RB Sports Discussion > SEC Sports

Would you trade places

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Piglet:

with LSU?  The Tigers have won the conference title, they may win the conference tournament, and they could go deep in the big dance.  But their coach got caught cheating to bring in the players who got them in this position.  Whatever they accomplish this year will be at least tainted, maybe taken away from them. 

I have seen people post they wish Anderson would at least try to get these type players. In their opinion once you win big you can sustain the recruiting.  Even if the games and trophies have to be forfeited, nothing will change.  Everyone will still know who actually won the title.

They also argue that many of the successful coaches today are doing the same thing.  They are just very good at covering their tracks.

These are good arguments that I cannot really disagree with.  It comes down to what you really want - success regardless of how you did it or a program that plays by the rules but can't get better than average.  People have always cheated to try and get ahead whether it be in business or sports.  Some will continue to cheat no matter how strict the rules are.  Human nature will never change.  Don't expect this latest exposure to clean up college basketball.

So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules? 

Dudeman:

Success means nothing to me if it's accomplished by cheating. I know many people are fine with it but I hate it. I would rather remain irrelevant and be honest.

The_Iceman:

I'd trade spots with Tennessee.

mykidsdad:


--- Quote from: The_Iceman on March 11, 2019, 07:02:41 pm ---I'd trade spots with Tennessee.

--- End quote ---

Tennessee was in our spot 2 years ago.

Hatleyville454:

Here's the thing. THIS season will feel tainted for them, but the following seasons will not. This recent winning by them, coupled with the great players, #1 pick in Ben Simmons, Prime time TV slots for their games, etc. will ensure that kids will continue to want to play for them after all of this. The NCAA can't take that away.

The only person this debacle really hurts is Will Wade and possibly Jevonta Smart. The fans and the next coach will be whistling dixie the next few years as they continue their success.

Short of the death penalty, the NCAA can do nothing to hinder the continued success of programs that cheat in this way. So outside of it being a moral and ethical dilemma, it makes a lot of sense to take these chances to prop up your program. And that goes for all sports.

My conscious wouldn't allow me to cheat, and I don't condone it, but I can understand someone who would.

checkraiser88:

So if LSU wins the national championship this season would y’all trade spots?

hamARchy in the USA:


--- Quote from: Piglet on March 11, 2019, 06:54:59 pm ---So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules? 

--- End quote ---

It's not either/or.  I'd hire a great coach who was committed to winning straight up.

HeyHogs:

No

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: mykidsdad on March 11, 2019, 07:07:36 pm ---Tennessee was in our spot 2 years ago.

--- End quote ---

In Year 2 of Rick Barnes tenure. We’re in Year 8. Guess you’re saying hang on for Year 10.

BannerMountainMan:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 07:31:44 pm ---In Year 2 of Rick Barnes tenure. We’re in Year 8. Guess you’re saying hang on for Year 10.

--- End quote ---
He got them all to stay, is the biggest reason.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: BannerMountainMan on March 11, 2019, 07:32:53 pm ---He got them all to stay, is the biggest reason.

--- End quote ---

Part of managing a program. Another reason why Barnes is a truly good coach.

Hawg Red:

To answer the OP, hell yes I’d trade places with LSU. I would not lose a bit of sleep over my program having a chance to make a real NCAAT run that might be “vacated” because a player or few got an apartment paid for for their parents and a few grand while their university and the entity stripping their accomplishment makes far more off their talents. I’m happy for those LSU players who may have been paid leveraging their talents to better their personal situation, however temporary it may be.

Razors85:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 07:38:53 pm ---Part of managing a program. Another reason why Barnes is a truly good coach.

--- End quote ---

Kevin Durant and Aldridge say hi.

