Dallas where they'd work through him and Dirk.

I have not read anything about the Mavs' willingness to bid on him, though.

--- End quote ---

Now that they have Kaman, I'd be shocked if they went after Brand at that price. Kaman and Dirk will be the starting front line, and paying Brand that type of money to come off the bench is tough to imagine.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 10:54:59 am ---Now that they have Kaman, I'd be shocked if they went after Brand at that price. Kaman and Dirk will be the starting front line, and paying Brand that type of money to come off the bench is tough to imagine.

--- End quote ---

It's just a one year deal, though. If they don't really have any other options, and they aren't in the luxury tax, they might as well. He could also be used in a potential deal for Dwight Howard since his salary is so big. They could just not put a claim in and then sign him since he wants to play for them.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 11:09:55 am ---It's just a one year deal, though. If they don't really have any other options, and they aren't in the luxury tax, they might as well. He could also be used in a potential deal for Dwight Howard since his salary is so big. They could just not put a claim in and then sign him since he wants to play for them.

--- End quote ---

I'd be shocked if Orlando sees any value in taking on Elton Brand (I know it's a cash dump). They've been very clear in what they're looking to take back in a trade for Howard. I don't disagree that the Mavs have the ability to take on Brand for this one season, but for a reserve they may want to go a little younger.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 01:20:33 pm ---I'd be shocked if Orlando sees any value in taking on Elton Brand (I know it's a cash dump). They've been very clear in what they're looking to take back in a trade for Howard. I don't disagree that the Mavs have the ability to take on Brand for this one season, but for a reserve they may want to go a little younger.

--- End quote ---

They'd almost have to include Brand if there were to take back any salary from the Magic (Richardson or Turkoglu). There's no way Dwight Howard gets traded without at least one of those guys leaving with him.

HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 01:28:11 pm ---They'd almost have to include Brand if there were to take back any salary from the Magic (Richardson or Turkoglu). There's no way Dwight Howard gets traded without at least one of those guys leaving with him.

--- End quote ---

Well that's a different story altogether if you start automatically assuming Dallas would have to accept Richardson and/or others as well in any deal.

 I realize the Nets would have had to cross that bridge had their deal gotten done, but by the time they're able to start talking deals again in January, the Magic won't have NEARLY as much leverage since the looming trade deadline will be their last chance to move him while the Magic have say over the compensation they'd receive (assuming they'd likely do a sign and trade in the off-season to get Howard max dollars and maximum return on the team HE would then choose in the off-season). At that point I highly doubt the Magic will be able to dictate the addition of bad contracts into any deal for Howard.

Dallas hasn't been known to be nearly as aggressive as Houston and Golden St. have been by letting it be known they're willing to trade assets for the likelihood that they'd only be getting Howard for half a season. Howard has given no indication that he wants to stay in Dallas. Does it make sense that Dallas would go out and sign Brand with the idea that they'd use him at the trade deadline for Howard, considering they've not really been in the serious mix for Howard for the past six months?

Even with Brand, one has to also wonder if the Mavs could even put together a package that could sway the Magic enough to go beyond what Houston and L.A. would offer. I think the Mavs have to realize this, and landing Brand for such a steep price could really harm them when the time came to make trades and they find they used their flexibility to sign Brand instead of finding more desirable assets to work with.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 02:44:51 pm ---Well that's a different story altogether if you start automatically assuming Dallas would have to accept Richardson and/or others as well in any deal.
--- End quote ---

I'm not assuming anything. But if Dallas does a straight up trade with Orlando, they're going to have to take a bad contract, maybe even two. That's anyone that wants Dwight without a 3rd team involved.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 02:44:51 pm --- I realize the Nets would have had to cross that bridge had their deal gotten done, but by the time they're able to start talking deals again in January, the Magic won't have NEARLY as much leverage since the looming trade deadline will be their last chance to move him while the Magic have say over the compensation they'd receive (assuming they'd likely do a sign and trade in the off-season to get Howard max dollars and maximum return on the team HE would then choose in the off-season). At that point I highly doubt the Magic will be able to dictate the addition of bad contracts into any deal for Howard.
--- End quote ---

Heard the same thing about Carmelo Anthony when he wanted out of Denver. Worked out pretty well for Denver.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 02:44:51 pm ---Dallas hasn't been known to be nearly as aggressive as Houston and Golden St. have been by letting it be known they're willing to trade assets for the likelihood that they'd only be getting Howard for half a season. Howard has given no indication that he wants to stay in Dallas. Does it make sense that Dallas would go out and sign Brand with the idea that they'd use him at the trade deadline for Howard, considering they've not really been in the serious mix for Howard for the past six months?
--- End quote ---

Per Chad Ford:


--- Quote ---If the Magic hold onto him all year? Yes. My guess is he'll go to Dallas. They'll have the room and he's made it clear that's his second option after Brooklyn.
--- End quote ---

This has also been known since around the week of the draft. I've seen other "insiders" echo that. He'll reluctantly bump Dallas up to #1. That's the whole reason why I brought up a possible trade.

