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Author Topic: Arkansas Pro Day  (Read 1814 times)

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Otis Kirk

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Arkansas Pro Day
« on: March 11, 2019, 09:18:32 am »

Me and at least one other reporter got Dre Greenlaw with a 4.53 in the 40. One other had him at 4.57. That was good time gor him.

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 09:29:21 am »

We got a 4.48 on Ryan Pulley
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2019, 11:29:19 am »

What surface is Morris having them run on?

IIRC, Petrino had them run on a track surface? Or at least a track field rather than a football field?

Not at all surprised that Pulley was a lot faster, but that seems to be a ridiculous difference.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2019, 11:30:46 am »

Also, thanks for the updates and please keep them coming. Appreciate them a lot.
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HardingHog

Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2019, 11:34:28 am »

We got a 4.48 on Ryan Pulley

That's a big jump from where he was at the Combine. But, I could see where you're able to run better somewhere you're more familiar with (less nerves, big lights, etc.)
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arthurhawgerelli

Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2019, 11:34:47 am »

What surface is Morris having them run on?

IIRC, Petrino had them run on a track surface? Or at least a track field rather than a football field?

Not at all surprised that Pulley was a lot faster, but that seems to be a ridiculous difference.

Petrino had them place a strip of the same surface our track is made of in the indoor facility.  Fastest surface in the world.  I would think the Pro guys would want them on the turf just like at Indianapolis, but I have no clue.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2019, 12:29:51 pm »

Petrino had them place a strip of the same surface our track is made of in the indoor facility.  Fastest surface in the world.  I would think the Pro guys would want them on the turf just like at Indianapolis, but I have no clue.

Indy turf is notoriously slow, even by NFL standards.

Most every player who runs at the pro day and combine runs faster at the pro day. One: almost any surface other than the indy surface will help you run faster. Two: more time to train since most players don't train for sprinting (which is what the forty is) until they leave college, so they get a few extra weeks usually of training by pro day. Third: Comfort level with the facilities certainly also plays a factor.

I guess the benefit of Indy for the combine is that it is relatively central location for players around the country to get to. Plus, everybody is running on the same surface so you can compare a time ran in 2012 to one in 2019 (assuming indy hasn't radically changed the surface) vs if they rotated, you have to factor in where the combine is held. And that's basically the entire point of the combine in the first place, to establish a comparable baseline.
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SooieGeneris

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 12:34:23 pm »

Indy turf is notoriously slow, even by NFL standards.

Most every player who runs at the pro day and combine runs faster at the pro day. One: almost any surface other than the indy surface will help you run faster. Two: more time to train since most players don't train for sprinting (which is what the forty is) until they leave college, so they get a few extra weeks usually of training by pro day. Third: Comfort level with the facilities certainly also plays a factor.

I guess the benefit of Indy for the combine is that it is relatively central location for players around the country to get to. Plus, everybody is running on the same surface so you can compare a time ran in 2012 to one in 2019 (assuming indy hasn't radically changed the surface) vs if they rotated, you have to factor in where the combine is held. And that's basically the entire point of the combine in the first place, to establish a comparable baseline.

But the combine was only the week before last and Pulley ran on Friday, exactly 10 days ago. That's not a lot of time to go from 4.61 to 4.48..
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 12:35:51 pm »

Me and at least one other reporter got Dre Greenlaw with a 4.53 in the 40. One other had him at 4.57. That was good time gor him.

Also, that is a very good time. Alas, the scouts are all pretty much saying he has everything athletically you could want, but that he isn't very tough or aggressive.

Quote
Overview
Run and chase 4-3 WILL linebacker with the quickness to flow ahead of blocks to the football, but a lack of willful aggression to fire downhill and put his stamp on games. It will be difficult for Greenlaw to make a living with nothing more than clean-up tackles on his own side of the ball so he needs to turn that speed and athleticism into weapons of disruption. His speed and athleticism give him a chance to carve out a career as a special teams ace and nickel cover talent.
Strengths
Four-year starter
Smooth athlete with loose hips
Plays with quick flow to the football
Rangy with NFL-caliber play speed
Shows ability to chase down jet sweeps and drag crossing routes
Displays body control and tempo in his movement
He's usually be around the football
Above-average agility as open field finisher
Reactive athleticism mirror ball-carrier and tackle in space
Possesses physical gifts for man coverage
Weaknesses
Looks small, plays small
Rare to trigger downhill and attack backfield
Too much hesitation in stepping into run fits
Needs to improve functional strength
Gets wired to blocks rather than playing off of them
Needs to get better at eluding lead blocks and climbers
Below-average pop in pads as tackler
Doesn't play with desired football IQ
Gets caught out of position in run game and zone drops
Sources Tell Us