And to address the other side of the arguments... No players should not get paid. It is not just a free tuition AND degree that they get but everything that goes with it from tutoring to nutrition etc... I as a successful person who still has student loans is envious... Just saying

(notOM)Rebel123:


--- Quote from: Piglet on March 11, 2019, 06:54:59 pm ---with LSU?  The Tigers have won the conference title, they may win the conference tournament, and they could go deep in the big dance.  But their coach got caught cheating to bring in the players who got them in this position.  Whatever they accomplish this year will be at least tainted, maybe taken away from them. 

I have seen people post they wish Anderson would at least try to get these type players. In their opinion once you win big you can sustain the recruiting.  Even if the games and trophies have to be forfeited, nothing will change.  Everyone will still know who actually won the title.

They also argue that many of the successful coaches today are doing the same thing.  They are just very good at covering their tracks.

These are good arguments that I cannot really disagree with.  It comes down to what you really want - success regardless of how you did it or a program that plays by the rules but can't get better than average.  People have always cheated to try and get ahead whether it be in business or sports.  Some will continue to cheat no matter how strict the rules are.  Human nature will never change.  Don't expect this latest exposure to clean up college basketball.

So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules? 

--- End quote ---

Number One? Hmmm.,,

FineAsSwine:

if I knew we had cheated to win it would ring hollow. Kinda like cheating at solitaire, it doesn’t feel the same when you “win” and anybody watching you cheat to win at solitaire would laugh at your celebration.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 08:07:25 pm ---Kevin Durant and Aldridge say hi.

And to address the other side of the arguments... No players should not get paid. It is not just a free tuition AND degree that they get but everything that goes with it from tutoring to nutrition etc... I as a successful person who still has student loans is envious... Just saying

--- End quote ---

Kevin Durant and LaMarcus Aldridge play for Tennessee?

The other part of your post is misguided and lacking perspective.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: FineAsSwine on March 11, 2019, 08:17:06 pm ---if I knew we had cheated to win it would ring hollow. Kinda like cheating at solitaire, it doesn’t feel the same when you “win” and anybody watching you cheat to win at solitaire would laugh at your celebration.

--- End quote ---

But this Hogville, where everyone but Arkansas cheats. So if everyone else is doing it, is it really cheating?

hamARchy in the USA:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 08:20:23 pm ---But this Hogville, where everyone but Arkansas cheats. So if everyone else is doing it, is it really cheating?

--- End quote ---

Of course, we don't really know that MA hasn't tried to cheat.  It may be that he can't even buy a player.

Razors85:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 08:19:13 pm ---Kevin Durant and LaMarcus Aldridge play for Tennessee?

The other part of your post is misguided and lacking perspective.

--- End quote ---

Please give me perspective

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: hamARchy in the USA on March 11, 2019, 08:31:48 pm ---Of course, we don't really know that MA hasn't tried to cheat.  It may be that he can't even buy a player.

--- End quote ---

I truly believe he runs a clean program. I just think there are more of them out there than the majority of Hogville does. Anytime we lose a recruit now, even before they’ve even committed to a school sometimes, here comes the auto excuse of “can’t compete with cheaters.”

(notOM)Rebel123:


--- Quote from: hamARchy in the USA on March 11, 2019, 08:31:48 pm ---Of course, we don't really know that MA hasn't tried to cheat.  It may be that he can't even buy a player.

--- End quote ---

Exactly...we may just not be very good at it.

PonderinHog:


--- Quote from: (notOM)Rebel123 on March 11, 2019, 08:42:15 pm ---Exactly...we may just not be very good at it.

--- End quote ---
We're good at the not getting caught part, so far, lately...

(notOM)Rebel123:


--- Quote from: PonderinHog on March 11, 2019, 08:44:59 pm ---We're good at the not getting caught part, so far, lately...

--- End quote ---

....true.

hamARchy in the USA:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 08:42:03 pm ---I truly believe he runs a clean program. I just think there are more of them out there than the majority of Hogville does. Anytime we lose a recruit now, even before they’ve even committed to a school sometimes, here comes the auto excuse of “can’t compete with cheaters.”

