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Author Topic: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program  (Read 1899 times)

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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2019, 04:52:37 pm »

So some historical irrelevant comparisons are not fair but other are?

Sutton coached ONE season in the modern era of basketball. But his tenure is relevant? I don't think so.

And please don't try to say I am diminishing his accomplishments. He was very accomplished in that era. But it doesn't translate to today's college basketball in any way, shape, or form.

I hate to bring this up, but the belief of most coaches was that a good basketball team required a white kid on the floor to keep the black players organized. Not saying Eddie did this. That was a widely held view. It is also one of the things that made Nolan controversial early in his career.

We had black basketball players before Eddie ever started coaching us. Some really good players. The first one was Thomas Johnson in 1967. Also Almer Lee, Martin Terry, Dean Tolson. Martin or Dean hold six of the top ten single game highest points scored in Hog history. Were there some coaches around the country that wanted a white kid on the floor in those days sure BUT it was not a widely held view and a lot of teams had all five players on the floor being black back then soon after Western Texas won it all. You have to go farther back than Eddie to make your statements completely correct. Also if you donít think Eddie in his prime couldnít coach really good teams and players today you're nuts.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 05:28:10 pm by Inhogswetrust »
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jabberjawls

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2019, 04:57:18 pm »

Are you really comparing 2013,14,16 and 17 basketball seasons to baseball?  Those seasons were no where near as successful as our baseball program has been.  What ďsport talkĒ considered us as one of the best in the country?   Wow
You must not have been around back then because we WERE considered very elite then.
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Deerhunter

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2019, 05:04:29 pm »

You must not have been around back then because we WERE considered very elite then.

Do what?  We were elite on basketball those years?  Nonsense!
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jabberjawls

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2019, 05:08:25 pm »

Do what?  We were elite on basketball those years?  Nonsense!
Oops sorry.  My bad.  I thought the discussion was the 90's basketball teams.
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FineAsSwine

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2019, 05:09:45 pm »

Weíll fire this coach, as we did the last, if he doesnít meet the expectations. It wonít take 8+ years to do it either.

8+ years huh?  I guess Mike gets year nine. You heard it from th8e ricepig himself. Now, on to other business. ;)

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PintailKiller

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2019, 05:17:06 pm »

The expectation for our basketball program should be higher than the current output, but this is comparing apples to oranges.  The difference in baseball and basketball is extrordingly different. There are 297 Division 1 baseball schools and 351 Division 1 basketball schools. Obviously facilities and geography play a huge advantage in building a successful baseball program, unlike basketball, so DVH is already at a huge recruiting advantage over Mike. School budgets/revenue produced by the programs also factor in, and frankly a lot of cares just don't prioritize baseball because it doen't make them money.

Then you factor in how basketball is a sport, where it only takes 5 players instead of 9 playing well to win a game. It is a sport much more prone to a team getting upset, and in baseball that likely requires a midmajor having a pitcher capable of twirling a shutout.

Not trying to build in excuses for Mike, but it is much harder to build a consistent winning program due to all these factors. College baseball also doesn't have the turnover nationwide of college basketball, so teams can look very different from one season to the next.

DVH is a great coach, one of the best in college baseball, and I'm glad to have him.  That being said, we're also lucky he played for us and this is his dream job. We tried that approach again with Mike, and it hasn't yielded the same results unfortunately.

Really?   Ever mind that baseball has fewer schollies than basketball.  A program with the prestige of Arkansas has won a Natty and should be able to be in the NCAA tournament 9 out of 10 years, especially in the SEC.  The turnarounds at UT and OM show that it can be done quickly.  Can you imagine a football coach at Arkansas being retained after going to bowls in 3 of 8 years???
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Deerhunter

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2019, 05:17:46 pm »

Oops sorry.  My bad.  I thought the discussion was the 90's basketball teams.

Lol I was wondering what in the world you were talking about .
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Hollywood_HOGan45

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2019, 05:19:50 pm »

That's what I want.

When the season begins, Razorback baseball fans know that under DVH we have about a 95% to 100% chance of being in the NCAA Tournament (15 of his 16 years). About a third of the time, we're going to make a run to Omaha (five times in 16 seasons). We're going to pretty consistently be thought of as one of the Top 10-20 programs in the nation. Even if we have a down year, as we did when we went 26-29 in 2016, no one is particularly stressed about it; we know that type of season is an outlier, and that overall we have a great program. In my mind, that is about all a fan can reasonably expect; to be in the conversation when those who follow the sport talk about the best programs in the country.

That's what I expect out of our basketball program.   

We had those type of seasons with basketball in 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017. Good seasons, all of them.

That's four out of eight. Six of eight, seven of eight, I'm good with.

Exactly .

The baseball program is in really really good hands.

