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Author Topic: Our bigmen for next year.......  (Read 7797 times)

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Razorod

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2010, 06:47:22 am »

Ricardo Ratliffe, Eric Buckner, Luke Cothron, and Majok Majok are four names that I've seen or heard who Arkansas has interest in. Plus, there is always the coaching carousel at the end of the season.
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GuvHog

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2010, 09:33:26 am »

I hear you on that...but with what we are lining up in the next year and beyond with this current staff, I dont see it happening. I guess I am okay with not have a true big man, but not if you are going to have a lot small guards.

At least with the big guards you make it more difficult out on the perimeter to make that pass inside and shot over.

Small Guards?? The 2 that signed with the Hogs in the early period are both over 6'2" tall. That isn't small.
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want2be

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2010, 09:47:45 am »



Remember the improvement Washington had between his Soph and Jr year under Pel's coaching staff........Let's hope we see the same improvement with Johnson along with a recruit like Ratcliff.
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2010, 01:28:03 am »

Small Guards?? The 2 that signed with the Hogs in the early period are both over 6'2" tall. That isn't small.

Guv you have to admit that "most" people  start talking "big guards" at around 6' 4...and thats at the point. But to your point about our 2 commits to go along with what currently have you are talking 7 players on your roster that are 6' 3 or under, next year.  Thats more than half of the roster?!

Take a team like UK for instance, they have only "1" guard under 6'4...just one!

I dont think there is a problem with a couple of small PGs but when you have a back court thats (PG,SG,SF)under 6'3 on the court at the same time against a tall back court,  how do you can expect to defind the perimeter or pressure the entry pass to post. 

I do not think you are going to play a very good man to man against a tall athletic line up...perhaps playing uptempo (48mins) and we cant do that as of yet.





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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2010, 01:47:58 am »

Guv you have to admit that "most" people  start talking "big guards" at around 6' 4...and thats at the point. But to your point about our 2 commits to go along with what currently have you are talking 7 players on your roster that are 6' 3 or under, next year.  Thats more than half of the roster?!

Take a team like UK for instance, they have only "1" guard under 6'4...just one!

I dont think there is a problem with a couple of small PGs but when you have a back court thats (PG,SG,SF)under 6'3 on the court at the same time against a tall back court,  how do you can expect to defind the perimeter or pressure the entry pass to post. 

I do not think you are going to play a very good man to man against a tall athletic line up...perhaps playing uptempo (48mins) and we cant do that as of yet.
I totally agree. I argued with GUVHOG in another thread about this same topic. 6'2" guards are small guards. I dont care if spud webb and mugsy bogues did play in the NBA they did not play on the same team and most teams in the NBA never have or start 2 small guards or place to small guards on the floor at the same time. You cant really get away with that in the sec either. Look at all the national champ teams going back to the mid 80's and you dont see teams starting guards all around the 6'0" mark. That is too small and we will NEVER be comptetitive in the sec or the big dance with a team that starts so many small guards. Even the guards coming off our bench are small. Our biggest guard is only what....6'3"? Recruiting more that are even smaller. Hell...we were starting a 6'4" guy for most of the season playing at the forward spot. That is a joke. We need taller guards with longer wingspans.
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2010, 02:56:05 am »

I totally agree. I argued with GUVHOG in another thread about this same topic. 6'2" guards are small guards. I dont care if spud webb and mugsy bogues did play in the NBA they did not play on the same team and most teams in the NBA never have or start 2 small guards or place to small guards on the floor at the same time. You cant really get away with that in the sec either. Look at all the national champ teams going back to the mid 80's and you dont see teams starting guards all around the 6'0" mark. That is too small and we will NEVER be comptetitive in the sec or the big dance with a team that starts so many small guards. Even the guards coming off our bench are small. Our biggest guard is only what....6'3"? Recruiting more that are even smaller. Hell...we were starting a 6'4" guy for most of the season playing at the forward spot. That is a joke. We need taller guards with longer wingspans.

Absolutely. Some fans spoke of chemistry the other day with Britt in the starting line up...which to me worked because of the opponent. 

IMO some of the chemstry problems we are having is from people are playing positions that they can be most effective.

Im convinced that Washington is playing out of position...play him at the PF. How about Powell and Bryant at the SF? He has the range. Delvon playing C?

Rotnei does pretty good in the open court and makes good decisions with the ball, play him at PG a little more. To Courtney a breather it could cut down the turnovers.

SG Btwn Rotnei, Britt and Farmer we can get should be able to score the ball from here.

Couldnt hurt.
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Imminent Rueage

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2010, 05:22:43 am »

I forgot.

Whose turn is it to say true or false?
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RazorAg

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2010, 09:24:16 am »

He is in Prep School (not sure where) so they will have him next year...if he resigns.

Does anybody know where exactly?

6ft 11 and expected to grow.

It's not a Prep School, it's a Junior College.  Holmes Community College in Mississippi.  Their athletics website is pretty bad; I searched forever for some stats, but couldnt' find any.  It does have game-by-game breakdowns, and it lists the top two or three scorers each write-up.  Borden has not been mentioned.

As someone else mentioned, he is a complete project.  I questioned very much why Pel and staff signed him.  I saw him play 3 times, and he's got a ways to go......at least 2 years, probably 3.

New big man prospect is Giorgui Dieng, currently at Huntington Prep.  6-10 210 pounds.  Moved from Senegal to play this season.  Rivals and Scout had a write-up on him yesterday, and he impressed.  Us, along with Louisville, Virginia, VT and South Florida are recruiting him.  Reports say that he is extremely skilled, unlike most African transplants.  He had a triple-double yesterday in the Flyin' to the Hoop tourney.  Teammate of Arkansas recruit (albeit a soft recruit), Justin Coleman.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/arkansas/basketball/recruiting/player-Gorgui-Dieng-106796
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HogInThaGrove

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2010, 09:34:20 am »

It's not a Prep School, it's a Junior College.  Holmes Community College in Mississippi.  Their athletics website is pretty bad; I searched forever for some stats, but couldnt' find any.  It does have game-by-game breakdowns, and it lists the top two or three scorers each write-up.  Borden has not been mentioned.

As someone else mentioned, he is a complete project.  I questioned very much why Pel and staff signed him.  I saw him play 3 times, and he's got a ways to go......at least 2 years, probably 3.

New big man prospect is Giorgui Dieng, currently at Huntington Prep.  6-10 210 pounds.  Moved from Senegal to play this season.  Rivals and Scout had a write-up on him yesterday, and he impressed.  Us, along with Louisville, Virginia, VT and South Florida are recruiting him.  Reports say that he is extremely skilled, unlike most African transplants.  He had a triple-double yesterday in the Flyin' to the Hoop tourney.  Teammate of Arkansas recruit (albeit a soft recruit), Justin Coleman.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/arkansas/basketball/recruiting/player-Gorgui-Dieng-106796

If this Dieng guy has offers from Kentucky and Louisville, that's good enough for me.  Offer his butt Pel.
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RazorAg

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2010, 09:36:18 am »

Absolutely. Some fans spoke of chemistry the other day with Britt in the starting line up...which to me worked because of the opponent. 