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I agree with you.  Why would he risk getting caught cheating and thus losing his job ?  He's been making millions of dollars without any demands placed on him.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 08:39:46 pm ---Please give me perspective

--- End quote ---

Let’s start with the disingenuous intentions by which many of these players are recruited to UNIVERSITIES. The term “student-athlete” puts the student part first. Yet how many players on the Duke basketball would qualify for that school if they had no basketball talent. Vanderbilt? Hell, even the U of A. How many of the kids on our time would apply and get accepted to the university if they weren’t passed through due to athletics? Many of the athletes that occupy D1 basketball rosters come from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds and environments were structure is not present. They aren’t academically mature as a result of this. So how do they truly capitalize on this wonderful college education that is supposed to be the equivalent of what the school makes of their program?

These kids are be USED. The schools know it. They want them to play basketball. They don’t want them for academics. They want them to come help them win basketball games, sell tickets and merchandise, sign record-breaking TV contracts, etc. Their reward? A scholarship that many of them aren’t equipped to truly appreciate or take real advantage of because they’ve been passed through and babied since they were old enough to show some could capitalize on their talent. Are these schools offering basketball degrees? No. How many people go to school to get a degree for something that they aren’t pursuing as a career? Oh, you get to “show your stuff” to NBA scouts? Cool. Guess what? Only 60 players get drafted every year and only half that are guaranteed money. Again, just using these kids on the whole. I’m not saying they are getting anything out the deal, but they are, without question, being used and the NCAA and the schools are getting the better end of the deal. So why not let them earn what this market out here will pay them if the NCAA doesn’t want to pay them? So, yeah, when I see a kid and/or his family had gotten a little bit of money from someone to go to a school, good for them. That money + what they get from their scholarship still doesn’t equal out, IMO. Just let the kids make money off themselves and enjoy them bringing eyeballs to your product. This doesn’t have to be hard.

lynbug:


--- Quote from: BannerMountainMan on March 11, 2019, 07:32:53 pm ---He got them all to stay, is the biggest reason.

--- End quote ---
And this has proven to be a big assignment for Andersen.

Razors85:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 09:00:43 pm ---Let’s start with the disingenuous intentions by which many of these players are recruited to UNIVERSITIES. The term “student-athlete” puts the student part first. Yet how many players on the Duke basketball would qualify for that school if they had no basketball talent. Vanderbilt? Hell, even the U of A. How many of the kids on our time would apply and get accepted to the university if they weren’t passed through due to athletics? Many of the athletes that occupy D1 basketball rosters come from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds and environments were structure is not present. They aren’t academically mature as a result of this. So how do they truly capitalize on this wonderful college education that is supposed to be the equivalent of what the school makes of their program?

These kids are be USED. The schools know it. They want them to play basketball. They don’t want them for academics. They want them to come help them win basketball games, sell tickets and merchandise, sign record-breaking TV contracts, etc. Their reward? A scholarship that many of them aren’t equipped to truly appreciate or take real advantage of because they’ve been passed through and babied since they were old enough to show some could capitalize on their talent. Are these schools offering basketball degrees? No. How many people go to school to get a degree for something that they aren’t pursuing as a career? Oh, you get to “show your stuff” to NBA scouts? Cool. Guess what? Only 60 players get drafted every year and only half that are guaranteed money. Again, just using these kids on the whole. I’m not saying they are getting anything out the deal, but they are, without question, being used and the NCAA and the schools are getting the better end of the deal. So why not let them earn what this market out here will pay them if the NCAA doesn’t want to pay them? So, yeah, when I see a kid and/or his family had gotten a little bit of money from someone to go to a school, good for them. That money + what they get from their scholarship still doesn’t equal out, IMO. Just let the kids make money off themselves and enjoy them bringing eyeballs to your product. This doesn’t have to be hard.

--- End quote ---

I'm still missing the perspective... If anything you need perspective. Not every kid is a Zion Williamson.

And how do you capitalize on your education!!!?? Really?? You get it, that is how. And then you go on to make ten times what you would if you hadn't had athletics to get you there.


