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The New NBA Golden Age?

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Fatty McGee:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/45801/the-nbas-next-golden-age-starts-now

Are we witnessing its beginning?

"But let these NBA Finals serve as a wake-up call to the idea that hoops could be like sprinting. It could be they have just gotten better and better, even if the reputation hasn't kept up.

The things we can measure show that today's players are bigger, faster and stronger. Today's NBA players shoot about eight times as many 3-pointers per game than players in the 1980s -- and instead of making fewer than 30 percent like they did back then, now they make more than 35 percent most seasons.

It was once considered virtually a miracle when someone took off from the free-throw line in a dunk contest. Now itís rote, not just because so many have done it in the days since Dr. J, but because now all kinds of players can do it.

I can hear you already: But today's players don't create beautiful team offense like, say, Magic's Lakers. Agreed! What you see on ESPN Classic surely is electric good fun. But look at the defense in those old videos. It's simply nothing like today. The old-school players are shorter, slower, weaker and don't help, recover, rotate and close out anything like today's defenders.

I shudder to think what LeBron James and Kevin Durant would do in single coverage against Larry Bird.

If history has taught us anything, it's that people will cling to icons. Just ask Jordan. He was the best player in the league for years before most would let go of the idea Bird and Magic were better."

HogFaninMemphis:

Go Grizzlies!  haha but seriously I do think there is growing interest in the NBA right now; fixing the flopping thing I think will be huge in the long-run.

nwarazfan:

I'm with Phil Jackson.  The NBA is not watchable or entertaining.  Pick and roll, two man basketball until someone flops isn't worth watching.  It is like watching pro wrasslin. 

Smithian:


--- Quote from: nwarazfan on June 25, 2012, 02:35:45 pm ---I'm with Phil Jackson.  The NBA is not watchable or entertaining.  Pick and roll, two man basketball until someone flops isn't worth watching.  It is like watching pro wrasslin. 

--- End quote ---
In the 90's they didn't even allow zone defense. I prefer watching a game that isn't tons of 1-on-1 isolation. The game is much more 5-man oriented today than it was 15 years ago.

Dogtown Donkey:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 02:40:40 pm ---In the 90's they didn't even allow zone defense. I prefer watching a game that isn't tons of 1-on-1 isolation. The game is much more 5-man oriented today than it was 15 years ago.

--- End quote ---

Yeeeeeah.....okay.


Hogimus Prime:

If Bird, Magic And Jordan played in todays NBA they'd average close to 40 something points a game.  The rules today benefit the offense more than they did prior to the mid 90's.

Smithian:


--- Quote from: Hogimus Prime on June 25, 2012, 03:02:54 pm ---If Bird, Magic And Jordan played in todays NBA they'd average close to 40 something points a game.  The rules today benefit the offense more than they did prior to the mid 90's.

--- End quote ---
Oh really? Those who never played against a zone defense? They'd still be great but let's cool off with the "40 ppg".

Hogimus Prime:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 03:47:38 pm ---Oh really? Those who never played against a zone defense? They'd still be great but let's cool off with the "40 ppg".

--- End quote ---


Well Jordan averaged around 30 for his career so with the rules today I think 40 would be possible for Jordan.

HogFaninMemphis:


--- Quote from: Hogimus Prime on June 25, 2012, 04:07:36 pm ---
Well Jordan averaged around 30 for his career so with the rules today I think 40 would be possible for Jordan.

--- End quote ---
There's only a finite number of possessions in a game, and number of possessions per game are down from where they were 20-30 years ago. 
I think zone defenses would benefit the outside scorers like Bird because of the fact that zone defenses allow for 3-point shooters to get open a good amount of the time. 

hoglady:

I know one thing - with the clock running down and I had to choose.
I choose Jordan, Magic and Bird over anyone on the floor today.

Danny J:


--- Quote from: hoglady on June 25, 2012, 06:17:50 pm ---I know one thing - with the clock running down and I had to choose.
I choose Jordan, Magic and Bird over anyone on the floor today.

--- End quote ---
Yep....not even close.

Lakerhog:

I'm just hoping LA can find some pieces to give Kobe 1 or 2 more rings, then find a superstar to replace him. It won't be a Golden age for me unless the boys in purple and gold are winning. ;)

Smithian:


--- Quote from: Hogimus Prime on June 25, 2012, 04:07:36 pm ---
Well Jordan averaged around 30 for his career so with the rules today I think 40 would be possible for Jordan.

--- End quote ---
The rules today which allow for aggressive double teaming and zone defenses?