IMO some of the chemstry problems we are having is from people are playing positions that they can be most effective.

Im convinced that Washington is playing out of position...play him at the PF. How about Powell and Bryant at the SF? He has the range. Delvon playing C?

Rotnei does pretty good in the open court and makes good decisions with the ball, play him at PG a little more. To Courtney a breather it could cut down the turnovers.

SG Btwn Rotnei, Britt and Farmer we can get should be able to score the ball from here.

Couldnt hurt.

Gotta disagree on many points.

Powell is most effective on the block, as we've seen the past few games.  He has the potential to develop into a truer combo F, but he's a year or two away b/c of his below average ball-handling, passing and perimeter shooting.  He can get his shot there by next year, but ball handling and passing need a lot of work.

Washington, I agree, is a PF, and I think he's playing out of position, but it's not as a Center.  This offense has no "Center" per se.  It has a high post and low post.  Because of Powell's skills on the low block and Washington's lack of skills on the block, Washington should spend most of his time at the high post.

Glenn Bryant has the same deficiencies as Powell, but they are worse than Powell's.  SF is not the place yet for Bryant.  He is most productive at the high post position, where he can keep ball's alive on the glass and get dunks - what he's best at.  I do think he should see more action.

Delvon, should remain limited in his playing time.  He has looked better since Fortson has come back.  He's been able to get stick-backs and offensive rebounds b/c of Fortson's drives to the rim and the attention he gets.  Johnson is extremely soft, slow, has hands of stone, and has very bad footwork.  He has a pretty good shot from 8-12 feet and he's long, but needs a lot more toughness and strength to get more minutes.  Seems like a good kid, but he was stretch to sign last year.

Britt, disagree totally.  I won't use chemistry as a debate point.  It's his defense, spacing and high bball IQ that makes the difference.  What are we lacking the most on this team?  Defense.  Britt brings it.  He can guard three positions, and he has shown us that he can knock down the three and get rebounds.  I don't know if he's best to start against Florida against Werner, but he needs to be in the starting line-up most games in my opinion.

I do agree that Rot should get some time at the PG position, but I'd rather Nobles spell Fortson.  I hope Nobles develops in practice, gets some minutes and doesn't turn the ball over, hopefully resulting in more minutes.  8-10 minutes is all I want.  I think the team will be better for it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:39:50 am by RazorAg »
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2010, 11:17:50 am »

No problem. That is why they call it a discussion board...

RazorAg actually you make my point. I will say it again alot of it is chemistry...the only person that is really playing his "true position" is Courtney. IMO! We have to many pieces playing the same position.

We dont have a center in "this offense" because we didnt recruit one that could come in and help!

He doesnt have to be a 7footer but he needs to have the skill sets for that position. Right now I think Delvon is as close as come to that. It makes no since to sign JC if they cant come in and help you immediately.

Powell I do believe can play out on the floor and yes he can play the low block. I dont think his ballhandling skills are so bad he cant be effective enough.

Defense, shouldnt be your problem...but we can't do that because of our undersized lineup so we play mostly zone which the taller lineups are going to shoot over as well as pass over the top. We cant defend the perimeter. WE dont move our hands and feet enough to play good sound defense. It should not be limited to Britt. Not to mention we dont rebound that well either.
 
Consequently, the line up that is on the floor the majority of the time is adequate sometimes but not good enough to allow us to play 48mins of BB.

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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2010, 11:24:54 am »

It's not a Prep School, it's a Junior College.  Holmes Community College in Mississippi.  Their athletics website is pretty bad; I searched forever for some stats, but couldnt' find any.  It does have game-by-game breakdowns, and it lists the top two or three scorers each write-up.  Borden has not been mentioned.

As someone else mentioned, he is a complete project.  I questioned very much why Pel and staff signed him.  I saw him play 3 times, and he's got a ways to go......at least 2 years, probably 3. [b/]

New big man prospect is Giorgui Dieng, currently at Huntington Prep.  6-10 210 pounds.  Moved from Senegal to play this season.  Rivals and Scout had a write-up on him yesterday, and he impressed.  Us, along with Louisville, Virginia, VT and South Florida are recruiting him.  Reports say that he is extremely skilled, unlike most African transplants.  He had a triple-double yesterday in the Flyin' to the Hoop tourney.  Teammate of Arkansas recruit (albeit a soft recruit), Justin Coleman.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/arkansas/basketball/recruiting/player-Gorgui-Dieng-106796

Im very well aware he is a project, but usually when you sign projects you have someone else that currently on the team that plays that role. But no one should be surprised most big men take time to develop...he obviously has  alot of work to do.

As far as the new recruit, lets hope we are able to sign him. Better yet perhaps they should offer him first?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 11:26:46 am by HawgnCorona »
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HawgAdvocate

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2010, 01:06:17 pm »

No problem. That is why they call it a discussion board...

RazorAg actually you make my point. I will say it again alot of it is chemistry...the only person that is really playing his "true position" is Courtney. IMO! We have to many pieces playing the same position.

We dont have a center in "this offense" because we didnt recruit one that could come in and help!

He doesnt have to be a 7footer but he needs to have the skill sets for that position. Right now I think Delvon is as close as come to that. It makes no since to sign JC if they cant come in and help you immediately.

Our style of play doesn't work with a lane-clogging big man. Having one would totally negate Fortson's offensive skill-set.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor.

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.
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RazorAg

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2010, 01:23:17 pm »

No problem. That is why they call it a discussion board...

RazorAg actually you make my point. I will say it again alot of it is chemistry...the only person that is really playing his "true position" is Courtney. IMO! We have to many pieces playing the same position.

We dont have a center in "this offense" because we didnt recruit one that could come in and help!

He doesnt have to be a 7footer but he needs to have the skill sets for that position. Right now I think Delvon is as close as come to that. It makes no since to sign JC if they cant come in and help you immediately.

Powell I do believe can play out on the floor and yes he can play the low block. I dont think his ballhandling skills are so bad he cant be effective enough.

Defense, shouldnt be your problem...but we can't do that because of our undersized lineup so we play mostly zone which the taller lineups are going to shoot over as well as pass over the top. We cant defend the perimeter. WE dont move our hands and feet enough to play good sound defense. It should not be limited to Britt. Not to mention we dont rebound that well either.
 
Consequently, the line up that is on the floor the majority of the time is adequate sometimes but not good enough to allow us to play 48mins of BB.



HawgnCorona, it depends on how you define position when you say Courtney is only playing a "true" position.

It doesn't really have a lot of relevance, but I'd say Rotnei is playing a pure 2, a Shooting Guard, most of the game.

As for why we don't have a true Center, you may not ever see one with Pel.  Pel believes in a particular offensive system that requires very mobile big guys.  Remember who he learned under, and take into account that the Spread Pick-and-Roll, the primary offense we run, came from Donovan.  On Florida national championship teams, who was there true Center?