Razors85:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 09:13:14 pm ---I'm still missing the perspective... If anything you need perspective. Not every kid is a Zion Williamson.

And how do you capitalize on your education!!!?? Really?? You get it, that is how. And then you go on to make ten times what you would if you hadn't had athletics to get you there.

--- End quote ---

And for you to downgrade the amount of academic support that these STUDENT athletes are afforded is laughable.... You have zero understanding of what it takes academically to get to a school and zero knowledge of the support that is there when an athlete arrives... I do on every level.

You need to find a new argument

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 09:24:08 pm ---And for you to downgrade the amount of academic support that these STUDENT athletes are afforded is laughable.... You have zero understanding of what it takes academically to get to a school and zero knowledge of the support that is there when an athlete arrives... I do on every level.

You need to find a new argument

--- End quote ---

Would many of them be there without athletics?

Yes or no question.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 09:13:14 pm ---I'm still missing the perspective... If anything you need perspective. Not every kid is a Zion Williamson.

And how do you capitalize on your education!!!?? Really?? You get it, that is how. And then you go on to make ten times what you would if you hadn't had athletics to get you there.

--- End quote ---

I don’t get why you’re bringing up Zion after reading my post. Surely you don’t think the NCAA makes billions off just a handful of elite players. You talk like you’re smarter than that.

Razors85:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 09:36:02 pm ---Would many of them be there without athletics?

Yes or no question.

--- End quote ---

Yes

Razors85:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 09:37:12 pm ---I don’t get why you’re bringing up Zion after reading my post. Surely you don’t think the NCAA makes billions off just a handful of elite players. You talk like you’re smarter than that.

--- End quote ---

Your argument only makes sense if you consider only that level of athlete.

Hawg Red:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 09:40:10 pm ---Your argument only makes sense if you consider only that level of athlete.

--- End quote ---

I overestimated you.

daprospecta:


--- Quote from: Razors85 on March 11, 2019, 09:13:14 pm ---I'm still missing the perspective... If anything you need perspective. Not every kid is a Zion Williamson.

And how do you capitalize on your education!!!?? Really?? You get it, that is how. And then you go on to make ten times what you would if you hadn't had athletics to get you there.

--- End quote ---
Here is some perspective for you. My junior year, I'm chatting on the sideline during practice with a sophomore. We were passing time until the next practice period started and I asked him what he wanted to do if football didn't work out. He said he always wanted to be a lawyer and was excited about the possibility. I asked him what his major was and he said Kinesiology.   I remember saying "Who told you to pick that major?" His response, "They did." I think you can figure out who "they" are. If you came in like me and knew exactly what you wanted to major in, none of the athletic advisers would put up a fuss but if you were a kid who didn't really know much about majors etc, you were placed in the easiest majors on the hill. Why? Because you want passing athletes even if the major they are in won't have many job prospects after graduation. The only reason this didn't put a sour taste in my mouth because they didn't deter athletes who picked difficult majors but they also don't have the athletes best interest at heart when he or she isn't knowledgeable about in demand majors etc.

Inhogswetrust:


--- Quote from: Dudeman on March 11, 2019, 07:01:40 pm ---Success means nothing to me if it's accomplished by cheating. I know many people are fine with it but I hate it. I would rather remain irrelevant and be honest.

--- End quote ---

Agree. At least Mike appears to run a clean program. However a coach is measured mostly by wins over the long haul. Quite a few so called great coaches also had the reputation as cheaters.

Arazorbackguy1:


--- Quote from: hamARchy in the USA on March 11, 2019, 08:31:48 pm ---Of course, we don't really know that MA hasn't tried to cheat.  It may be that he can't even buy a player.

--- End quote ---

He most definitely could have bought Monk.  Marcu$ would have made sure of it.

logic:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 08:20:23 pm ---But this Hogville, where everyone but Arkansas cheats. So if everyone else is doing it, is it really cheating?

