RB Sports Discussion > Monday Morning Quarterback

If Holtz or Hatfield stayed longer, would Arkansas be a different program now?

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Sweet Feet:

Holtz was responsible for the 77 season and other good seasons, while Hatfield has the highest winning percentage in school history. Holtz also made ND a frequent power after he left Arkansas. If either one would have stayed longer, would Arkansas have been in much better shape as a program while transitioning to the SEC?

RyanMallettsEgo:

Is this mj4president's dupe account?

Can someone do an audit?

http://forums.hogville.net/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=59062

island hog:

Although Hatfield's offense may not be as effective in today's world, he was one of my favorite coaches of all time.  Class act all the way and a Razorback star in his day to boot.  Admired the work he did at Rice too. 


Inhogswetrust:


--- Quote from: island hog on March 01, 2019, 02:10:30 pm ---Although Hatfield's offense may not be as effective in today's world, he was one of my favorite coaches of all time.  Class act all the way and a Razorback star in his day to boot.  Admired the work he did at Rice too. 


--- End quote ---

I like Ken fine. But why admire his work at Rice. He had a losing record there just like a lot of their coaches have had.

lstewart:

I don't think it would have had any impact today, although it is possible we might have had a few better years along that timeframe. For the most part we were good through that stretch of years. But that was one continuous period. Hotz was slipping due to a few different issues, much of which was recruiting.  Hatfield probably would have had a decent program for a few more years, but probably not at the level of his best years.

Mike Irwin:


--- Quote from: Sweet Feet on March 01, 2019, 01:49:02 pm ---Holtz was responsible for the 77 season and other good seasons, while Hatfield has the highest winning percentage in school history. Holtz also made ND a frequent power after he left Arkansas. If either one would have stayed longer, would Arkansas have been in much better shape as a program while transitioning to the SEC?

--- End quote ---

Holtz no. His win-loss record got progressive worse every year he coached at Arkansas. The man had no relationship with high school coaches in the state. By the time he was fired the best instate kids were going elsewhere.

Under Hatfield the football program got BETTER the longer he stayed. However he left on his own because he was mad at Frank. HE would have been better off if he'd stayed. He never did at Clemson and Rice what he did at Arkansas.

Superhog1959:


--- Quote from: Sweet Feet on March 01, 2019, 01:49:02 pm ---Holtz was responsible for the 77 season and other good seasons, while Hatfield has the highest winning percentage in school history. Holtz also made ND a frequent power after he left Arkansas. If either one would have stayed longer, would Arkansas have been in much better shape as a program while transitioning to the SEC?

--- End quote ---
Holtz had Franks leftover players, and he did well with them. Then recruiting slipped and Frank let him know about it. Lou ended up gone.

Ken was a very good coach, we had some of the best defenses under him. People complained even joked that Ken would not pass the ball. Other teams did and was exciting to watch. But Ken won a lot of games so he was here awhile. He won a lot of games, but the fans still did complain. Then Ken lost to Texas, I think like on the last play, cant remember the year.

Frank ripped him a knew one and Ken didn't forget it. I think it was more than just that Texas game. Ken never could win the big games. Matter of fact we would usually get blown out.

Later he left for Clemson, quit, with out notice. That (to me) was the beginning of Razorback football downturn. From 1989 back to 1964 the Hogs were national contenders most every year. Some down years, but mostly top 20 to even top 10.

We had some really good teams under Nutt, but Nutt was not a championship type coach. Nutt like BP liked extra circular activities. BP showed signs he was the man. But Saban owned him, then he self destructed. Just my opinion but I think BP would have failed here in the long run, because he had other things going besides trying to recruit good players.

JLS fielded a team like we had last year. Total mess.

BB got full of himself and other things and basically fell apart. He might be a good assistant, but with out guidance he's lost. Not head coach material.

mj4president:


--- Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on March 01, 2019, 01:56:12 pm ---Is this mj4president's dupe account?