"Good athlete. Former safety. He runs well, but I don't think he's tough enough to trust him in a game. He better be really good on special teams unless he finds more dog inside him." - NFC area scout

Similar things I've said about him in the past too. Great at making the clean up tackles, but he doesn't make the impact plays. However, he really improved IMO his senior year in that area. As a 4 year starter, he had 6.5 tfl his first three years combined and then matched that this past season. 2 sacks his first three years combined and matches that his last year. Couple that with 2 interceptions and if I'm Greenlaw, that's what I'm pitching heavily. His total tackles dropped his senior year, but his meaningful production skyrocketed.
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Otis Kirk

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2019, 12:36:58 pm »

What surface is Morris having them run on?

IIRC, Petrino had them run on a track surface? Or at least a track field rather than a football field?

Not at all surprised that Pulley was a lot faster, but that seems to be a ridiculous difference.

yeah, not on the track, just on the regular surface at the Walker Pavilion. Remember I think the combine was laser and ours was hand held. The NFL got him at high 4.4's as well so my time was pretty accurate on him. But I think that is why you are seeing the big difference. But also he dropped 9 pounds from the combine to today. So that helped him too.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2019, 12:37:38 pm »

But the combine was only the week before last and Pulley ran on Friday, exactly 10 days ago. That's not a lot of time to go from 4.61 to 4.48..

I was talking about "most players" a few words up from bolded, giving a general discussion on differences in pro day to combine.

Arkansas has a really early pro day this year so yeah, very little time b/w specifically for our players. Hence, wondering what surface Morris has our guys running on.
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Otis Kirk

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2019, 12:38:31 pm »

I will have a story on Pulley, Watts and Froholdt in coming days.

Otis Kirk

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2019, 12:39:08 pm »

I was talking about "most players" a few words up from bolded, giving a general discussion on differences in pro day to combine.

Arkansas has a really early pro day this year so yeah, very little time b/w specifically for our players. Hence, wondering what surface Morris has our guys running on.

It was  just the regular surface at Walker
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HogX

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2019, 12:44:12 pm »

Remember I think the combine was laser and ours was hand held.

That makes sense.  I saw some research that showed that hand held 40 yard dash times tend to make players around .2 seconds faster vs laser times. 
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2019, 12:45:41 pm »

yeah, not on the track, just on the regular surface at the Walker Pavilion. Remember I think the combine was laser and ours was hand held. The NFL got him at high 4.4's as well so my time was pretty accurate on him. But I think that is why you are seeing the big difference. But also he dropped 9 pounds from the combine to today. So that helped him too.

9 pounds? That can't be a healthy drop in weight over that short a time. Probably all water weight but not good to be that dehydrated and putting that much physical strain on yourself. Though, a forty time in the 4.4's instead of 4.6's could be a difference in millions of dollars for him, so can't say I blame him for trying.

Also, yeah, hand timed by people experienced/trained in doing that is going to be usually about 0.05 give or take faster. I.e. a hand time 4.48 would be a laser 4.53 and so on. So, maybe 0.05 faster for hand timed, 0.05 faster for being dehydrated, and another 0.05 faster for being on our surface instead of Indy's and there you go.

Besides, his tape largely speaks for itself. Int's, pbu's, added tfl's his last season here, and doing so against some top level receivers too. Here's what some scouts are saying about him. Seems pretty accurate. Not the best on tracking the ball on deep passes and especially this past season displayed inconsistent effort.

Quote
Overview
Press cornerback with good strength, balance and aggressiveness to disrupt the release and maintain hip-to-hip relationship down the field. Pulley's hip tightness can push him into a prolonged recovery mode and his downfield ball skills are below average. He's generally able to handle his man coverage but is average from zone. How Arkansas coaches characterize him could go a long way in determining if he gets drafted, but he has Day 3 talent and chance to become a decent backup.
Strengths
Stocky and strong
Good communicator with back-end pre-snap
Well-versed in a variety of coverages
Aggressive demeanor from press
Plays under receiver's chin and redirects with sharp punches
Drives outside release against sideline
Stays balanced through press open
Good effort to play hip-to-hip downfield
Built to gather, sink and redirect vs
comebacks
Makes good path adjustments in-flight from bail
Good recognition from slide shuffle to jump vertical seams
Edgy and competitive
Weaknesses
Missed 2017 with pectoral injury
Suspended from team for fraternization with Mississippi St
spirit squad before game
Hip tightness slows transition to sprint
Struggles maintaining field balance vs
high-low route concepts
Inconsistent matching routes from trail
Step slow to feel route development and shade breaks
Below average playing ball downfield
Defaults to face-guarding and force rather than finding ball
Inconsistent effort getting off blocks
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onebadrubi