Solid play all around.   You know if its a big game, the team will be locked in and focused.
Sometimes we may not be as good as our opponent but most of the time we are.

I think what we are seeing in baseball is 15 years of building. We had some really good teams under DVH previously but not like what we have seen previously.

ricepig

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2019, 05:20:34 pm »

8+ years huh?  I guess Mike gets year nine. You heard it from th8e ricepig himself. Now, on to other business. ;)



He will if he is willing to fire two assistants, right or wrong.
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TebowHater

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2019, 05:31:53 pm »

We had those type of seasons with basketball in 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017. Good seasons, all of them.

That's four out of eight. Six of eight, seven of eight, I'm good with.

This has probably been said somewhere, but I would argue we have never had one of those seasons, including the years you list. We've never made it past the round of 32. That is like never even making a super regional in 8 years, much less a CWS or national title game.

If Mike had even made the Elite 8 (CWS) in 1-2 of his 8 years, I think many would be happier. The fact he hasn't even made it to the equivalent of a super regional in 8 years deserves firing, no questions asked.

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WilsonHog

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2019, 05:33:55 pm »

He will if he is willing to fire two assistants, right or wrong.

What Mike ought to hope for is that TJ can get a job like Mercer or Morgan State, and that Watkins decides to retire. Otherwise, he's gonna have to get some blood on his hands to stay.
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FineAsSwine

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2019, 05:37:11 pm »

He will if he is willing to fire two assistants, right or wrong.

Well there you have it. Has it been specified which two assistants have to go or is it just a combination of any two? If it's the latter then that just seems like a pretext to force CMA out but making it look like his choice to leave by giving him an ultimatum that they knew he wouldn't accept.


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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2019, 05:44:01 pm »

Then make the best players on the basketball team stay at least 3 years. If you think losing your top talent doesn't affect the likelihood of getting the results you want here then you might want to take a closer look at our history.

Even in our glory days we couldn't replace talent every two years.

If that is the problem then do what Barnes did at Tennessee  and recruit players that are not going to go pro right away and actually develop the players instead of losing them every year to either the draft or transferring. That is the problem under with Anderson. Last year he had a great team return and had a disappointing season with a loss to a higher seed in the first round of the NCAA tournament. 

I would not be surprised to see Tennessee be in the tournament almost every year from here on out with Barnes as the head coach. The reason is because he develops players. In 4 years at Tennessee he has now been to 2 NCAA tournaments. He was in the Tournament every year just about when he was the head coach of Texas. 

So Anderson needs to get some new staff members that can develop the players and he needs to be able to find ways of keeping them on campus for 3 or even 4 years.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2019, 05:46:33 pm »

If that is the problem then do what Barnes did at Tennessee  and recruit players that are not going to go pro right away and actually develop the players instead of losing them every year to either the draft or transferring. That is the problem under with Anderson. Last year he had a great team return and had a disappointing season with a loss to a higher seed in the first round of the NCAA tournament. 

I would not be surprised to see Tennessee be in the tournament almost every year from here on out with Barnes as the head coach. The reason is because he develops players. In 4 years at Tennessee he has now been to 2 NCAA tournaments. He was in the Tournament every year just about when he was the head coach of Texas. 

So Anderson needs to get some new staff members that can develop the players and he needs to be able to find ways of keeping them on campus for 3 or even 4 years.

LOL

Barnes got lucky with Williams in that regard. Just next season, Tenn is going to fall back to the pack. Just watch.

Yep. The object of recruiting is to make sure the guys you sign aren't capable of going pro. That sounds like a great idea.
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ricepig

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2019, 05:54:24 pm »

Well there you have it. Has it been specified which two assistants have to go or is it just a combination of any two? If it's the latter then that just seems like a pretext to force CMA out but making it look like his choice to leave by giving him an ultimatum that they knew he wouldn't accept.



I donít know the answer to that. I donít think itís the correct thing to do, I feel itís too late to matter now. If HY decides not to make a change, I would hope Mike gets to run his program as he wishes, and has done.
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hobhog

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2019, 05:55:24 pm »

He will if he is willing to fire two assistants, right or wrong.

That would be a definite wrong and show we are just whistling past the graveyard.

No assistant coach worth hiring will come to a lame duck coach. And it wouldn't stop the impending dumpster fire if MA is allowed to stay.

ShadowHawg

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2019, 05:56:34 pm »

We had black basketball players before Eddie ever started coaching us. Some really good players. The first one was Thomas Johnson in 1967. Also Almer Lee, Martin Terry, Dean Tolson. Martin or Dean hold six of the top ten single game highest points scored in Hog history. Were there some coaches around the country that wanted a white kid on the floor in those days sure BUT it was not a widely held view and a lot of teams had all five players on the floor being black back then soon after Western Texas won it all. You have to go farther back than Eddie to make your statements completely correct. Also if you donít think Eddie in his prime couldnít coach really good teams and players today you're nuts.