Not following.

870hogfan:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 08:35:24 pm ---The rules today which allow for aggressive double teaming and zone defenses?

Not following.

--- End quote ---

The rules today that if you barely touch a guy you get called for a foul..

hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: 870hogfan on June 25, 2012, 09:12:52 pm ---The rules today that if you barely touch a guy you get called for a foul..

--- End quote ---
That rule was already in effect for Jordan.  People complained all the time that he got all the calls.  If you remember correctly that game winning shot against utah, he hooked bryon russell to get it off.  Thats just one instance of the Jordan rules.

Smithian:


--- Quote from: 870hogfan on June 25, 2012, 09:12:52 pm ---The rules today that if you barely touch a guy you get called for a foul..

--- End quote ---
Oh really?

If that was true guys like LeBron and Wade would be shooting free throws almost every shot attempt. They receive contact basically every single drive to the basket.

That, and.....


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 07:46:54 am ---That rule was already in effect for Jordan.  People complained all the time that he got all the calls.  If you remember correctly that game winning shot against utah, he hooked bryon russell to get it off.  Thats just one instance of the Jordan rules.

--- End quote ---
Extremely true. Superstars got superstars calls in the 80's and 90's as much as the 2000's.

870hogfan:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 07:46:54 am ---That rule was already in effect for Jordan.  People complained all the time that he got all the calls.  If you remember correctly that game winning shot against utah, he hooked bryon russell to get it off.  Thats just one instance of the Jordan rules.

--- End quote ---

They changed alot of rules because of Jordan..That is why he is the GOAT.

hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: 870hogfan on June 26, 2012, 08:01:36 am ---They changed alot of rules because of Jordan..That is why he is the GOAT.

--- End quote ---

By that theory Wilt Chamberlain would be the GOAT, because no other player affected the rules like him.

870hogfan:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 08:19:36 am ---By that theory Wilt Chamberlain would be the GOAT, because no other player affected the rules like him.

--- End quote ---

This is a good article of Jordan and the new rules.

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: 870hogfan on June 26, 2012, 08:27:52 am ---This is a good article of Jordan and the new rules.

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

--- End quote ---
All of those rules were not changed because of Jordan.  Chamberlain had rules changed because of him.   Goal tending, widening of the lane, not being able to cross the line on free throws.... Just type in rules changed because of Chamberlain.  I'm not saying Chamberlain is the Goat, but no other player affected the rules like him.

nwarazfan:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 02:40:40 pm ---In the 90's they didn't even allow zone defense. I prefer watching a game that isn't tons of 1-on-1 isolation. The game is much more 5-man oriented today than it was 15 years ago.

--- End quote ---

No they didn't.  Teams like the Pistons, Knicks and Bulls didn't need zone defenses. 

It may be a little more now than 10-15 years.  I don't know because I watch very little of it.  Too much "Ginoboli" soccer flopping mixed with officials who want to be a part of the show.  The Jazz and that obnoxious pick and roll they did over and over was excruciating.  As they went out other teams continued it.  It was so refreshing to see what the Kings did when they mixed in the Princeton offense and made it up tempo.  One of the few entertaining bright spots.  But they weren't in a big enough market.  The NBA had to see to it that Kobe followed Jordan with multiple championships.  Kobe was Jordan and Fox was Rodman.  The Lakers sequel to the Bulls Part I and II. 

Now the only NBA I'll watch is when the Hawks play just to watch see how a couple of Hogs are doing.  If I happen to flip the channel by and see Joe and Jannero on I'll watch for a few.  The Hawks offense by the way is pound the basketball till the shot clock gets way down while the other 4 stand.  Horrible. 





--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 07:46:54 am ---That rule was already in effect for Jordan.  People complained all the time that he got all the calls.  If you remember correctly that game winning shot against utah, he hooked bryon russell to get it off.  Thats just one instance of the Jordan rules.

--- End quote ---

The NBA wasn't going to take away iconic moments for a hook or Jordan putting his hand on a defender's hip and pushing him past so he could elevate for a game winning shot.  It would ruin the show.  A Bulls dynasty with MJ as a hero was good for business. 

Hornacek and Stockton were two of the dirtiest players in the NBA.  One of their favorites was to hook a defender's arm with theirs as they dribbled by or just cut through the lane and then flail their arms.  Worked all the time for them.  Officials played right along.  The flopping Spurs began before Jordan retired as well.  The Rick Fox Show started not too long after that.  Vlade vs Fox was like watching Channel 5 Saturday morning Memphis wrasslin for those who grew up in mid south in the 70s and 80s. Officials played along with that too. They were like the stooges you would see in the ring who were part of the act. 