I agree with you that it makes no sense to sign a JC that can't help you right away.  But, you can't force it if the JC doesn't have the necessary skills and athleticism.  Have you watched every game?  Have you watched any open practices?  That's where we're at with Delvon Johnson.  The kid averaged 6.8 ppg and 5 rpg as a 2nd year JC player.  Bottom line, we missed on our post prospects and signed Delvon b/c he was the best our coaching staff thought they could sign at the time, which was late in the recruiting season.  We got no better than what we had with Andre Clark and Brandon Moore.

We'll have to agree to disagree with Powell and his ballhandling.

No offense, but if you think we play mostly zone, I'm not sure that you've watched every game.  We go zone primarily in three cases.  On a dead ball inbounds pass, when we zone press (which is very token), and when we have a lead late in the game.  Watch the next few games closely, and that will be verified.  We've played zone no more than 25% of the time.

Now, I agree that defense shouldn't be our problem, but it most certainly is.  Our size does affect us.  Our lateral quickness does affect us.  It should not be a problem b/c defense is mostly an attitude, a mindset.  We do not seem tough enough unless things are going well.  Then our intensity raises.  Therefore, we have to play players that play sound defense to give us our best chance.  That's the #1 reason Britt is in the line-up.

Lastly, I think the NCAA doesn't allow us to play 48 minutes, not our inadequate line-up :)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:27:18 pm by RazorAg »
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2010, 02:12:00 pm »

Our style of play doesn't work with a lane-clogging big man. Having one would totally negate Fortson's offensive skill-set.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor.

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.
Our style of play doesnt work with a alane clogging big man? I wonder how oliver miller did it? What style of play do we play anyways? I am not sure what you call it but it sure isnt uptempo especially compared to mizzou or kentucky.
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heathtits

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2010, 02:12:46 pm »

Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.

Nice spin. "When he signed".

Why not just say how big he is? He's 6-10, 245, and was that size by all accounts when they won it all.

And they had Noah who is 6-11, 235. AND Corey Brewer who was 6-9.

Don't sit here and act like our team without Washington is going to be built anywhere close to the back to back title winning Florida teams. They weren't "cloggers" by any means but they were still huge and very athletic.

We need someone 6-9+(or Ratliffe) who can play well on the blocks badly and you know it. Powell is not going to be able to hold it down by himself, and Johnson may become "decent" next year, but he' has not shown that much to me in his oppurtunities with Washington sitting out hurt and what not.

Now I don't think the team will be "bad" without an impact 6-9+ guy, but we could be a WHOLE lot better with one.
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heathtits

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2010, 02:15:37 pm »

Our style of play doesnt work with a alane clogging big man? I wonder how oliver miller did it? What style of play do we play anyways? I am not sure what you call it but it sure isnt uptempo especially compared to mizzou or kentucky.

Yeah I agree. Until Fortson isn't jacking 15+ shots a game, with 5+ TOs, we have no "style" of play. We have Fortson, and the rest of the team.
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2010, 02:16:51 pm »

Nice spin. "When he signed".

Why not just say how big he is? He's 6-10, 245, and was that size by all accounts when they won it all.

And they had Noah who is 6-11, 235. AND Corey Brewer who was 6-9.

Don't sit here and act like our team without Washington is going to be built anywhere close to the back to back title winning Florida teams. They weren't "cloggers" by any means but they were still huge and very athletic.

We need someone 6-9+(or Ratliffe) who can play well on the blocks badly and you know it. Powell is not going to be able to hold it down by himself, and Johnson may become "decent" next year, but he' has not shown that much to me in his oppurtunities with Washington sitting out hurt and what not.

Now I don't think the team will be "bad" without an impact 6-9+ guy, but we could be a WHOLE lot better with one.
Exactly. When was the last time a national champ team won the title without some kind of big man being a part of a team? Who is going to be our big man? marshawn? He is a small forward. Delvon? If we are going to be a tourny team next year we need some kind of muscle down low in the worst way.
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2010, 02:17:50 pm »

Yeah I agree. Until Fortson isn't jacking 15+ shots a game, with 5+ TOs, we have no "style" of play. We have Fortson, and the rest of the team.
I totally agree. Fortson wants to play uptempo while the rest of the team wants to stand around and watch. Fortson would thrive under anersons system.
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HawgAdvocate

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2010, 02:29:25 pm »

Our style of play doesnt work with a alane clogging big man? I wonder how oliver miller did it? What style of play do we play anyways? I am not sure what you call it but it sure isnt uptempo especially compared to mizzou or kentucky.

Oliver Miller?!?!?!? 1992 called, you missed the boat.

Did Lee Mayberry make a living out of driving, drawing defenders, and making the kickout? No.

Miller could also hit the 18 footer. He was a more-skilled version of Dwight Stewart. Miller was better with the ball in his hands. He may have been the best passing big man in Arkansas history. He could also play much better lowpost defense than Stewart could.

Nolan and Pelphrey don't share the same offensive system. Wow..I can't believe what you posted.
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HawgAdvocate

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2010, 02:35:15 pm »

Nice spin. "When he signed".

Why not just say how big he is? He's 6-10, 245, and was that size by all accounts when they won it all.

And they had Noah who is 6-11, 235. AND Corey Brewer who was 6-9.

Don't sit here and act like our team without Washington is going to be built anywhere close to the back to back title winning Florida teams. They weren't "cloggers" by any means but they were still huge and very athletic.

We need someone 6-9+(or Ratliffe) who can play well on the blocks badly and you know it. Powell is not going to be able to hold it down by himself, and Johnson may become "decent" next year, but he' has not shown that much to me in his oppurtunities with Washington sitting out hurt and what not.

Now I don't think the team will be "bad" without an impact 6-9+ guy, but we could be a WHOLE lot better with one.

Spin my a$$.

It's fact. Noah is the same size as Washington, minus an inch. Donnell Harvey, David Lee, Alex Tyus, Noah, Horfford..all athletic, high energy posts that are NOT true centers. Look it up.

Corey Brewer is 6'9". Guess how big Waithe is. How tall was Jason Henry? 6'7", right?? You catching on now??

Where did I say we were going to be built like the back to back title teams at Florida?? Donovan still has/had Parsons, Lee, Tyus, Bonner, Harvey, and quite a few other post players not named Noah and Horfford in his tenure at Florida. Even today, Donovan isn't competing for a national title, but he's recruiting the same style of post player. Fact!

Where did I say we wouldn't be better with Ratliffe? Where did I say we don't need him? Where did I say he wouldn't fit in?? How do you make this stuff up?!? LMAO!!!

The sooner you quit trying to be a smarta$$, nitpicking each of my posts, and start reading what is being said, you might make sense of it all.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:38:51 pm by HawgAdvocate »
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HawgAdvocate

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2010, 02:37:22 pm »

I totally agree. Fortson wants to play uptempo while the rest of the team wants to stand around and watch. Fortson would thrive under anersons system.

LOL ok...what exactly is Anderson's system?
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2010, 02:48:11 pm »

LOL ok...what exactly is Anderson's system?