Can someone do an audit?

http://forums.hogville.net/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=59062

--- End quote ---

You and Seebs are mj4pcessed

Pigsknuckles:


--- Quote from: Superhog1959 on March 01, 2019, 02:52:49 pm ---Holtz had Franks leftover players, and he did well with them. Then recruiting slipped and Frank let him know about it. Lou ended up gone.

Ken was a very good coach, we had some of the best defenses under him. People complained even joked that Ken would not pass the ball. Other teams did and was exciting to watch. But Ken won a lot of games so he was here awhile. He won a lot of games, but the fans still did complain. Then Ken lost to Texas, I think like on the last play, cant remember the year.

Frank ripped him a knew one and Ken didn't forget it. I think it was more than just that Texas game. Ken never could win the big games. Matter of fact we would usually get blown out.

Later he left for Clemson, quit, with out notice. That (to me) was the beginning of Razorback football downturn. From 1989 back to 1964 the Hogs were national contenders most every year. Some down years, but mostly top 20 to even top 10.

We had some really good teams under Nutt, but Nutt was not a championship type coach. Nutt like BP liked extra circular activities. BP showed signs he was the man. But Saban owned him, then he self destructed. Just my opinion but I think BP would have failed here in the long run, because he had other things going besides trying to recruit good players.

JLS fielded a team like we had last year. Total mess.

BB got full of himself and other things and basically fell apart. He might be a good assistant, but with out guidance he's lost. Not head coach material.

--- End quote ---

I believe the Texas game you referenced was the 1987 game. Beat us on an 18 yard pass on the final play of the game. That one I place right next to the Stoernover as far ripping my heart out. Though usually effective, folks grew weary of his 3rd and 8 give it to the fullback offense (Veer option I think?).

hawkhawg:

I think the best "What if" is would Arkansas be a different program if it had hired Jimmy Johnson.

Seebs:

After running the numbers, all of the seasons would have been exactly the same if Holtz Stayed 30 plus years.  Nice Catch.

Get a hobby... or a pet. 

hawkhawg:


--- Quote from: Seebs on March 01, 2019, 03:39:33 pm ---After running the numbers, all of the seasons would have been exactly the same if Holtz Stayed 30 plus years.  Nice Catch.

Get a hobby... or a pet. 

--- End quote ---

Just another negative on Frank Broyles.  He should have given Holtz that 30 year contract.

Hawggy_Style:

What if the bear had taken the job when offered? What if Switzer was hired after Hatfield?

Seebs:


--- Quote from: mj4president on March 01, 2019, 02:57:38 pm ---You and Seebs are mj4pcessed

--- End quote ---

Enjoy your fandom. You are awesome and I eagerly await your next query.  You are no Robert Shields but you may be more Wally Hallesque.

ricepig:


--- Quote from: Hawggy_Style on March 01, 2019, 03:47:58 pm ---What if the bear had taken the job when offered? What if Switzer was hired after Hatfield?

--- End quote ---

What if beer had been served stadium wide back then?

Hawggy_Style:


--- Quote from: ricepig on March 01, 2019, 03:50:33 pm ---What if beer had been served stadium wide back then?

--- End quote ---

More revenue to expand the stadium or buy better players.

Mike Irwin:

What if Jeffey had hired Phil Fulmer instead of Jonnell Smith?

ricepig:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 01, 2019, 05:20:14 pm ---What if Jeffey had hired Phil Fulmer instead of Jonnell Smith?

--- End quote ---
The donut business would have gone through the roof in Fayetteville?

tusked:


Anybody know who the assistant coach and top recruiter was that put most of the team together that Holtz made his run with ?

jgphillips3:


--- Quote from: tusked on March 01, 2019, 07:10:43 pm ---Anybody know who the assistant coach and top recruiter was that put most of the team together that Holtz made his run with ?