Like I said last week during the Finals discussion, I saw one possession of the Finals.  Lebron pushing Harden when Harden had position for a rebound.  Lebron got him out of the way and made an easy put back and then stared Harden down.  That was enough of the show for me. 

 



hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: nwarazfan on June 26, 2012, 08:53:20 am ---No they didn't.  Teams like the Pistons, Knicks and Bulls didn't need zone defenses. 

It may be a little more now than 10-15 years.  I don't know because I watch very little of it.  Too much "Ginoboli" soccer flopping mixed with officials who want to be a part of the show.  The Jazz and that obnoxious pick and roll they did over and over was excruciating.  As they went out other teams continued it.  It was so refreshing to see what the Kings did when they mixed in the Princeton offense and made it up tempo.  One of the few entertaining bright spots.  But they weren't in a big enough market.  The NBA had to see to it that Kobe followed Jordan with multiple championships.  Kobe was Jordan and Fox was Rodman.  The Lakers sequel to the Bulls Part I and II. 

Now the only NBA I'll watch is when the Hawks play just to watch see how a couple of Hogs are doing.  If I happen to flip the channel by and see Joe and Jannero on I'll watch for a few.  The Hawks offense by the way is pound the basketball till the shot clock gets way down while the other 4 stand.  Horrible. 




The NBA wasn't going to take away iconic moments for a hook or Jordan putting his hand on a defender's hip and pushing him past so he could elevate for a game winning shot.  It would ruin the show.  A Bulls dynasty with MJ as a hero was good for business. 

Hornacek and Stockton were two of the dirtiest players in the NBA.  One of their favorites was to hook a defender's arm with theirs as they dribbled by or just cut through the lane and then flail their arms.  Worked all the time for them.  Officials played right along.  The flopping Spurs began before Jordan retired as well.  The Rick Fox Show started not too long after that.  Vlade vs Fox was like watching Channel 5 Saturday morning Memphis wrasslin for those who grew up in mid south in the 70s and 80s. Officials played along with that too. They were like the stooges you would see in the ring who were part of the act. 

Like I said last week during the Finals discussion, I saw one possession of the Finals.  Lebron pushing Harden when Harden had position for a rebound.  Lebron got him out of the way and made an easy put back and then stared Harden down.  That was enough of the show for me.

--- End quote ---
  Give me a break with this flopping and fouling business.  The Detroit pistons were one of the dirtiest teams to ever play and Rodman flopped as much as anyone ive ever seen his entire career.  If you dont like todays game thats fine, but the level of play is not that inferior to the old nba.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 08:42:28 am ---All of those rules were not changed because of Jordan.  Chamberlain had rules changed because of him.   Goal tending, widening of the lane, not being able to cross the line on free throws.... Just type in rules changed because of Chamberlain.  I'm not saying Chamberlain is the Goat, but no other player affected the rules like him.

--- End quote ---

George Mikan.   Then again, that's basketball antiquity.

nwarazfan:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 09:19:23 am ---  Give me a break with this flopping and fouling business.  The Detroit pistons were one of the dirtiest teams to ever play and Rodman flopped as much as anyone ive ever seen his entire career.  If you dont like todays game thats fine, but the level of play is not that inferior to the old nba.

--- End quote ---

Give me a break.  Obviously you missed where I mentioned Rodman equating him to Rick Fox when Fox was at the end of his career.  I also didn't state the level of play is now inferior.  It may not be.  I spent more time mentioning previous eras than this one.  Somehow you missed that. 

I also wouldn't call the NBA a game.  I would call it more of a show or an act with incredibly skilled performers than a game.  And I understand that many will find that entertaining. 

The Pistons were dirty.  I actually don't see where you think I was disagreeing or arguing with you.  I was having a conversation.  Get some maturity so that you may be able to recognize that in the future. 



hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: nwarazfan on June 26, 2012, 09:29:58 am ---Give me a break.  Obviously you missed where I mentioned Rodman equating him to Rick Fox when Fox was at the end of his career.  I also didn't state the level of play is now inferior.  It may not be.  I spent more time mentioning previous eras than this one.  Somehow you missed that. 

I also wouldn't call the NBA a game.  I would call it more of a show or an act with incredibly skilled performers than a game.  And I understand that many will find that entertaining. 

The Pistons were dirty.  I actually don't see where you think I was disagreeing or arguing with you.  I was having a conversation.  Get some maturity so that you may be able to recognize that in the future.