There isnt one.  They just run the floor

Missouri doesnt have a true big man either from what ive seen
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2010, 02:49:28 pm »

HA

Believe me Im well aware that Pel doesnt want the True center that is slow and clogs the middle.
However, to use your example you can find a  PF that has the skills of a "true center" to facilitate the style you wish to play.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor. 

I dont think this is a good example of the point you are trying to make? It seems to work fine here in L.A. Try DFish and Shaq? How about Mo Williams and Shaq? They do have the 2nd best record in the league and Shaq is playing his best ball since Miami. Oh wait we wont talk about him and DWade. But thats another level...

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

You do realize we have set a run in the half court, alot. You would hope he has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go and get a rebound, ya think?

Dont forget the primary responsibilty of the point guard is to distribute the ball not to drive lane and then look for his shot. Big man or not...

So the question isnt what  "I" think? Its what they were thinking when he was signed.

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.

HA, I know he is a protege' of Billy D. nor am I talking about major minutes to a true center (see my comment of above regarding why was he signed)...however, you do need to adapt your coaching "style" to fit the players that you have. At dosnt matter how tall Horford was, he had the skills to player the PF/C position. Thats the difference btwn he and Delvon.

That said dont give me this crap about whether you are for or against the Pel...cause I dont care either way.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:53:52 pm by HawgnCorona »
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2010, 02:56:52 pm »

HA

Believe me Im well aware that Pel doesnt want the True center that is slow and clogs the middle.
However, to use your example you can find a  PF that has the skills of a "true center" to facilitate the style you wish to play.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor. 

I dont think this is a good example of the point you are trying to make? It seems to work fine here in L.A. Try DFish and Shaq? How about Mo Williams and Shaq? They do have the 2nd best record in the league and Shaq is playing his best ball since Miami. Oh wait we wont talk about him and DWade. But thats another level...

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

You do realize we have set a run in the half court, alot. You would hope he has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go and get a rebound, ya think?

Dont forget the primary responsibilty of the point guard is to distribute the ball not to drive lane and then look for his shot. Big man or not...

So the question isnt what  "I" think? Its what they were thinking when he was signed.

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.

HA, I know he is a protege' of Billy D. nor am I talking about major minutes to a true center (see my comment of above regarding why was he signed)...however, you do need to adapt your coaching "style" to fit the players that you have. At dosnt matter how tall Horford was, he had the skills to player the PF/C position. Thats the difference btwn he and Delvon.

That said dont give me this crap about whether you are for or against the Pel...cause I dont care either way.


Comparing Phoenix to LA is stupid.  THey play 2 different styles of ball.  The Suns couldnt win with Shaq because they want to run up and down the floor every play...getting a rebound and pushing and trying to get a 2 on 1 like situation.  there were numerous times that Shaq never actually got back on offense because he couldnt

the only team in the NBA that comes remotely close to that style of play is the Knicks.   all others  have at least one super star player that they want to handle the ball in halfcourt sets and have 4 other guys to help them out.   the Suns and Knicks want to divide the scoring amoung several players
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2010, 03:01:39 pm »

HawgnCorona, it depends on how you define position when you say Courtney is only playing a "true" position.

It doesn't really have a lot of relevance, but I'd say Rotnei is playing a pure 2, a Shooting Guard, most of the game.

As for why we don't have a true Center, you may not ever see one with Pel.  Pel believes in a particular offensive system that requires very mobile big guys.  Remember who he learned under, and take into account that the Spread Pick-and-Roll, the primary offense we run, came from Donovan.  On Florida national championship teams, who was there true Center?


I agree with you that it makes no sense to sign a JC that can't help you right away.  But, you can't force it if the JC doesn't have the necessary skills and athleticism.  Have you watched every game?  Have you watched any open practices?  That's where we're at with Delvon Johnson.  The kid averaged 6.8 ppg and 5 rpg as a 2nd year JC player.  Bottom line, we missed on our post prospects and signed Delvon b/c he was the best our coaching staff thought they could sign at the time, which was late in the recruiting season.  We got no better than what we had with Andre Clark and Brandon Moore.

We'll have to agree to disagree with Powell and his ballhandling.

No offense, but if you think we play mostly zone, I'm not sure that you've watched every game.  We go zone primarily in three cases.  On a dead ball inbounds pass, when we zone press (which is very token), and when we have a lead late in the game.  Watch the next few games closely, and that will be verified.  We've played zone no more than 25% of the time.

Now, I agree that defense shouldn't be our problem, but it most certainly is.  Our size does affect us.  Our lateral quickness does affect us.  It should not be a problem b/c defense is mostly an attitude, a mindset.  We do not seem tough enough unless things are going well.  Then our intensity raises.  Therefore, we have to play players that play sound defense to give us our best chance.  That's the #1 reason Britt is in the line-up.

Lastly, I think the NCAA doesn't allow us to play 48 minutes, not our inadequate line-up :)

Ditto on the 48min, goodness we have trouble with alotted 40 min...hahahaa.

Now allow me to clarify what I mean about the Center position. We I used the term Im merely speaking of PF who is able play the position in Pels style of offense. That can be any big man that is athletic and mobile, but is able blockout, rebound, defend the paint shot block, and score if needed.

I not necessarily talking about the "traditional center", used in a slow down half court offense.

But yes, we can agree to disagree...
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2010, 03:03:18 pm »

Comparing Phoenix to LA is stupid.  THey play 2 different styles of ball.  The Suns couldnt win with Shaq because they want to run up and down the floor every play...getting a rebound and pushing and trying to get a 2 on 1 like situation.  there were numerous times that Shaq never actually got back on offense because he couldnt

the only team in the NBA that comes remotely close to that style of play is the Knicks.   all others  have at least one super star player that they want to handle the ball in halfcourt sets and have 4 other guys to help them out.   the Suns and Knicks want to divide the scoring amoung several players


Are you saying I am comparing the two?
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2010, 03:21:58 pm »

HA

Believe me Im well aware that Pel doesnt want the True center that is slow and clogs the middle.
However, to use your example you can find a  PF that has the skills of a "true center" to facilitate the style you wish to play.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor. 

I dont think this is a good example of the point you are trying to make? It seems to work fine here in L.A. Try DFish and Shaq? How about Mo Williams and Shaq? They do have the 2nd best record in the league and Shaq is playing his best ball since Miami. Oh wait we wont talk about him and DWade. But thats another level...

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

You do realize we have set a run in the half court, alot. You would hope he has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go and get a rebound, ya think?

Dont forget the primary responsibilty of the point guard is to distribute the ball not to drive lane and then look for his shot. Big man or not...

So the question isnt what  "I" think? Its what they were thinking when he was signed.

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.

HA, I know he is a protege' of Billy D. nor am I talking about major minutes to a true center (see my comment of above regarding why was he signed)...however, you do need to adapt your coaching "style" to fit the players that you have. At dosnt matter how tall Horford was, he had the skills to player the PF/C position. Thats the difference btwn he and Delvon.