Also, I never said Dallas would be signing Elton Brand just for a Dwight Howard trade. I just said he would be useful in said trade given his short, expensive contract. I just referenced a possible trade as a reason why they would put a bid in for an 18 million dollar contract, since you seemed not to be able to swallow them paying a back-up that kind of money. It's all a game. That 18 million dollars for one year is part of the game. It's not about starting/coming off the bench or deserves the money/doesn't deserve the money. Different players get all kinds of different amounts of money for different reasons. As long as they aren't paying the luxury tax while fielding a 6-8 seed, Dallas is fine exceeding the cap a bit if it helps them make another move.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 02:44:51 pm ---Even with Brand, one has to also wonder if the Mavs could even put together a package that could sway the Magic enough to go beyond what Houston and L.A. would offer. I think the Mavs have to realize this, and landing Brand for such a steep price could really harm them when the time came to make trades and they find they used their flexibility to sign Brand instead of finding more desirable assets to work with.

--- End quote ---

I'd imagine it would have to be a 3 team or 4 team deal. The Mavericks don't have a ton of assets, but he apparently does want to go there or will agree to go there. That puts them in position. How good of a position remains to be seen.


HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---I'm not assuming anything. But if Dallas does a straight up trade with Orlando, they're going to have to take a bad contract, maybe even two. That's anyone that wants Dwight without a 3rd team involved.
--- End quote ---

The Nets could have done it on their own with a max-deal Lopez, Humphries, and draft picks. Orlando didn't want Humphries and found the draft picks to be lacking projected on where they'd likely be. The third team had to be added just so the Nets could add something else to sweeten the deal for Orlando. It wasn't enough to entice Orlando to not favor the better package from Houston. And they certainly don't appear to want to settle for what they still consider to be a sub-par deal with the Rockets. The Magic know they have a top 5 NBA player they're looking to move. They don't want to accept 50 cents on the dollar quality-wise right now if they don't have to.


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---Heard the same thing about Carmelo Anthony when he wanted out of Denver. Worked out pretty well for Denver.
--- End quote ---

The Knicks had a LOT of good to decent assets they could move for Anthony, whereas the Mavs do not. Not many interested teams do, otherwise this deal would likely already be done.


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---Per Chad Ford:

This has also been known since around the week of the draft. I've seen other "insiders" echo that. He'll reluctantly bump Dallas up to #1. That's the whole reason why I brought up a possible trade.

Also, I never said Dallas would be signing Elton Brand just for a Dwight Howard trade. I just said he would be useful in said trade given his short, expensive contract. I just referenced a possible trade as a reason why they would put a bid in for an 18 million dollar contract, since you seemed not to be able to swallow them paying a back-up that kind of money. It's all a game. That 18 million dollars for one year is part of the game. It's not about starting/coming off the bench or deserves the money/doesn't deserve the money. Different players get all kinds of different amounts of money for different reasons. As long as they aren't paying the luxury tax while fielding a 6-8 seed, Dallas is fine exceeding the cap a bit if it helps them make another move.

--- End quote ---

I get that about Dallas being possible option #2, but the one thing we know for fact from Dwight Howard (and not a guess from a media member) is that he made it crystal clear that the ONLY team he wanted to sign an extension for was Brooklyn. He didn't choose to mention Dallas or L.A. or Atlanta. He certainly could have if he wanted to. Who knows if that will change before next summer? It certainly can, especially if Chris Paul dictates as much with his future after this coming season. Again though, that's why I don't think we should assume that Howard will "reluctantly bump Dallas up to #1."

How many other players make $15+ million/year to come off the bench? I can't think of one. Players salaries can have a huge impact on chemistry. One very recent example is Yahoo Sports' report last week that Rondo's contract (and attitude after the signing) was one the main reasons he and Ray Allen didn't get along and led to Allen leaving for Miami. If Elton Brand is your 2nd highest paid player (he would be for the Mavs), and he's splitting bench minutes with Brandon Wright, what does that say to agents and future free agents who look at Dallas and see them throwing mad cash for just about anyone simply because they have room to spend? It's bad business.