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2019, 12:51:50 pm »

That very last line above is interesting.  Should be put up on a bulletin board within this program.  I believe he loafed around a lot last year, and it's showing back up.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2019, 12:52:07 pm »

That makes sense.  I saw some research that showed that hand held 40 yard dash times tend to make players around .2 seconds faster vs laser times.

https://www.physicaleducationupdate.com/public/555.cfm

This one showed a range of about .12 to .19 seconds faster for hand times.

https://www.zybeksports.com/hand-timed-versus-electronic-timed-40-yard-dash/

Showed 0.1 to 0.25s variability with an average of about .175

https://www.naseinc.com/blog/hand-timed-vs-electronic-timed-40-yard-dash/

This one showed about 0.22s difference.

So, I guess my 0.05 was a bit optimistic. However, you rarely see 0.2s differences from pro day times to combine times, or even .15s differences.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2019, 12:54:10 pm »

Lastly, if you read around scouting blogs or people who have genuine inside information on NFL draft rumors and such, the scouts and NFL teams usually go by their own handheld times more than the electronic times. Probably for consistency. One of the links above talked about that while the handheld times aren't as accurate as electronic, they are incredibly precise, so you can get very accurate differences.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2019, 12:58:16 pm »

Anybody tweeting more results from the pro day?
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TXHog30

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2019, 01:21:31 pm »

does having a better pro day than combine 40 make a difference for someone like Pulley? Will scouts look at both? I feel like the laser at the combine is the end-all
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2019, 01:58:15 pm »

does having a better pro day than combine 40 make a difference for someone like Pulley? Will scouts look at both? I feel like the laser at the combine is the end-all

Far from it.

As mentioned above, scouts usually look at their own hand-held times above the electronic time. Why? Hard to say, but probably because hand held times are pretty precise so you can at least get very accurate relative differences doing hand held times at your team facility, combine, and pro days compared to trying to compare laster combine vs hand held facility and/or pro day.

Further, also as mentioned above, players don't train for the forty yard dash until they leave college mostly. Why? It's a sprinting technique. Name a single position that lines up in that stance at the snap? So, improving that technique takes some time, and players often do make real gains in their forty between the two.

If you want some real life examples. Greg Childs immediately comes to mind. He had some good numbers before his injury, but never had a full monster season like Knile did. Put up pretty mild numbers at the combine coming off a fairly bad season as his only tape post-injury. Then, he absolutely kills it at the pro day and probably bumped up a round or two.

Jamal Adams S at LSU. Top 10 pick IIRC. Ran a 4.56 at the combine and then a 4.33 at his pro day.

There's usually quite a few players every year that significantly improve on their combine performances and boost their stock.

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tusked

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 03:25:05 pm »

Still donít think Pulley has overall top speed a NFL CB needs to make it in the league.

Iíll try and find what the group of AR CBís that made teams and played in the NFL ran at the COMBINE.  They were all under 4.4
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 03:30:09 pm »

Still donít think Pulley has overall top speed a NFL CB needs to make it in the league.

Iíll try and find what the group of AR CBís that made teams and played in the NFL ran at the COMBINE.  They were all under 4.4

No, they weren't.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/nfl-combine-results.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2019&pos%5B%5D=CB&school_id=Arkansas&show=all&c1stat=forty_yd&c1comp=gt&order_by=year_id

Toliver was on the practice squad last year, and David Barrett ran a 4.44. Tevin Mitchel didn't run sub 4.40 and I'm not sure why he isn't showing up on that link.

If you expand to include players who made teams and didn't participate in the combine, Greg Gatson played several seasons for the Chargers (from the Petrino era) and ran in the mid 4.5's at the pro day.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:40:23 pm by bennyl08 »
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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 03:33:04 pm »

No, they weren't.