--- End quote ---

Would you be referring to our defensive coordinator that we should have hired instead of Hatfield?  The one that whipped us mercilessly in Little Rock in 1987?

Hawggy_Style:


--- Quote from: ricepig on March 01, 2019, 05:29:05 pm ---The donut business would have gone through the roof in Fayetteville?

--- End quote ---

The real question is... Where is the best donut in Fayetteville?

liljo:


--- Quote from: Pigsknuckles on March 01, 2019, 03:28:10 pm ---I believe the Texas game you referenced was the 1987 game. Beat us on an 18 yard pass on the final play of the game. That one I place right next to the Stoernover as far ripping my heart out. Though usually effective, folks grew weary of his 3rd and 8 give it to the fullback offense (Veer option I think?).

--- End quote ---
I believe Superhog1959 nailed it in saying the Hatfield Departure marked The End for a quarter century run by the Hogs that had them “on the map” so to speak. 

And yes, the ‘87 Texas loss was the most painful game ever attended for me. The loss itself, the way it happened—while devastating, paled to witnessing many fans booing our coach while they were leaving the field. And more than a few were cussing and even some bottle throwing. They all looked like snakes to me and I wanted to beat hell out of every single one of them.

Nobody hurt worse than the team and coaches that day. To have “fans” pour it on, man, I still remember those mother——- >:(

By the way, David Bazzel was providing excellent coverage on that final play—Texas just made a play, man. They just made a ... play.

redeye:


--- Quote from: Superhog1959 on March 01, 2019, 02:52:49 pm ---BP showed signs he was the man. But Saban owned him, then he self destructed. Just my opinion but I think BP would have failed here in the long run, because he had other things going besides trying to recruit good players.


--- End quote ---

Enjoyed your summary!

I'm skeptical that BP would have kept up in recruiting.  Although everyone thought the 2012 team had great talent, I thought there was already a big drop-off from 2011, and expected 2012 to be tough, even before the motorcycle accident.

Razorback12111:

 That Texas game was 87 in Little Rock I was there



Bacons Rebellion:

What if Francis Schmidt had just stayed? We would be putting our pants on one leg at a time.

Superhog1959:


--- Quote from: Hawggy_Style on March 01, 2019, 03:47:58 pm ---What if the bear had taken the job when offered? What if Switzer was hired after Hatfield?

--- End quote ---
Switzer had it made at OU. He could party and do what he wanted. He would never come to Arkansas, Frank, if he did hire him would have made him behave.
For those of you that haven't read Switzers bio, I recommend it. Really good read, lots of fun stories.

roothawg:

They would have stayed longer if it weren't for frank

lasthog:


--- Quote from: ricepig on March 01, 2019, 03:50:33 pm ---What if beer had been served stadium wide back then?

--- End quote ---

If I hadn't blown 200.00 in Tijuana in 1989 would I have an extra 200.00 in my wallet today?

ricepig:


--- Quote from: lasthog on March 02, 2019, 08:56:22 am ---If I hadn't blown 200.00 in Tijuana in 1989 would I have an extra 200.00 in my wallet today?

--- End quote ---

You probably would have gotten rolled later that night, if they knew you still had it.

tusked:


--- Quote from: jgphillips3 on March 01, 2019, 07:49:42 pm ---Would you be referring to our defensive coordinator that we should have hired instead of Hatfield?  The one that whipped us mercilessly in Little Rock in 1987?

--- End quote ---

You sir win a lifetime membership to the hogs of the month club.

Inhogswetrust:


--- Quote from: lasthog on March 02, 2019, 08:56:22 am ---If I hadn't blown 200.00 in Tijuana in 1989 would I have an extra 200.00 in my wallet today?

--- End quote ---

Depends on which massage parlor you went to later.

Hoot72:

I thought that the blow-up between Broyles and Hatfield, was that Frank wanted Hatfield to change (demanded) some assistants -- and Hatfield took the Clemson job without ever seeing the campus.