Can you even read?

I didn't say anything about not having any black players at the University of Arkansas. Read it again.

Secondly, Western Kentucky did win it all with all black players. And it was a big deal. It takes time for the ideas of the old to matriculate out of circulation though. It didn't stop with their victory.

Again, didn't accuse Eddie of it. But it was a widely held view even into the 80s that teams needed a white guy on the floor at all times.

I guess you don't believe that black qb's weren't considered to not be able to pass either by coaches and experts until recently?

I guess we aren't allowed to talk about the harsh realities of the past to illustrate the changes from then to now.

Again, its about comparing eras, not coaches. Get over the Eddie stuff. No comparison was made or conclusions drawn about his abilities.
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WilsonHog

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2019, 05:57:23 pm »

Well there you have it. Has it been specified which two assistants have to go or is it just a combination of any two? If it's the latter then that just seems like a pretext to force CMA out but making it look like his choice to leave by giving him an ultimatum that they knew he wouldn't accept.

Put it this way...I believe Scotty is safe.

This is not a strategy I endorse, nor do I think it is one Mike will follow.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2019, 06:00:47 pm »

He will if he is willing to fire two assistants, right or wrong.

I bet if he stays, he won't fire anybody. Your guy may claim otherwise, but there is no appearance of agreement about any of that yet. Just the desire of one camp.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2019, 06:36:23 pm »

Can you even read?

I didn't say anything about not having any black players at the University of Arkansas. Read it again.

Secondly, Western Kentucky did win it all with all black players. And it was a big deal. It takes time for the ideas of the old to matriculate out of circulation though. It didn't stop with their victory.

Again, didn't accuse Eddie of it. But it was a widely held view even into the 80s that teams needed a white guy on the floor at all times.

I guess you don't believe that black qb's weren't considered to not be able to pass either by coaches and experts until recently?

I guess we aren't allowed to talk about the harsh realities of the past to illustrate the changes from then to now.

Again, its about comparing eras, not coaches. Get over the Eddie stuff. No comparison was made or conclusions drawn about his abilities.

Western Texas won their title in 1966. Things started to change fairly quickly after that. We had our first Black player in 1967. You mentioned the ďmodernĒ era and Eddie. Black players were the main reason Eddie was so successful. What makes your think that it was into the 80ís that it was a widely held view that a team had to have a white guy on the floor. Iíd agree it was into the 70ís some but by the 80ís it wasnít. In reading your post it can easily lead one to think you didnít think Eddie would be just as accomplished in his prime today as back then. Also by the time Nolan got here I didnít know anyone that thought anything bad about having an all black team on the floor. I donít have to get over any aeddie stuff. His accomplishments in basketball are documented. Nolanís accomplishments are documented. Iím glad both were or coach. I was glad when Mike was hired. Not glad of that last one now.  You want to talk about eras fine. Mikes fastest forty era is not the same as Nolanís and not the same as Van Eman either. Heck Van Eman wanted to play faster than both of them. To bad as he didnít want to pay defense like Nolan or Eddie. The problem with you saying not to compare coaches but talk about different eras is different coaches coached in different eras. It is impossible to talk about eras without talking about coaches because the coaches are what made the era what it was.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2019, 06:56:30 pm »

LOL

Barnes got lucky with Williams in that regard. Just next season, Tenn is going to fall back to the pack. Just watch.

Yep. The object of recruiting is to make sure the guys you sign aren't capable of going pro. That sounds like a great idea.

Never said not being capable of going pro. Just being able to find players that will most likely stay for 3 or even 4 years. 

I guess Barnes also got lucky at Texas? Where he missed the tournament 1 time in 17 years there.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2019, 07:07:26 pm »

Never said not being capable of going pro. Just being able to find players that will most likely stay for 3 or even 4 years. 

I guess Barnes also got lucky at Texas? Where he missed the tournament 1 time in 17 years there.

He had Kevin Durant and was unlucky and lost in the second game. It simply proves anything can happen in the dance. A top four seed doesnít lose often in the first game but it does happen obviously more in the second. Not sure they had enough weapons to win it all that year though but they should have at least made the elite eight.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2019, 07:15:09 pm »

He had Kevin Durant and was unlucky and lost in the second game. It simply proves anything can happen in the dance. A top four seed doesnít lose often in the first game but it does happen obviously more in the second. Not sure they had enough weapons to win it all that year though but they should have at least made the elite eight.