That said dont give me this crap about whether you are for or against the Pel...cause I dont care either way.


Phil Jackson's (Tex Winter, to be honest) triangle offense and Pel's spread pick-and-roll are two totally different creatures. The triangle relies heavily on 2 to 3 players seeing a combined 90% or so of the scoring distribution opportunities. In Jackson's case (at LA), the PG and PF aren't the facilitators of the offense. Kobe, Rice/George/Ariza/Odom, & Shaq/Bynum/Gasol are where the offense runs through in Jackson's triangle. The point is, Fisher didn't spearhead the offense in LA.

Fisher has made a career of kickout jumpers from Jackson's low-post player and/or Kobe. He's not a top 3 scoring option in that offense, nor has he ever been a big assist guy there. The same goes for John Paxson and Steve Kerr at Chicago. Recall Pippin being the point-forward in his days there, much like Odom has been many times under Jackson at LA?

Phoenix used something similiar to the spread pick-and-roll with Nash, Marion, and Amare (two posts playing bigger than they really are and suceeding with agility and speed). This offense is facilitiated by the PG (Fortson/Calathes), who creates with the rock in his hands off of movement.

Mo Williams and D-Fish are totally different players than Fortson and Nash are. Cleveland's offense is run through LeBron, not Mo.

The point is, the Nash/Shaq comparison was a very good one in this instance. The only reason they got Shaq was to try and get by the Spurs in the playoffs, who they had lost to in the two previous seasons because Amare couldn't hold Duncan on the low block for an entire series.

I don't know what you're trying to say in this sentence, specifically the first setence. Is it misworded?:

"You do realize we have set a run in the half court, alot. You would hope he has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go and get a rebound, ya think?

Obviously Delvon is depth, at best, and not much more than that. RazorAg was dead on in his assesment of him.

"Dont forget the primary responsibilty of the point guard is to distribute the ball not to drive lane and then look for his shot. Big man or not...

Fortson is one of our best scoring options. He will create offense as opposing defenses start to move towards him in the lane to keep him from creating. He gets many, many assists, and he does his job well. He has too many TOs as well, but that's something we have to deal with for the time being. But to say he shouldn't look for his own shot isn't fair or ideal either. If he's not looking to score, opposing defenses will have a much easier time stopping him, Rotnei, and everyone else that benefits from Courtney's skills.

I don't believe I said anything to you about being for or against Pel in my reponse to your post. I only respond to what's written. Keep your "crap" to yourself, and so shall I.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2010, 03:26:04 pm »


Are you saying I am comparing the two?

Well, you did when you said: "I dont think this is a good example of the point you are trying to make? It seems to work fine here in L.A. Try DFish and Shaq? How about Mo Williams and Shaq? They do have the 2nd best record in the league and Shaq is playing his best ball since Miami. Oh wait we wont talk about him and DWade. But thats another level...
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2010, 03:53:44 pm »

HA, stop please we arent talking  about the Lakers, nor there triangle offense. I know what they do, okay?

I was simply stating to you that Shaq and Nash wasnt a good example because the Suns "style" of play was not suited for Shaq. However, I offered you Lakers, Heat and the Cavs as examples in which the Shaq flourished as a true center. Nuff said on that.

But clarify the statement I made.

That is, You do realize to set up and our half court offense, alot. You would hope that (Delvon) has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go get a rebound, ya think?

Depth is fine but at least when he is in the game one would expect some sort of contribution other than blocking shots? I wasnt disputing his assessment of Delvon, the discussion with another poster was about using a "taller line up"...

There is no argument about Courtney being our best scoring option. However, you aren't going to win many games that way. You are also inferring that said he shouldnt look for his shot. That's not what I said, I did say his first responsibility was to  distribute the ball, right. Surely he can drive the lane and set up his teamates for the easy basket. Thats why Mikes scoring has gone up a bit...so dribble penetration is good for the PG but score is not the first option. But do we take that absolutely.

Im just letting you know I dont want to hear it...and when I give "crap" you will know it. Otherwise I dont having a discussion of we see out on the court.
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2010, 04:02:14 pm »

LOL ok...what exactly is Anderson's system?
40 minutes of hell. Up and down, trapping defense, turn you over and head the other way. You really do hate anderson dont you? Did anderson and nolan get after you more than once for not emptying the trash while you worked at the BAC?
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2010, 04:07:16 pm »

HA, stop please we arent talking  about the Lakers, nor there triangle offense. I know what they do, okay?

I was simply stating to you that Shaq and Nash wasnt a good example because the Suns "style" of play was not suited for Shaq. However, I offered you Lakers, Heat and the Cavs as examples in which the Shaq flourished as a true center. Nuff said on that.

But clarify the statement I made.

That is, You do realize to set up and our half court offense, alot. You would hope that (Delvon) has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go get a rebound, ya think?

Depth is fine but at least when he is in the game one would expect some sort of contribution other than blocking shots? I wasnt disputing his assessment of Delvon, the discussion with another poster was about using a "taller line up"...

There is no argument about Courtney being our best scoring option. However, you aren't going to win many games that way. You are also inferring that said he shouldnt look for his shot. That's not what I said, I did say his first responsibility was to  distribute the ball, right. Surely he can drive the lane and set up his teamates for the easy basket. Thats why Mikes scoring has gone up a bit...so dribble penetration is good for the PG but score is not the first option. But do we take that absolutely.

Im just letting you know I dont want to hear it...and when I give "crap" you will know it. Otherwise I dont having a discussion of we see out on the court.

but youre still not understanding our point  Arkansas plays a system like Phoenix that doesnt require a true big man to succeed.   just like the Florida National Title teams...   

The Lakers and Cavs play systems that truly do need a big man...  seeing as how the Lakers couldnt win a title until they got one
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2010, 04:09:06 pm »

Oliver Miller?!?!?!? 1992 called, you missed the boat.

Did Lee Mayberry make a living out of driving, drawing defenders, and making the kickout? No.

Miller could also hit the 18 footer. He was a more-skilled version of Dwight Stewart. Miller was better with the ball in his hands. He may have been the best passing big man in Arkansas history. He could also play much better lowpost defense than Stewart could.

Nolan and Pelphrey don't share the same offensive system. Wow..I can't believe what you posted.
Really? Oliver miller was a jump shooter and you compare him to stewart? LOL...please. You are truly clueless. Oliver miller played on the low block, blocking shots, making long full court passes, boxed out and rebounded. Mayberry did penetrate and kick ALOT of the time to our 3 point shooters. What do you consider mayberry? A pure jump shooter? LOL. I also understand that pelphrey doesnt share EXACTLY the same system as nolan did but pelphrey does or did state that he wanted to play a uptempo game. I have yet to see us play uptempo this year at all.

PS, I see you have no answer for how an uptempo team needs a big man. Your answer to my post is "1992 called and you missed the boat". Do you not even have a decent rebuttle?
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2010, 04:12:22 pm »

but youre still not understanding our point  Arkansas plays a system like Phoenix that doesnt require a true big man to succeed.   just like the Florida National Title teams...   