Dallas has plenty of room to chase CP3 and/or Howard after next season. They  don't need Brand's contract to do it, and the Magic don't appear to be wanting to hand over Howard for expiring contracts. They want talent to replace talent. 


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---I'd imagine it would have to be a 3 team or 4 team deal. The Mavericks don't have a ton of assets, but he apparently does want to go there or will agree to go there. That puts them in position. How good of a position remains to be seen.

--- End quote ---

I think by the time we get past the amnesty period and next season's trade deadline, it won't take more than two partners to work the Magic for any sort of deal. Teams have been and will be positioning themselves until and through the deadline if need be to ensure they're in the best position to acquire Howard. Atlanta, Houston, and both of the L.A. teams appear to have as much chance as Dallas does, especially considering the subpar roster Dallas currently has found themselves with going into this season. If Dallas can make a connection to CP3, I'd think it's a no brainer for Dallas to be the favorite.

I still envision CP3 working with Clipper management (if and when they decide to hire a GM) to bring Howard to Lob City (even at the cost of trading a newly resigned Blake Griffin).

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 03:36:49 pm ---The Nets could have done it on their own with a max-deal Lopez, Humphries, and draft picks. Orlando didn't want Humphries and found the draft picks to be lacking projected on where they'd likely be. The third team had to be added just so the Nets could add something else to sweeten the deal for Orlando. It wasn't enough to entice Orlando to not favor the better package from Houston. And they certainly don't appear to want to settle for what they still consider to be a sub-par deal with the Rockets. The Magic know they have a top 5 NBA player they're looking to move. They don't want to accept 50 cents on the dollar quality-wise right now if they don't have to.
--- End quote ---

And they probably won't......right now. There might come a time where they can get 50 cents or no cents.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 03:36:49 pm ---I get that about Dallas being possible option #2, but the one thing we know for fact from Dwight Howard (and not a guess from a media member) is that he made it crystal clear that the ONLY team he wanted to sign an extension for was Brooklyn. He didn't choose to mention Dallas or L.A. or Atlanta. He certainly could have if he wanted to. Who knows if that will change before next summer? It certainly can, especially if Chris Paul dictates as much with his future after this coming season. Again though, that's why I don't think we should assume that Howard will "reluctantly bump Dallas up to #1."
--- End quote ---

So, is he going to retire when a Brooklyn deal doesn't materialize? He has to play somewhere. It isn't going to be Orlando, and it probably isn't going to be Brooklyn.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 03:36:49 pm ---How many other players make $15+ million/year to come off the bench? I can't think of one. Players salaries can have a huge impact on chemistry. One very recent example is Yahoo Sports' report last week that Rondo's contract (and attitude after the signing) was one the main reasons he and Ray Allen didn't get along and led to Allen leaving for Miami. If Elton Brand is your 2nd highest paid player (he would be for the Mavs), and he's splitting bench minutes with Brandon Wright, what does that say to agents and future free agents who look at Dallas and see them throwing mad cash for just about anyone simply because they have room to spend? It's bad business.
--- End quote ---

Manu Ginobili makes 14 million a year. Rashard Lewis made like 20 million last year and only started about half of the games he played in. Brandon Roy only started about half of the games he played in the last season he played and made 13.5 million. I realize you said 15+ million, but that's really just an arbitrary number. Obviously, it doesn't happen often, but we haven't seen this kind of CBA/salary cap game climate. We're going to see a lot more of people utilizing big one year deals if they have the space. Everything is going to be much more measured now.

But, my point was never that Dallas should put a bid in at 18 million for Elton Brand. My point was only that he'd be a great addition and he's interested. I briefly mentioned that they could use his 18 million dollar salary for a trade. I never said it was likely.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 03:36:49 pm ---Dallas has plenty of room to chase CP3 and/or Howard after next season. They  don't need Brand's contract to do it, and the Magic don't appear to be wanting to hand over Howard for expiring contracts. They want talent to replace talent. 
--- End quote ---

I think you're blowing what I said completely out of proportion for the sake of argument. It's pretty simple what I was saying. Brooklyn is pretty much out of the Howard sweepstakes and there has been at least some mention of Dwight considering Dallas. If you're Dallas, and you know Dwight is interested or think he might be, don't you go after him? Right, of course you do.....and to do that, you're going to need a big contract like Elton Brand's. That's all I was saying. My point was never that Elton Brand puts Dallas in excellent position to get Dwight Howard. My point was only that they could put a bit in for him at his slated salary as opposed to waiting to see if he clears waivers for the purposes of a trade.