--- End quote ---
Assuming that is true (and I don't believe it is), that is a valid argument; even more so if, as many claim, the rules are unequally enforced.  That is, if as some claim, violations by the blue buds are winked at with very short investigations and slap on the wrist penalties and where others have 4 year drawn out investigations and and then given very severe penalties

TrueBlue:

Bad question.

Everyone knows that we are a program of integrity - and have been for a “Long” time...

leroyhawg:


--- Quote from: Piglet on March 11, 2019, 06:54:59 pm ---with LSU?  The Tigers have won the conference title, they may win the conference tournament, and they could go deep in the big dance.  But their coach got caught cheating to bring in the players who got them in this position.  Whatever they accomplish this year will be at least tainted, maybe taken away from them. 

I have seen people post they wish Anderson would at least try to get these type players. In their opinion once you win big you can sustain the recruiting.  Even if the games and trophies have to be forfeited, nothing will change.  Everyone will still know who actually won the title.

They also argue that many of the successful coaches today are doing the same thing.  They are just very good at covering their tracks.

These are good arguments that I cannot really disagree with.  It comes down to what you really want - success regardless of how you did it or a program that plays by the rules but can't get better than average.  People have always cheated to try and get ahead whether it be in business or sports.  Some will continue to cheat no matter how strict the rules are.  Human nature will never change.  Don't expect this latest exposure to clean up college basketball.

So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules?

--- End quote ---

LSU is my second favorite team in the SEC, I would not trade places with them, this could ruin some young men's basketball Hope's. If investigated correctly should lead all the way to the Bluegrass State and John Calipari, it was a pretty good bidding war for three talented young men. If I was LSU I would play all my players, if we cant make it to the finals they will and I will be cheering for them against Calpari! Go Hogs!

ShadowHawg:


--- Quote from: Piglet on March 11, 2019, 06:54:59 pm ---with LSU?  The Tigers have won the conference title, they may win the conference tournament, and they could go deep in the big dance.  But their coach got caught cheating to bring in the players who got them in this position.  Whatever they accomplish this year will be at least tainted, maybe taken away from them. 

I have seen people post they wish Anderson would at least try to get these type players. In their opinion once you win big you can sustain the recruiting.  Even if the games and trophies have to be forfeited, nothing will change.  Everyone will still know who actually won the title.

They also argue that many of the successful coaches today are doing the same thing.  They are just very good at covering their tracks.

These are good arguments that I cannot really disagree with.  It comes down to what you really want - success regardless of how you did it or a program that plays by the rules but can't get better than average.  People have always cheated to try and get ahead whether it be in business or sports.  Some will continue to cheat no matter how strict the rules are.  Human nature will never change.  Don't expect this latest exposure to clean up college basketball.

So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules?

--- End quote ---

A lot of us have been fans of a team and program here that was BOTH number on and NOT cheating. Not cheating is way better.

Boardon Hamsay:


--- Quote from: Inhogswetrust on March 12, 2019, 01:52:43 pm ---Agree. At least Mike appears to run a clean program. However a coach is measured mostly by wins over the long haul. Quite a few so called great coaches also had the reputation as cheaters.

--- End quote ---

“Appears” is the most important word in this. Right or wrong, perception is reality.

King Kong:

NCAA should allow kids to make money off their likeness. NCAA could easily say we won’t pay you. But if someone else wants to pay you we won’t stop them.

So if a booster is will to pay 100,000 to an kid to go to his school so be it. Or if Johnny Football 50k to sign some things who cares. Assuming the proper taxes are filed

JenksHawg:


--- Quote from: Piglet on March 11, 2019, 06:54:59 pm ---with LSU?  The Tigers have won the conference title, they may win the conference tournament, and they could go deep in the big dance.  But their coach got caught cheating to bring in the players who got them in this position.  Whatever they accomplish this year will be at least tainted, maybe taken away from them. 

I have seen people post they wish Anderson would at least try to get these type players. In their opinion once you win big you can sustain the recruiting.  Even if the games and trophies have to be forfeited, nothing will change.  Everyone will still know who actually won the title.