The Lakers and Cavs play systems that truly do need a big man...  seeing as how the Lakers couldnt win a title until they got one
What are you smoking? Name a national champ did that did not have a big man or a big team over all. Name an NBA team that has won it all without a big man. GO ahead. Dont do or type anything else until you can find me one.
Florida had a HUGE team when they won the title. I am holding back what I really want to say to you because you are really living in some made up fantasy world. You call noah, horford small? Both of those guys are bigger than anybody we currently have on our team.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2010, 04:15:16 pm »

HA, stop please we arent talking  about the Lakers, nor there triangle offense. I know what they do, okay?

I was simply stating to you that Shaq and Nash wasnt a good example because the Suns "style" of play was not suited for Shaq. However, I offered you Lakers, Heat and the Cavs as examples in which the Shaq flourished as a true center. Nuff said on that.

You didn't understand the difference in offensive systems if you can't fathom why our offense doesn't work with a lane-clogging, slow footed big man playing major minutes. You didn't understand the example I used of why Nash/Shaq weren't a good match for Phoenix's offense (similiar to what WE do), yet you seem to think it worked out all right for Fisher and Mo Williams (LeBron), who play in totally different systems.

It's actually a pretty good discussion on the perception of PGs, and how often people show they have no idea how the position can be played in different systems. There's a great reason why the Lakers never traded for Jason Kidd when they had the chance years ago. The triangle offense is it. 

But clarify the statement I made.

That is, You do realize to set up and our half court offense, alot. You would hope that (Delvon) has enough skills to be a presence. Otherwise he can help you. But to your point he can go get a rebound, ya think?

Depth is fine but at least when he is in the game one would expect some sort of contribution other than blocking shots? I wasnt disputing his assessment of Delvon, the discussion with another poster was about using a "taller line up"...

He's a poor man's Steven Hill. If not for Hill's presense on defense, he'd be Delvon Johnson. With all the size Heath had in his time here, it's still funny to me that Beverley was easily the leading rebounder in Heath's final season as coach. Size doesn't always equal rebounds. Derek Hood was almost always the smallest post player on the floor when he played, but he was relentless and is still one of the best rebounders in Razorback history. We've got two great rebounders now with Powell and Washington. Obviously we want someone to replace the production that will leave with Washington. We're working on that with Ratliffe. Since we're also on the new top tier recruit Dieng, yet haven't offered him (to my knowledge), it could be a great sign that we still feel very good about our chances with Ricardo.

There is no argument about Courtney being our best scoring option. However, you aren't going to win many games that way. You are also inferring that said he shouldnt look for his shot. That's not what I said, I did say his first responsibility was to  distribute the ball, right. Surely he can drive the lane and set up his teamates for the easy basket. Thats why Mikes scoring has gone up a bit...so dribble penetration is good for the PG but score is not the first option. But do we take that absolutely.

Fortson has to take what the defense gives him. If Washington isn't in the game, or if he's screening at the high post, he isn't going to be able to help as easily. If Rotnei's man won't come of of him, Fort has to make a play. Fort is not much different than LeBron, DWade, A.I., or any other star player who has the offense run through him. His listed position matters little. He's going to take shots, he's going to create, and he's going to have TOs. The object of the offense we run is for Fort to make decisions with the ball based of of how the defense reacts (as well as his teammates, who are not always successful in creating space from their defender as they should be).

Im just letting you know I dont want to hear it...and when I give "crap" you will know it. Otherwise I dont having a discussion of we see out on the court.

Good, me neither. I think the first sentence of your post was the "crap" you speak of. You brought up Fisher and his time in the triangle with Shaq, not I.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2010, 04:17:25 pm »

but youre still not understanding our point  Arkansas plays a system like Phoenix that doesnt require a true big man to succeed.   just like the Florida National Title teams...   

The Lakers and Cavs play systems that truly do need a big man...  seeing as how the Lakers couldnt win a title until they got one
Floridas team went 6'6", 6'7", 6'9", 6'9", 6'10" and 6'11". LOL....you are totally right. No big men on that team at all.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2010, 04:19:16 pm »

You didn't understand the difference in offensive systems if you can't fathom why our offense doesn't work with a lane-clogging, slow footed big man playing major minutes. You didn't understand the example I used of why Nash/Shaq weren't a good match for Phoenix's offense (similiar to what WE do), yet you seem to think it worked out all right for Fisher and Mo Williams (LeBron), who play in totally different systems.

It's actually a pretty good discussion on the perception of PGs, and how often people show they have no idea how the position can be played in different systems. There's a great reason why the Lakers never traded for Jason Kidd when they had the chance years ago. The triangle offense is it. 

He's a poor man's Steven Hill. If not for Hill's presense on defense, he'd be Delvon Johnson. With all the size Heath had in his time here, it's still funny to me that Beverley was easily the leading rebounder in Heath's final season as coach. Size doesn't always equal rebounds. Derek Hood was almost always the smallest post player on the floor when he played, but he was relentless and is still one of the best rebounders in Razorback history. We've got two great rebounders now with Powell and Washington. Obviously we want someone to replace the production that will leave with Washington. We're working on that with Ratliffe. Since we're also on the new top tier recruit Dieng, yet haven't offered him (to my knowledge), it could be a great sign that we still feel very good about our chances with Ricardo.

Fortson has to take what the defense gives him. If Washington isn't in the game, or if he's screening at the high post, he isn't going to be able to help as easily. If Rotnei's man won't come of of him, Fort has to make a play. Fort is not much different than LeBron, DWade, A.I., or any other star player who has the offense run through him. His listed position matters little. He's going to take shots, he's going to create, and he's going to have TOs. The object of the offense we run is for Fort to make decisions with the ball based of of how the defense reacts (as well as his teammates, who are not always successful in creating space from their defender as they should be).

Good, me neither. I think the first sentence of your post was the "crap" you speak of. You brought up Fisher and his time in the triangle with Shaq, not I.
Why do you consider ALL big men "lane clogging and slow footed"? Cousins and orten look pretty nimble. What about dexter pittman? Slow footed? Not all bigmen are slow footed like jason jennings.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2010, 04:19:52 pm »

40 minutes of hell. Up and down, trapping defense, turn you over and head the other way. You really do hate anderson dont you? Did anderson and nolan get after you more than once for not emptying the trash while you worked at the BAC?

Offense son, offense. Tell us about the offense. The offense wasn't labeled "40 Minutes of Hell." The defense was.

Ahhh, I see I've cornered you and you have to get childish on me. Tsk, tsk.

I think highly of Mike Anderson. If you've ever taken the time to understand why I don't think he'll come here, you'd understand that I respect his legacy too much for some of you impatient fanatics to just toss away when he doesn't deliver what you expect. Short term answer, long term question.

Now then, about Mike's offense...please tell us how Fortson would thrive. And since you don't know, "uptempo" simply means rushing offensive posessions. Thought I'd throw you a bone so you didn't make any more mistakes and say the wrong thing.
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2010, 04:25:11 pm »

Offense son, offense. Tell us about the offense. The offense wasn't labeled "40 Minutes of Hell." The defense was.