HawgAdvocate:


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:58:10 pm ---And they probably won't......right now. There might come a time where they can get 50 cents or no cents.
--- End quote ---

I certainly agree, and have alluded to that quite a bit in this discussion, but looking at the context of this discussion and the past few quotes we've posted, Dallas needs to come up with a lot more than Brand to rival what other teams can offer. If Dallas wants a spot at the table in this thing, they better find/create for themselves some valuable assets in a hurry.


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---So, is he going to retire when a Brooklyn deal doesn't materialize? He has to play somewhere. It isn't going to be Orlando, and it probably isn't going to be Brooklyn.
--- End quote ---

I've listed quite a few options that are definitely still in play. Sure, he used the "only Brooklyn" tag to try and force his way to where he wanted to be. Now that the Nets are truly out of it, he could change his message to focus on another team come the trading deadline. Based on what happens between now and the trading deadline, and knowing how often Howard flip-flops on his decision making, anything is possible. I don't think CP3 will have a definite new team in mind by the deadline (if he hasn't signed an extension with the Clips by then), so I don't know if Howard will still try to force a certain destination (unless it is the Clips or Lakers) by the deadline either.



--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---Manu Ginobili makes 14 million a year. Rashard Lewis made like 20 million last year and only started about half of the games he played in. Brandon Roy only started about half of the games he played in the last season he played and made 13.5 million. I realize you said 15+ million, but that's really just an arbitrary number. Obviously, it doesn't happen often, but we haven't seen this kind of CBA/salary cap game climate. We're going to see a lot more of people utilizing big one year deals if they have the space. Everything is going to be much more measured now.

--- End quote ---

Come on now. Everyone knows that Rashard Lewis' value died years ago and no one in the galaxy right now thinks his contract was worth it. Hence why he was bought out almost immediately after being traded for and has since signed for the veteran's minimum (1.3 million) with the Heat. Brandon Roy was worth his money, but his knees forced his retirement. Neither is the same as simply paying $15+ million for a serviceable, veteran bench player and seeing actual value in it. Manu is still an elite player and can play three positions for San Antonio.

Brand averaged 8.6 points and 4.8 boards last season. He's worth roughly a third of what you suggested Dallas should/could spend on him.


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---But, my point was never that Dallas should put a bid in at 18 million for Elton Brand. My point was only that he'd be a great addition and he's interested. I briefly mentioned that they could use his 18 million dollar salary for a trade. I never said it was likely.
--- End quote ---

Fair point. If they can get him for less than $10 million/year then I'd agree. I was basing my responses on the notion that you felt the Mavs should get Brand for three reasons:

A) It's a one year deal
B) It'd help land Howard
C) The Mavs have room to take on $18 million for Brand

That's why I've offered rebuttals that center around those three topics.


--- Quote from: Dogtown Donkey on July 12, 2012, 03:09:50 pm ---I think you're blowing what I said completely out of proportion for the sake of argument. It's pretty simple what I was saying. Brooklyn is pretty much out of the Howard sweepstakes and there has been at least some mention of Dwight considering Dallas. If you're Dallas, and you know Dwight is interested or think he might be, don't you go after him? Right, of course you do.....and to do that, you're going to need a big contract like Elton Brand's. That's all I was saying. My point was never that Elton Brand puts Dallas in excellent position to get Dwight Howard. My point was only that they could put a bit in for him at his slated salary as opposed to waiting to see if he clears waivers for the purposes of a trade.

--- End quote ---

I don't feel I'm blowing anything out of proportion or looking to argue, as I'm just enjoying a healthy NBA discussion. I've certainly acknowledged that Dallas has been considered and mentioned in this Howard saga. Looking back at our posts on this subject, it's been about acquiring Brand in an effort to ultimately acquire Howard.

I consider you to be one of the better posters on Jump Ball, so please don't take my words as an insult. I simply disagreed with your initial Brand/Mavs/Howard thoughts due to other, stronger variables that still prevent Dallas from being a trade partner for Howard's services.

HawgAdvocate:

It appears now that the Mavs will make a heavy push for newly amnestied Luis Scola and/or Elton Brand. The Rockets are certainly making room.