There are a lot of times when a team should have went deeper in the tournament, but that is the life of the NCAA tournament. I want to find a coach that could at least give us the chance to compete in it every year or at least 90% of the time.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2019, 08:53:55 pm »

Western Texas won their title in 1966. Things started to change fairly quickly after that. We had our first Black player in 1967. You mentioned the ďmodernĒ era and Eddie. Black players were the main reason Eddie was so successful. What makes your think that it was into the 80ís that it was a widely held view that a team had to have a white guy on the floor. Iíd agree it was into the 70ís some but by the 80ís it wasnít. In reading your post it can easily lead one to think you didnít think Eddie would be just as accomplished in his prime today as back then. Also by the time Nolan got here I didnít know anyone that thought anything bad about having an all black team on the floor. I donít have to get over any aeddie stuff. His accomplishments in basketball are documented. Nolanís accomplishments are documented. Iím glad both were or coach. I was glad when Mike was hired. Not glad of that last one now.  You want to talk about eras fine. Mikes fastest forty era is not the same as Nolanís and not the same as Van Eman either. Heck Van Eman wanted to play faster than both of them. To bad as he didnít want to pay defense like Nolan or Eddie. The problem with you saying not to compare coaches but talk about different eras is different coaches coached in different eras. It is impossible to talk about eras without talking about coaches because the coaches are what made the era what it was.

When we won our Natty it was called the smart kids versus the athletes. That was racist code. That was the 90s.

You are naive about race and the 80's I was recruited during the 80's and one of the coaches said it to me. Straight up. No dancing. A few others hinted at it by showing me a team picture and saying he needed more guys like me. Another did the exact opposite.

You can compare coaches all you want. But if you believe that today's standards should be made from eras that have nothing in common eith today's circumstances then you either don't know your history well or lack understanding of today's circumstances.

Sutton's era and today are so different as to make any comparison of the two moot.
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razorsharp94

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2019, 10:36:20 pm »

That's what I want.

When the season begins, Razorback baseball fans know that under DVH we have about a 95% to 100% chance of being in the NCAA Tournament (15 of his 16 years). About a third of the time, we're going to make a run to Omaha (five times in 16 seasons). We're going to pretty consistently be thought of as one of the Top 10-20 programs in the nation. Even if we have a down year, as we did when we went 26-29 in 2016, no one is particularly stressed about it; we know that type of season is an outlier, and that overall we have a great program. In my mind, that is about all a fan can reasonably expect; to be in the conversation when those who follow the sport talk about the best programs in the country.

That's what I expect out of our basketball program.   

We had those type of seasons with basketball in 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017. Good seasons, all of them.

That's four out of eight. Six of eight, seven of eight, I'm good with.

Its a good thing you dont expect much.
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raz4back

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2019, 12:57:35 am »

One of the things that get me about the whole baseball thing is that we aren't quite elite but Hog fans believe we are.

Their have been 6 national championships won by 3 different schools in the SEC since DVH. Many more NC game appearances as well.

We have shared the regular season SEC title ONCE in DVHs tenure. We have NEVER won the SEC tournament under DVH.

We are viewed as having the best baseball facilities in the country.

Do you guys even know that we are one of the few baseball programs in the country that is financially self sufficient? That is a huge advantage. That's why the NCAA limits baseball scholarships like they do. Because most schools are at a sever disadvantage.

Show me where basketball and football have those built in advantages and I could agree with you. Also, because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't want the same level of winning.

I am just pointing out it isn't easy and it isn't simple anymore to make that happen in college basketball.

Heís also dealing with the built in disadvantage of cold weather. How many teams with similar climates are playing at the level Arkansas is?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:35:16 am by raz4back »
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razorback1829

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Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2019, 02:00:56 am »

Arkansas is a Nike school and have actually been in a few premiere tournaments or neutral site games. The Armed Forces Classic earliest this year, the tournament in Portland not that long ago, and then I think Anderson's first season they played A&M in Dallas as part of a double header with Baylor-Gonzaga.

If you're trying to hint at something else shoe related, I am not going there. I'm not accusing every single school of cheating.

LOL this is incredibly naive my friend.
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yraciv

Re: Baseball Results in our Basketball Program
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2019, 03:30:17 pm »

Really?   Ever mind that baseball has fewer schollies than basketball.  A program with the prestige of Arkansas has won a Natty and should be able to be in the NCAA tournament 9 out of 10 years, especially in the SEC.  The turnarounds at UT and OM show that it can be done quickly.  Can you imagine a football coach at Arkansas being retained after going to bowls in 3 of 8 years???

Even more apples to oranges is comparing it to football where something like 60% of D1 teams get in.  Of course you'd should be bowling every year.The number of scholarships you have makes absolutely no difference, becuase all D1 schoools in each sport are the same ther. 

I don't know what a reasonable expectation for the basketball program is, but it's certainly not DVH success. I think we should be a consistent NCAA team, competing for SEC championships every 3 or 4 years, and having Sweet 16 talent squads that are capable of making a run in the tournament. Thats not too much to ask, and that is not near DVH success.
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