Ahhh, I see I've cornered you and you have to get childish on me. Tsk, tsk.

I think highly of Mike Anderson. If you've ever taken the time to understand why I don't think he'll come here, you'd understand that I respect his legacy too much for some of you impatient fanatics to just toss away when he doesn't deliver what you expect. Short term answer, long term question.

Now then, about Mike's offense...please tell us how Fortson would thrive. And since you don't know, "uptempo" simply means rushing offensive posessions. Thought I'd throw you a bone so you didn't make any more mistakes and say the wrong thing.
You piss me off because you are clueless. NOLANS OFFENSE WAS CREATING TURNOVERS ON DEFENSE AND DRIBBLE PENETRATION ON OFFENSE. It was a motion offense the same as pelphrey runs. It was predicated on running cutters to the basket. Pelphrey wants to basically run the same thing but hasnt. He hasnt because he hasnt recruited the players capable of running that type of offense which is based on turning teams over and forcing teams to take quick shots. We were a run a gun team who thrived on fast break points. If you dont know that and you need me to explain it to you then you really didnt watch nolan. What did nolan and anderson do to you because you really feel contempt towards both of them.
PS, uptempto doesnt simply mean "rushing" on offense. Uptempo style is based on turning teams over and forcing them into taking quick shots. It is trapping defense that plays full court. Pelphrey hasnt played a trapping full court defense since early last year.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 04:29:08 pm by headhawg7 »
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HawgAdvocate

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2010, 04:29:39 pm »

Really? Oliver miller was a jump shooter and you compare him to stewart? LOL...please. You are truly clueless. Oliver miller played on the low block, blocking shots, making long full court passes, boxed out and rebounded. Mayberry did penetrate and kick ALOT of the time to our 3 point shooters. What do you consider mayberry? A pure jump shooter? LOL. I also understand that pelphrey doesnt share EXACTLY the same system as nolan did but pelphrey does or did state that he wanted to play a uptempo game. I have yet to see us play uptempo this year at all.

PS, I see you have no answer for how an uptempo team needs a big man. Your answer to my post is "1992 called and you missed the boat". Do you not even have a decent rebuttle?

How old are you? Do you even remember how Todd Day scored 40+ on LSU against Shaq? Miller scored on the low block, but he could also hit the 18 footer pretty well. He was a high post in a low posts body. Not surprised you don't know this...

Mayberry and Fortson are polar opposites with their offensive games.

You don't even know how to describe Nolan's offense that had Oliver MIller in it. You don't even recall Oliver's skill set. Where did I ever say an uptempo team didn't need a big man? Where did I say Oliver was soley a jump shooter??

The laughable fact is that you choose to think "uptempo" is a specific offense, when it reality it's just the speed of how a certain offense (triangle, motion, spread, flex, dribble drive, etc) is run. Comparing Oliver's work under Nolan to what Pel/Donovan do is apples to oranges. That was the point in reminding you that it's no longer 1992.
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2010, 04:32:36 pm »

but youre still not understanding our point  Arkansas plays a system like Phoenix that doesnt require a true big man to succeed.   just like the Florida National Title teams...  

The Lakers and Cavs play systems that truly do need a big man...  seeing as how the Lakers couldnt win a title until they got one

Ah, and tell me just how is it that working out for us? If you want to play like Phx then you need to have players like such. You do not have those type of players 6'9 Grant Hill, a 6'10 Amare Stoudomire, 7'0, 6'11 Channing Frye, even Steve Nash is 6'3 so it is a moot point to talk about who you want to play like, fact of the matter is we cant!

You are trying to make the point about not have a big man and comparing the HOGS style of play to Phx. They have a big man, Chief?! But they are "athletic and mobile" thats the difference.

The only resemblance to Phx is they way we play defense.


 

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2010, 04:37:53 pm »

You piss me off because you are clueless. NOLANS OFFENSE WAS CREATING TURNOVERS ON DEFENSE AND DRIBBLE PENETRATION ON OFFENSE. It was a motion offense the same as pelphrey runs. It was predicated on running cutters to the basket. Pelphrey wants to basically run the same thing but hasnt. He hasnt because he hasnt recruited the players capable of running that type of offense which is based on turning teams over and forcing teams to take quick shots. We were a run a gun team who thrived on fast break points. If you dont know that and you need me to explain it to you then you really didnt watch nolan. What did nolan and anderson do to you because you really feel contempt towards both of them.
PS, uptempto doesnt simply mean "rushing" on offense. Uptempo style is based on turning teams over and forcing them into taking quick shots. It is trapping defense that plays full court. Pelphrey hasnt played a trapping full court defense since early last year.

LOL ok Einstein...so Pel's offense is what Nolan ran?? Wow. Nolan's offense was "creating TOs on defense"...well, heaven help us for the 25+ possessions per game we didn't score off of a TO.

Dribble penetration? What, so Mayberry and Day just dribbled around, passed it back and forth, and dribbled in and threw something up each posession? That's genius!!! ROFL!!

So, in your "expert" opinion, an uptempo offense can't happen unless you play FCP on defense? So Syracuse, who plays a zone primarily, can not play uptempo basketball then if they don't run and trap?? Wow, you should write a book on this stuff.

You can force the tempo on either end of the court, while doing the opposite on the other side if you desire. You don't grasp this concept though. You can run an uptempo offensive system and rest players on defense through a zone (compared to M2M). Comprende??
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2010, 04:42:08 pm »

How old are you? Do you even remember how Todd Day scored 40+ on LSU against Shaq? Miller scored on the low block, but he could also hit the 18 footer pretty well. He was a high post in a low posts body. Not surprised you don't know this...

Mayberry and Fortson are polar opposites with their offensive games.

You don't even know how to describe Nolan's offense that had Oliver MIller in it. You don't even recall Oliver's skill set. Where did I ever say an uptempo team didn't need a big man? Where did I say Oliver was soley a jump shooter??

The laughable fact is that you choose to think "uptempo" is a specific offense, when it reality it's just the speed of how a certain offense (triangle, motion, spread, flex, dribble drive, etc) is run. Comparing Oliver's work under Nolan to what Pel/Donovan do is apples to oranges. That was the point in reminding you that it's no longer 1992.
You said uptempo teams do not require "lane clogging big men". I am sorry I had to quote you but that is exactly what you said. LOL..your argument is that he shot one 18 foot jump shot thus he is an outside shooter like dwight stewart but with a better skill set. That is exactly what you said. Comparing dwight stewart to miller is crazy.
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2010, 04:43:28 pm »

You didn't understand the difference in offensive systems if you can't fathom why our offense doesn't work with a lane-clogging, slow footed big man playing major minutes. You didn't understand the example I used of why Nash/Shaq weren't a good match for Phoenix's offense (similiar to what WE do), yet you seem to think it worked out all right for Fisher and Mo Williams (LeBron), who play in totally different systems.