The Rockets are about to acquire Howard + baggage it seems. They have to think they'll have either Howard or Bynum in the years to come.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 04:46:18 pm ---Come on now. Everyone knows that Rashard Lewis' value died years ago and no one in the galaxy right now thinks his contract is worth it. Hence why he's been amnestied and will likely soon be a discounted price addition to a contender. Brandon Roy was worth his money, but his knees forced his retirement. Neither is the same as simply paying $15+ million for a serviceable, veteran bench player and seeing actual value in it. Manu is still an elite player and can play three positions for San Antonio.

Brand averaged 8.6 points and 4.8 boards last season. He's worth roughly a third of what you suggested Dallas should/could spend on him.
--- End quote ---

What good are facts if they're just immediately dismissed? You said you couldn't think of any players making that kind of money that came off the bench. I provided some.

You posted his playoff averages.  He averaged 11 PPG, 7.2 RPG and 1.6 BPG on nearly 50% from the field in the 2011-2012 regular season.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 04:46:18 pm ---Fair point. If they can get him for less than $10 million/year then I'd agree. I was basing my responses on the notion that you felt the Mavs should get Brand for three reasons:

A) It's a one year deal
B) It'd help land Howard
C) The Mavs have room to take on $18 million for Brand

That's why I've offered rebuttals that center around those three topics.
--- End quote ---

Actually, I never said they should get Elton Brand. I said he wanted them to pick him up. I stated that I had not read of any mutual interest, just Brand's interest. I think he helps that team stay in the playoffs. That's why I think it would be a good fit. I really only started talking his big contract because he said he wanted them to put a bid in, so that got me to thinking about why they might do that. I looked at their salaries situation and came to the conclusion that it doesn't really hurt them to take on that salary since they only have a couple of spots to fill anyway.


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 04:46:18 pm ---I don't feel I'm blowing anything out of proportion or looking to argue, as I'm just enjoying a healthy NBA discussion. I've certainly acknowledged that Dallas has been considered and mentioned in this Howard saga. Looking back at our posts on this subject, it's been about acquiring Brand in an effort to ultimately acquire Howard.

I consider you to be one of the better posters on Jump Ball, so please don't take my words as an insult. I simply disagreed with your initial Brand/Mavs/Howard thoughts due to other, stronger variables that still prevent Dallas from being a trade partner for Howard's services.

--- End quote ---

Fair enough.

I just think that they would have option with Brand if they were to take on the 18 million, whether it be for Dwight Howard or some other trade situation. I think if they did (thought unlikely) take on his deal as is, it would be because they intend to make a run at Howard. They could still do that anyway, but they could just as easily sign him once he clear waivers (and I'm sure he will) for the minimum or a reasonable price. Not sure how much he could command right now with teams knowing he's get 18 million from the Sixers.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: HawgAdvocate on July 12, 2012, 05:34:49 pm ---It appears now that the Mavs will make a heavy push for newly amnestied Luis Scola and/or Elton Brand. The Rockets are certainly making room.

The Rockets are about to acquire Howard + baggage it seems. They have to think they'll have either Howard or Bynum in the years to come.

--- End quote ---

Damn, not sure how I feel about the Rockets just letting Scola go. No one wanted him?

Better pay off.

Dogtown Donkey:

Teams under the cap bid on players who are waiver under the amnesty clause, so no one will be taking on 18 million dollars this year for Elton Brand. Highest bid gets Brand, and Philly has to pay the difference between that and the 18 million. If no one bids, Brand goes free and Philly is on the hook for the whole 18 million.

I knew this, but apparently forgot. I remember the Clippers winning the bid for Billups last season. At least I think I remember the process working like this last year. I'm still trying to play catch up and get up to speed with the NBA procedures after a couple of years of indifference to the league.

gguillo:

Was putting all his chips on DWILL.  Blew up in his face, but he did all he could to land him.

Dogtown Donkey:

Mavericks putting in winning bid for Elton Brand. No word on how much their bid was.

OnTheHillHogFan:

2.1 million was the bid for Brand. Nice recovery by the Mavs the past few days.

The_Bionic_Pig:

Former Mav Jason Kidd just got a DWI following traffic accident...

Dogtown Donkey:

Mavericks have signed O.J. May for 2 years (player option on 2nd year).

ErieHog:

Mayo is a solid pick up for the Mavs, who do seem to be recovering a little from early offseason stumbles.

I still think they're in the back half of the Western Conference playoff picture, though.

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