UnknownNobody:


--- Quote from: Pigsknuckles on March 01, 2019, 03:28:10 pm ---I believe the Texas game you referenced was the 1987 game. Beat us on an 18 yard pass on the final play of the game. That one I place right next to the Stoernover as far ripping my heart out. Though usually effective, folks grew weary of his 3rd and 8 give it to the fullback offense (Veer option I think?).

--- End quote ---

Hatfield brought the Flex-bone to Fayetteville and ran that offense until 1989 when Jack Crowe brought in the Option I.

jusgtohogs:


--- Quote from: Hoot72 on March 02, 2019, 09:24:56 pm ---I thought that the blow-up between Broyles and Hatfield, was that Frank wanted Hatfield to change (demanded) some assistants -- and Hatfield took the Clemson job without ever seeing the campus.

--- End quote ---

it was.  Had Dr. Lou stuck around the program would have continued to decline (as it had at the end of his tenure).

Mike Irwin:

Arkansas had a football coach in the early years who had  a good amount of success. Years ago I was doing show on the history of Razorback football and was talking to an elderly letterman from those days. I asked him what happened to that coach.

He lowered his voice (there was no camera on us, we were just talking) and whispered. "He got fired." When I asked why in light of the man's success, he whispered again, "We never knew for sure but it might have had something to do with the rumor that he had syphilis."

Needless to say that bit of speculation did not make it into the show but it occurs to me that decades ago a previous AD may had sat in Jeff Long shoes.  Were the fans mad at him too? Should old coach whatever have gotten a break?

Motorcycles & volleyball girls. Syphilis. When it comes to Hog football there's always something that messes things up.

oldhawg:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 01, 2019, 05:20:14 pm ---What if Jeffey had hired Phil Fulmer instead of Jonnell Smith?

--- End quote ---

Or Butch Davis.

I have had that thought from time to time.  IMO, If Long had hired either Fulmer or Davis to replace Petrino, it would have had to be for more than just an interim, trial basis.  He would have had to commit to them, and allowed them to pick their own staffs.  In hindsight, that might not have been such a bad thing to do.  If I remember correctly, Long seemed committed to hiring someone that would keep the current staff intact.

Can't turn back the clock. 

oldhawg:


--- Quote from: jusgtohogs on March 03, 2019, 09:55:41 am ---it was.  Had Dr. Lou stuck around the program would have continued to decline (as it had at the end of his tenure).

--- End quote ---

If Holtz had not been fired, he likely would have stayed around only two more seasons, at which time Notre Dame would have come a'calling, and Holtz would have left on his own accord at that time.  IMO those two extra seasons would have been winning seasons.

In 1986, Jimmy Johnson was already at Miami, and I don't think that he would have returned to coach Arkansas at that time.  Ken Hatfield at Air Force would probably still been the logical choice.  How long would Hatfield have lasted as Razorback coach?  Hard to say say, but my guess is that he would have stuck it out beyond the 1989 season, and perhaps been the coach in Arkansas's transition to the SEC.

Regardless of what happened then, I would have liked to have seen Arkansas hire Tommy Tuberville in 1999 when he went to Auburn from Ole Miss instead.  Had that happened, IMO he would have stayed at Arkansas until he retired, and left the program in much better shape going forward.

Well, there is my fantasy football for the Razorbacks football past.     

Mike Irwin:


--- Quote from: oldhawg on March 03, 2019, 05:03:58 pm ---
If Holtz had not been fired, he likely would have stayed around only two more seasons, at which time Notre Dame would have come a'calling, and Holtz would have left on his own accord at that time.  IMO those two extra seasons would have been winning seasons.

In 1986, Jimmy Johnson was already at Miami, and I don't think that he would have returned to coach Arkansas at that time.  Ken Hatfield at Air Force would probably still been the logical choice.  How long would Hatfield have lasted as Razorback coach?  Hard to say say, but my guess is that he would have stuck it out beyond the 1989 season, and perhaps been the coach in Arkansas's transition to the SEC.