It's actually a pretty good discussion on the perception of PGs, and how often people show they have no idea how the position can be played in different systems. There's a great reason why the Lakers never traded for Jason Kidd when they had the chance years ago. The triangle offense is it. 

He's a poor man's Steven Hill. If not for Hill's presense on defense, he'd be Delvon Johnson. With all the size Heath had in his time here, it's still funny to me that Beverley was easily the leading rebounder in Heath's final season as coach. Size doesn't always equal rebounds. Derek Hood was almost always the smallest post player on the floor when he played, but he was relentless and is still one of the best rebounders in Razorback history. We've got two great rebounders now with Powell and Washington. Obviously we want someone to replace the production that will leave with Washington. We're working on that with Ratliffe. Since we're also on the new top tier recruit Dieng, yet haven't offered him (to my knowledge), it could be a great sign that we still feel very good about our chances with Ricardo.

Fortson has to take what the defense gives him. If Washington isn't in the game, or if he's screening at the high post, he isn't going to be able to help as easily. If Rotnei's man won't come of of him, Fort has to make a play. Fort is not much different than LeBron, DWade, A.I., or any other star player who has the offense run through him. His listed position matters little. He's going to take shots, he's going to create, and he's going to have TOs. The object of the offense we run is for Fort to make decisions with the ball based of of how the defense reacts (as well as his teammates, who are not always successful in creating space from their defender as they should be).

Good, me neither. I think the first sentence of your post was the "crap" you speak of. You brought up Fisher and his time in the triangle with Shaq, not I.

Quite the contrary, I very much aware Pel wants an uptemp style of play...so please dont try setting yourself up as if you are some kind of authority.

You sir, brought the NBA not me...what you seem to miss out own in all verbage is we dont have the type of players to fit the type of system/style we want utilize. So back up and stop trying to make it seem as though we run anything we have seen before.

Pels style is much different than Nolans, the problem is we dont have the type players to play to that style. And you know it, no one is trying run down the program just simply stating what the problems are.

To sit hear and say you cant have an athlete big man you are seriously mistaken...

We are going to be effective play uptempo style until we get some height, any fool knows that. So sit and spinning all day, dude but I know better. 
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2010, 04:44:49 pm »

Our style of play doesn't work with a lane-clogging big man. Having one would totally negate Fortson's offensive skill-set.

Think Steve Nash & Shaq when he was in Phoenix. That stifled their offense and slowed their transition game with Shaq on the floor.

What are these skills you wish to see from a true 5 that only Delvon comes close to? A shot-blocker? Anything else?

The model to look at, when gauging what Pel is trying to do, is Florida. Remember, Donovan hasn't really ever given major minutes to a true 5. Al Horford was only 6'8" 235lbs when he signed.
LOL...did someone else steal you name for this post? You say one thing in one post and another in another post. Quit trying to respond to me because you are making my blood pressure rise. You are clueless and try to pass yourself off as somebody who knows what they are talking about when clearly you do not.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 04:47:20 pm by headhawg7 »
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2010, 04:48:50 pm »

Ah, and tell me just how is it that working out for us? If you want to play like Phx then you need to have players like such. You do not have those type of players 6'9 Grant Hill, a 6'10 Amare Stoudomire, 7'0, 6'11 Channing Frye, even Steve Nash is 6'3 so it is a moot point to talk about who you want to play like, fact of the matter is we cant!

You are trying to make the point about not have a big man and comparing the HOGS style of play to Phx. They have a big man, Chief?! But they are "athletic and mobile" thats the difference.

The only resemblance to Phx is they way we play defense.


No one said we play exactly like Phoenix. It's also not very fair to compare NBA size to collegiate size. The fact we're bringing in a 6'9" wing in Waithe (and tried once with 6'7" Henry) does prove we're adding size. Fortson and Rotnei are stud talents, and we're lucky to have them. Rotnei is undersized for a usual SG, but in college he can get away with it the same way AJ Abrans, Juan Dixon, and so many others have over the years.

The Hogs have two big men in Powell and Washington. Comparing them to Phoenix, back before Gentry was named coach, they played small ball against the towers known as Shaq, Duncan, Yao, etc, and they were very good at it. Weren't they the best team in the league (during the regular season) during one of Nash's two MVP years? Nash is an awful defender, so his size means little in his conversation.

You're forcing an argument that doesn't exist.
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2010, 04:50:13 pm »

Still waiting for your answer to "OUR style" doesnt work with a bigman. How come nolan did it with oliver? Quit trying to disect uptempo styles of ball from one another because uptemp means teams that like to get up and down the floor quickly and nothing more. Tell me again how bigmen are not required when playing uptempo.
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HawgnCorona

Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2010, 04:51:48 pm »

...
Offense son, offense. Tell us about the offense. The offense wasn't labeled "40 Minutes of Hell." The defense was.

Ahhh, I see I've cornered you and you have to get childish on me. Tsk, tsk.

I think highly of Mike Anderson. If you've ever taken the time to understand why I don't think he'll come here, you'd understand that I respect his legacy too much for some of you impatient fanatics to just toss away when he doesn't deliver what you expect. Short term answer, long term question.

Now then, about Mike's offense...please tell us how Fortson would thrive. And since you don't know, "uptempo" simply means rushing offensive posessions. Thought I'd throw you a bone so you didn't make any more mistakes and say the wrong thing.

But thats also where they scored points, they used there defense to make offense.
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Danny J

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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2010, 04:51:52 pm »

No one said we play exactly like Phoenix. It's also not very fair to compare NBA size to collegiate size. The fact we're bringing in a 6'9" wing in Waithe (and tried once with 6'7" Henry) does prove we're adding size. Fortson and Rotnei are stud talents, and we're lucky to have them. Rotnei is undersized for a usual SG, but in college he can get away with it the same way AJ Abrans, Juan Dixon, and so many others have over the years.

The Hogs have two big men in Powell and Washington. Comparing them to Phoenix, back before Gentry was named coach, they played small ball against the towers known as Shaq, Duncan, Yao, etc, and they were very good at it. Weren't they the best team in the league (during the regular season) during one of Nash's two MVP years? Nash is an awful defender, so his size means little in his conversation.

You're forcing an argument that doesn't exist.
Pot...meet kettle!
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Re: Our bigmen for next year.......
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2010, 04:52:25 pm »

You said uptempo teams do not require "lane clogging big men". I am sorry I had to quote you but that is exactly what you said. LOL..your argument is that he shot one 18 foot jump shot thus he is an outside shooter like dwight stewart but with a better skill set. That is exactly what you said. Comparing dwight stewart to miller is crazy.

Our "style of play" (spread pick & roll) does not work well with a lane-clogging big man.

I did NOT say an "uptempo" team. Read more, post less.

Where did I say Miller shot one 18 footer and that he was soley a an outside shooter? Prove me wrong. Use some facts. Discuss Stewart's skills. ou talk the talk, well, walk the walk.

You must be a child. There's no exscuse to be this absurd.
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