--- End quote ---
Rodman was just an example to say flopping didnt start in this era.  Pippen was another that flopped to get calls.  All i'm saying is that it gets old hearing people crying about how bad the nba is now compared to the past.  You specifically pointed out a lebron getting away with a push in the back as if that didn't happen in the old nba or any level of baskeball.  The old nba was much more like football because you could maul people and not worry about flagrant 1 or 2.

Cresthog:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 08:35:24 pm ---The rules today which allow for aggressive double teaming and zone defenses?

Not following.

--- End quote ---

Dude you were born in like 1990.

Seriously. Nice frame of reference.

Smithian:


--- Quote from: Cresthog on June 26, 2012, 11:27:01 am ---Dude you were born in like 1990.

Seriously. Nice frame of reference.

--- End quote ---
Don't like my opinion?

Quick google search found this; http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2012-01-17/zone-defense-has-found-its-place-in-the-nba/52657598/1

azhog10:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 25, 2012, 02:40:40 pm ---In the 90's they didn't even allow zone defense. I prefer watching a game that isn't tons of 1-on-1 isolation. The game is much more 5-man oriented today than it was 15 years ago.
--- End quote ---
LMAO!! Absolutely nothing further from the truth.

azhog10:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 07:46:54 am ---That rule was already in effect for Jordan.  People complained all the time that he got all the calls.  If you remember correctly that game winning shot against utah, he hooked bryon russell to get it off.  Thats just one instance of the Jordan rules.

--- End quote ---
Not true at all. If Jordan got the type of and 1 calls that Lebron gets, and if Jordan could have gotten by playing the defense on the weakest player on the floor, He would have never sat the bench for a breather and 40 a game would not be a stretch at all.

hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: azhog10 on June 26, 2012, 02:18:58 pm ---Not true at all. If Jordan got the type of and 1 calls that Lebron gets, and if Jordan could have gotten by playing the defense on the weakest player on the floor, He would have never sat the bench for a breather and 40 a game would not be a stretch at all.

--- End quote ---
I don't know what you were watching but Jordan always got the calls and a ton of and ones. 

Hogimus Prime:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 03:30:10 pm ---I don't know what you were watching but Jordan always got the calls and a ton of and ones. 

--- End quote ---

Jordan did get a lot of call and the and 1's, but the rules have changed to the benefit of the offensive player.  The game isn't near as physical as it used to be. 



Cresthog:


--- Quote from: Smithian on June 26, 2012, 01:17:46 pm ---Don't like my opinion?

Quick google search found this; http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2012-01-17/zone-defense-has-found-its-place-in-the-nba/52657598/1

--- End quote ---

So you regurgitated another person's opinion?

Again, you have zero frame of reference.

I might as well start spouting opinions about nam' and what not since I've read a few Hunter S. Thompson books.

phadedhawg:

To me the "golden ages" was watching the Lakers and Pistons go at it. Magic Johnson, and the showtime offense.  After that I was a fan of all the great Chicago teams. 

I thought that for years but the NBA was a lot more entertaining this year.  The playoffs were exciting.  It wasn't as much 1 on 1 this year.  There was a lot of team basketball.  The game has evolved and moved on.  I know we all the miss the superstars from "ago" but the men out there now are every bit as good.

azhog10:


--- Quote from: hardtimes79 on June 26, 2012, 03:30:10 pm ---I don't know what you were watching but Jordan always got the calls and a ton of and ones.

--- End quote ---
Watch his early stuff. Late 80's and early 90's Jordan definitely would get mauled a few times before he got the call. Come mid to late 90's that started to change, but that's also when you started to see officiating turn into a "cater to the superstar" type of league.

ErieHog:


--- Quote from: azhog10 on June 26, 2012, 06:09:30 pm ---Watch his early stuff. Late 80's and early 90's Jordan definitely would get mauled a few times before he got the call. Come mid to late 90's that started to change, but that's also when you started to see officiating turn into a "cater to the superstar" type of league.

--- End quote ---

Jordan started getting Jordan calls about 1987.     It's amazing the BS he got away with, compared to his peers.

hardtimes79:


--- Quote from: azhog10 on June 26, 2012, 06:09:30 pm ---Watch his early stuff. Late 80's and early 90's Jordan definitely would get mauled a few times before he got the call. Come mid to late 90's that started to change, but that's also when you started to see officiating turn into a "cater to the superstar" type of league.