Yep, Iím on my cell and was trying to google it.  When I get home to my laptop Iíll post it.  It was Chris Houston, Grant and a couple others.
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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2019, 03:35:10 pm »


Chris Houston ran. 4.32.  Will find more later
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2019, 03:42:17 pm »

Chris Houston ran. 4.32.  Will find more later

Ahmad Carrol ran a 4.34 as well. That's the only other one I can find.

Michael Grant also ran a sub 4.40 forty time, but never really made it in the NFL.
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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2019, 04:03:13 pm »

Ahmad Carrol ran a 4.34 as well. That's the only other one I can find.

Michael Grant also ran a sub 4.40 forty time, but never really made it in the NFL.

Thatís my point, who was the last CB for the hogs to make a NFL roster that ran over a 4.4?
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2019, 04:09:53 pm »

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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2019, 04:10:19 pm »

Still donít think Pulley has overall top speed a NFL CB needs to make it in the league.

Iíll try and find what the group of AR CBís that made teams and played in the NFL ran at the COMBINE.  They were all under 4.4

From 2000 to 2019, only 105 CB's have run a sub 4.40 and only 88 of those were drafted. In contrast, you have to go all the way up to a 4.55 to find similar numbers on the slower end with 179 cb's running a 4.55 or slower and 77 of them being drafted.

Below are all the all-pro cb's of the past 6 years and their forty times. If you take the average, is a 4.50.

Jalen Ramsey 4.41
Xavier Rhodes 4.43
Casey Hayward 4.57
AJ Bouye 4.55
Byron Jones 4.36 *pro day
Xavian Howard 4.58
Kyle Fuller 4.49
Stephen Gilmore 4.38
Patrick Peterson 4.34
Josh Norman 4.66
Richard Sherman 4.56
Chris Harris Jr 4.48* pro day
Marcus Peters 4.53
Aqib Talib 4.44
Janoris Jenkins 4.46
Malcom Butler 4.62* pro day
Joe Haden 4.52
Alterraun Verner 4.52
Darrelle Revis; disputed, was believed to be a 4.53, reportedly ran 4.39 in a private workout.
Brent Grimes 4.57
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2019, 04:11:18 pm »

Thatís my point, who was the last CB for the hogs to make a NFL roster that ran over a 4.4?

Gatson, Mitchel, and Toliver. Gatson at 4.56 is the most recent CB to play in a game so far for the hogs.
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bennyl08

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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2019, 04:40:43 pm »



If true...

Cornelius showed very good change of direction and agility, but bad explosiveness. Good strength and less than ideal forty.
Cross was talked about as being very fast, but only put a 4.53 forty time. Better broad jump than Cornelius, but worse agility and quickness and no strength.
Gibson did terribly but with a surprising good vertical.
Greenlaw's forty here is about a full tenth slower than what Otis reported on. His 3cone and shuttle were near the bottom of those at the combine, though many at the combine didn't participate.
Ryder showed good athleticism and decently balanced strength and agility, but also why he was mostly a special team walk-on.
Pulley at 4.50 is a lot better than his combine and on par with what was reported earlier. Relatively slow shuttle goes with what was reported on by the scouts with slow to react to a WR changing diretion.
Ramirez showed very high level athleticism for what he did perform in. Not sure if he voluntarily didn't do the rest or if he pulled a hamstring or something. 17 bench is middle of the pack at the combine, 38" vert would put him #5 at the combine and the 10'3" broad would put him tied at 8th. For example, of what he did do, that would put Ramirez ahead of LSU S Jamal Adams and just a bit behind LSU CB Patrick Peterson.
Ramsey didn't do too well, IMO. 4.69 forty isn't going to catch any eyes given his smaller weight, and running the shuttle even slower than your forty time is really bad. He did put up a lot more on the bench than I expected though and for his size that is a good number.
Richardson showed why he was a walk-on most of the time here, but also why he earned a scholarship. Not very good explosion or speed, but his agility was quite good and that let him be a good nickel for us.
Taylor put up slightly better numbers than Ramsey and was about 15 pounds heavier.
Wallace did worse than Gibson in the explosiveness and strength, but was quite a bit faster and very agile, ranking in the top third of the combine even. That's probably what got him scholarship offers to places like Bama and Ohio St.
Watts was at the lower end of the bench reps based on the combine, but right on par with Alabama big man Buggs.
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Porkys Revenge

Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2019, 04:42:21 pm »


And this is why our defense has been horrid. Slow as Christmas.
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Re: Arkansas Pro Day
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2019, 06:01:38 pm »

Yeah I'm gonna stick with my original statement.  Pulley ain't making a career in the NFL.
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