Regardless of what happened then, I would have liked to have seen Arkansas hire Tommy Tuberville in 1999 when he went to Auburn from Ole Miss instead.  Had that happened, IMO he would have stayed at Arkansas until he retired, and left the program in much better shape going forward.

Well, there is my fantasy football for the Razorbacks football past.   

--- End quote ---
Lou's recruiting was in the toilet by the time he was fired. He would not have won the next two years and he would have not gotten the Notre Dame job

Frank interviewed Jimmy Johnson in '83 before he interviewed Hatfield. Jimmy wanted the job badly and thought he had it. I know. I talked to him the day he came in.

I was later told that Frank hired Hatfield because he was afraid Jimmy would get Arkansas on probation. However Jimmy's claim to fame at that point was that he had had decent teams at Oklahoma State. Frank told me that Hatfield's success at Air Force was more impressive to him.

oldhawg:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 03, 2019, 05:23:13 pm --- Lou's recruiting was in the toilet by the time he was fired. He would not have won the next two years and he would have not gotten the Notre Dame job

Frank interviewed Jimmy Johnson in '83 before he interviewed Hatfield. Jimmy wanted the job badly and thought he had it. I know. I talked to him the day he came in.

I was later told that Frank hired Hatfield because he was afraid Jimmy would get Arkansas on probation. However Jimmy's claim to fame at that point was that he had had decent teams at Oklahoma State. Frank told me that Hatfield's success at Air Force was more impressive to him.

--- End quote ---

Yet After Holtz left Arkansas, he was only 4-7 and 6-5 in his two years at Minnesota before going to Notre Dame.  You don't think that he could have managed better than that with two more years as Razorback coach rather than as head Gopher?

Mike Irwin:


--- Quote from: oldhawg on March 03, 2019, 05:44:29 pm ---Yet After Holtz left Arkansas, he was only 4-7 and 6-5 in his two years at Minnesota before going to Notre Dame.  You don't think that he could have managed better than that with two more years as Razorback coach rather than as head Gopher?

--- End quote ---
At Minnesota he was rebuilding a bad program. At Arkansas his teams got worse every single season. From No. 3 in the nation he eventually went to 6-5.  If he had stayed at Arkansas two more years nobody would have likely hired him.

majestic:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 03, 2019, 06:23:50 pm --- At Minnesota he was rebuilding a bad program. At Arkansas his teams got worse every single season. From No. 3 in the nation he eventually went to 6-5.  If he had stayed at Arkansas two more years nobody would have likely hired him.

--- End quote ---
His teams did not get worse every season at AR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Holtz


plumbhog:


--- Quote from: Razorback12111 on March 02, 2019, 03:59:40 am --- That Texas game was 87 in Little Rock I was there



--- End quote ---
Is that the game that Tony Jones caught the winning TD on the last play for Texas?

jgphillips3:


--- Quote from: plumbhog on March 03, 2019, 09:25:25 pm ---Is that the game that Tony Jones caught the winning TD on the last play for Texas?

--- End quote ---

Yep.  I was there.  Still sucks 32 years later.

Superhog1959:


--- Quote from: oldhawg on March 03, 2019, 04:46:28 pm ---Or Butch Davis.

I have had that thought from time to time.  IMO, If Long had hired either Fulmer or Davis to replace Petrino, it would have had to be for more than just an interim, trial basis.  He would have had to commit to them, and allowed them to pick their own staffs.  In hindsight, that might not have been such a bad thing to do.  If I remember correctly, Long seemed committed to hiring someone that would keep the current staff intact.

Can't turn back the clock.