--- End quote ---
every one got mauled in that era.  MJ still got the benefit on a lot of calls.  Yes the rules are different and to its better to me.  You shouldnt be able to ride somebody all the way to the goal.

Smithian:


--- Quote from: Cresthog on June 26, 2012, 04:35:53 pm ---So you regurgitated another person's opinion?

Again, you have zero frame of reference.

I might as well start spouting opinions about nam' and what not since I've read a few Hunter S. Thompson books.

--- End quote ---
You didn't want my opinion so I found another, more qualified, opinion that acknowledges zone defense has changed the game. Notice Steve Kerr is one of those quoted as saying it adds some more strategy to the game.

I've stated the absolute fact that zone defense has changed the game of basketball. Not sure what there is to argue. You're simply being argumentative.

Hogfaniam:

"Vlade vs Fox was like watching Channel 5 Saturday morning Memphis wrasslin for those who grew up in mid south in the 70s and 80s. Officials played along with that too. They were like the stooges you would see in the ring who were part of the act. "

just an aside, but the refs, mainly calhoun were the script writers and basically the in ring directors.  they were responsible for the flow of the match. 

HiggiePiggy:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7979348

(4. Michael Jordan - 7,327

Michael Jordan is the all time leader in points per game in NBA history and made the 4th most free throws in league history. For his career Jordan made 7,327 free throws in 8,772 attempts for a .835 percentage. During his prime many people used to complain that Michael Jordan got every call by the refs including many phantom fouls. I'd say he did get many calls but he also was hacked like crazy by opponents to keep his scoring down.

Jordan only led the NBA in free throws twice (including 1986-87 when he made 833 for 3rd most in a season all time) and in free throw attempts once. He averaged 488 free throws a year and missed almost 5 year due to his retirements. Had he not retired twice for almost 5 seasons he would be right there with Karl Malone for most free throws all time.)

I would say he went to the line often.   And like the article says if he had not taken 5 years off between his retirements he would probably be #1

azhog10:


--- Quote from: HiggiePiggy on June 27, 2012, 09:54:42 am ---http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7979348

(4. Michael Jordan - 7,327

Michael Jordan is the all time leader in points per game in NBA history and made the 4th most free throws in league history. For his career Jordan made 7,327 free throws in 8,772 attempts for a .835 percentage. During his prime many people used to complain that Michael Jordan got every call by the refs including many phantom fouls. I'd say he did get many calls but he also was hacked like crazy by opponents to keep his scoring down.

Jordan only led the NBA in free throws twice (including 1986-87 when he made 833 for 3rd most in a season all time) and in free throw attempts once. He averaged 488 free throws a year and missed almost 5 year due to his retirements. Had he not retired twice for almost 5 seasons he would be right there with Karl Malone for most free throws all time.)

I would say he went to the line often.   And like the article says if he had not taken 5 years off between his retirements he would probably be #1

--- End quote ---
Where does he rank in attempted free throws? Just curious......

azhog10:


--- Quote from: ErieHog on June 26, 2012, 06:15:04 pm ---Jordan started getting Jordan calls about 1987.     It's amazing the BS he got away with, compared to his peers.

--- End quote ---
Maybe it just stands out to me more now. But I don't recall seeing as many phantom fouls as I do the last few years.....but again you don't tend to remember the past as well as you do the present.

Imminent Rueage:


--- Quote from: azhog10 on June 27, 2012, 10:25:00 am ---Where does he rank in attempted free throws? Just curious......

--- End quote ---

10th all time.

Imminent Rueage:

9th if you don't count ABA stats.

husker71:

Other teams manhandled Jordan for years.  Just think of how many points Jordan could have scored without hand checing.  The Pistons were the biggest ones to implement that strategy.  From Dumars to Rodman and then to  their bigs.  That made is hard to get to the basket.  The Knicks used both Starks and D Walker who were among the best  defenders in the league.  But Jordan was guarded in practice by Pete Myers who could defend him like those others.   I understand Myers and Jordan are still close friends.

beebefootballfan:

Anybody wanting to watch greatness can tune into the NBA channel right now.  Jordans Game 5 with the flu is on.

Fatty McGee:


--- Quote from: Hogimus Prime on June 25, 2012, 03:02:54 pm ---If Bird, Magic And Jordan played in todays NBA they'd average close to 40 something points a game.  The rules today benefit the offense more than they did prior to the mid 90's.

--- End quote ---

To an extent.  However, the defenses are much more complex and focused, in part because a zone is allowed.  They'd still be great, although Bird might struggle more than the other two due to the increased size and athleticism.

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