They also argue that many of the successful coaches today are doing the same thing.  They are just very good at covering their tracks.

These are good arguments that I cannot really disagree with.  It comes down to what you really want - success regardless of how you did it or a program that plays by the rules but can't get better than average.  People have always cheated to try and get ahead whether it be in business or sports.  Some will continue to cheat no matter how strict the rules are.  Human nature will never change.  Don't expect this latest exposure to clean up college basketball.

So how do you feel about it?  Is it better to be mediocre and play by the rules ........or number one and break the rules?

--- End quote ---

The problem here is it assumes binary options - continue to suck like we do by "playing by the rules", or cheat and win.  I prefer option C - don't cheat but don't suck, like a lot of other successful programs do.

We've bought into this narrative that Anderson can't compete because he's clean  - no, he's mediocre because he runs an outdated system with marginal talent. 

latrops:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 07:31:44 pm ---In Year 2 of Rick Barnes tenure. We’re in Year 8. Guess you’re saying hang on for Year 10.

--- End quote ---

What Barnes has done at Tennessee is impressive...but at this point there is still a lot to prove.  If they are out in the first weekend and follow it up with a middle of the pack or worse SEC season next year....the perception of Barnes changes quite a bit from where it is now.  He needs NCAAT success and/or to keep the Vols near the top of the SEC.

hawg66:


--- Quote from: Hawg Red on March 11, 2019, 07:38:53 pm ---Part of managing a program. Another reason why Barnes is a truly good coach.

--- End quote ---
Barnes and Anderson both average right at 21.5 wins per season for their careers. Barnes hasn’t been to the Sweet 16 in a decade. He’s having a great year with a talented veteran team.

gmarv:

I try not to cheat at anything I do so why would I want to support cheating. NO I would not trade places with LSU.

razoredge178:


--- Quote from: lynbug on March 11, 2019, 09:11:27 pm ---And this has proven to be a big assignment for Andersen.

--- End quote ---

He doesn't have a record for player development. Gafford is comparable to last year at best- how good would that kid be if had an offseason with Calipari? Bet he wouldn't be running high point ball screens all game, floating around the three-point line all game, setting up "pick 'n rolls" that get executed for points about 1 in 50 times.

SONofHAM:

This idea that if it's not Mike Anderson as our coach, then we'd have a cheater on the sidelines is just insane. 

It's just another talking point used to protect Mike.  There are plenty of quality coaches out there who could improve our program without making us vacate wins or scholarships.

This is NOT an "either Mike or Cheating Coach" situation.



Razors85:


--- Quote from: daprospecta on March 12, 2019, 12:58:37 pm ---Here is some perspective for you. My junior year, I'm chatting on the sideline during practice with a sophomore. We were passing time until the next practice period started and I asked him what he wanted to do if football didn't work out. He said he always wanted to be a lawyer and was excited about the possibility. I asked him what his major was and he said Kinesiology.   I remember saying "Who told you to pick that major?" His response, "They did." I think you can figure out who "they" are. If you came in like me and knew exactly what you wanted to major in, none of the athletic advisers would put up a fuss but if you were a kid who didn't really know much about majors etc, you were placed in the easiest majors on the hill. Why? Because you want passing athletes even if the major they are in won't have many job prospects after graduation. The only reason this didn't put a sour taste in my mouth because they didn't deter athletes who picked difficult majors but they also don't have the athletes best interest at heart when he or she isn't knowledgeable about in demand majors etc.

--- End quote ---

I kinda left this whole topic... Sorry about that. I struggle with a response to this because it is one off and I don't know what was going on. Like you said I have seen all majors supported from kinesiology to engineering...

This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with what we are talking about but asking an 18 yr old to decide their career at that age is ridiculous.

MountieDawg:


--- Quote from: BannerMountainMan on March 11, 2019, 07:32:53 pm ---He got them all to stay, is the biggest reason.

--- End quote ---

MA had tons of Seniors last year with an NBA freshman.

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