--- End quote ---
Hindsight, aint that the truth. Looking back to the BB hire, at the time, it seemed like a really good hire to me. The guy wasn't old, he had been a winner for some time. Rose Bowls all that stuff. He could blow words out of his mouth that made sense, or at least seemed to. I understand how we, or anyone could be fooled. But unlike Frank, I don't think Long thought the process through or did research on who BB really was. If he had, probably wouldn't have made that hire. 

Frank picked Kenny over Jimmy. If you study their personalities and knew their lifestyles, it makes sense. (In comparison to Franks personality). I think Kenny had more success here than Jimmy would have had. He also stayed longer than Jimmy would have. Jimmy was a great coach in the right atmosphere and location. With Frank calling the shots, I could see Jimmy getting frustrated early. Kenny did, it just took him longer. That's just my opinion, I can see where some would disagree.

Mike made the comment on how something always seems to go wrong. I get it that something will go wrong at times. It sure does seem like we have had more than our share though. Even recently. Maybe soon we can break this curse.

oldhawg:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 03, 2019, 06:23:50 pm --- At Minnesota he was rebuilding a bad program. At Arkansas his teams got worse every single season. From No. 3 in the nation he eventually went to 6-5.  If he had stayed at Arkansas two more years nobody would have likely hired him.

--- End quote ---

Still not convinced that the program was totally in the toilet when Holtz was fired.

Ken Hatfield brought with him a new staff, totally new offensive and defensive schemes, and still managed to go 7-4-1 and 10-2 his first two years at Arkansas ---- essentially with athletes that Holtz had recruited. 

I do not have, and never have had, the connections and insight that you have into Arkansas athletics (which I respect), but from the outside it just appears that the talent was there for Holtz to keep having some success at Arkansas, and subsequently to be offered the head coaching job by ND a couple of years later.

Again, no insight from my quarters, but I do wonder if after Holtz's 6-5 season in 1983, a good ass-chewing and ultimatum by Broyles would have served the same purpose as firing him.

All just speculation and water under the bridge.   

hogcards:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 01, 2019, 05:20:14 pm ---What if Jeffey had hired Phil Fulmer instead of Jonnell Smith?

--- End quote ---

So many mistakes were made that year.


31to6:


--- Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 01, 2019, 05:20:14 pm ---What if Jeffey had hired Phil Fulmer instead of Jonnell Smith?

--- End quote ---
Who knows. A lot of people make fun of his weight (former OL in fried food country.. what do you expect?), but he was a great coach.

JLS+CBB vs. Phil ?

I think we would have won more than 2.13 SEC games per season over 6 years with Fulmer.

Hoggindaus:

Only if the extended tenure of either coach would have led to Nutt being hired as the water boy instead of the head coach. Nutt was the demise, at least, in my eyes.

redleg:

Not so sure about Holtz, but if Uncle Frank had kept his nose out of Hatfield's business and let him coach the team like he saw fit, the answer to the posed question is ... Yes. The Razorback program would not have fallen off of the football map after 1989, and would have been much more competitive sooner, after joining the SEC. Hatfield and his staff knew they were probably leaving after the "89 season, so they eased up on recruiting. That wouldn't have happened if he was going to stay, not to mention it would have provided lots of stability to the program entering the 1990s.
Looking back, the 90s were the worst decade for Razorback football since the 1940s. Only three winning seasons, one .500 season, and SIX losing seasons. That's pretty bad. I feel strongly that that would not have happened if Broyles had not run off Hatfield, and then broken his own rule by hiring a coach that had never been a head coach (Crowe), and he did it just to spite Hatfield, because he took away Ken's offensive coordinator by handing the job to Crowe.

Been10Hog:


--- Quote from: Superhog1959 on March 02, 2019, 08:23:35 am ---Switzer had it made at OU. He could party and do what he wanted. He would never come to Arkansas, Frank, if he did hire him would have made him behave.
For those of you that haven't read Switzers bio, I recommend it. Really good read, lots of fun stories.

--- End quote ---
You can't pair Switzer recruiting and success with Broyles/Hatfield integrity! The two do not mix!

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