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Author Topic: Oaklawn Incompetence  (Read 814 times)

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userpick

Oaklawn Incompetence
« on: February 24, 2019, 03:55:42 pm »

I hate on Oaklawn a lot. And rightfully so. They have the dumbest management of any major track in the country.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/oaklawn-stewards-investigating-whether-ineligible-horse-won-race/
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2019, 04:02:06 pm »

I have been around the race track for a long time but confess I have never heard of anyone who double checks the eligibility of race entries to the conditions.  Did you question it based on Form?  I looked at race and it never occurred to me.

I had a horse win a stakes at LAD where the gate was placed a 1/16th of a mile in front of its scheduled distance.  Not one person associated with the race noticed the error until after the race was run.  Goes to show that (a) nobody notices and (b) somevody should be verifying.
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2019, 04:09:16 pm »

I have been around the race track for a long time but confess I have never heard of anyone who double checks the eligibility of race entries to the conditions.  Did you question it based on Form?  I looked at race and it never occurred to me.

I had a horse win a stakes at LAD where the gate was placed a 1/16th of a mile in front of its scheduled distance.  Not one person associated with the race noticed the error until after the race was run.  Goes to show that (a) nobody notices and (b) somevody should be verifying.

I donít use a racing form so I had no way of catching it. I also know several extremely sharp guys who didnít notice it. Iíve had horses Iíve tried to claim voided because the trainer put the wrong year down. They wonít allow that but they donít have someone to check the entries. Ridiculous. Why they even had a race with that condition is dumb as hell to begin with.
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HawgWild

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2019, 04:53:11 pm »

Sounds like a disqualification to me. Would the trainer be fined as well?
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 04:57:58 pm »

I donít use a racing form so I had no way of catching it. I also know several extremely sharp guys who didnít notice it. Iíve had horses Iíve tried to claim voided because the trainer put the wrong year down. They wonít allow that but they donít have someone to check the entries. Ridiculous. Why they even had a race with that condition is dumb as hell to begin with.

I am guessing racing secretary wrote that race for a particular horse.  Would be interesting if 3 was who he wrote it for.
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songofthesword

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2019, 10:57:31 pm »

I was there and that was one of the two races I hit all day :(
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2019, 08:20:22 am »

When you think about it, gamblers arenít cheated by this.  It is the other owners of the horses in the race that are. 
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2019, 08:27:28 am »

Sounds like a disqualification to me. Would the trainer be fined as well?

Dq would be in order.  Not sure what penalties are available to Racing Commision on this type of infraction.  We know they have suspension powers on drug violations.  Donít know what they get to do for this violation and donít know if trainer can plead honest mistake in defense. 
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holeinthewall

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2019, 08:40:00 am »

Dq would be in order.  Not sure what penalties are available to Racing Commision on this type of infraction.  We know they have suspension powers on drug violations.  Donít know what they get to do for this violation and donít know if trainer can plead honest mistake in defense.

Is it the trainers responsibility to make sure they are entering the horse for an eligible race?  Or the tracks responsibility to make sure the horse is eligible. I would say Oaklawn screwed up and the race should stand and purse money distributed as the race finished.
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2019, 09:15:31 am »

Seriously doubt you can prove that the trainer, or the real trainer of that horse, the owner, entered the horse on purpose knowing the horse wasn't eligible. 

So there shouldn't be any penalty for the trainer / owner, and the purse should be distributed based upon the results.  Oaklawn should eat it the cost if anything of paying out more to 2nd place through whatever because the Stewards didn't catch it. 
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HawgWild

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2019, 09:43:38 am »

Seriously doubt you can prove that the trainer, or the real trainer of that horse, the owner, entered the horse on purpose knowing the horse wasn't eligible. 


How could you not prove it? Aren't trainers given a condition book to use in spotting races for their horses? Shouldn't they know whether or not their horse met the conditions? There's fault on both sides of this but it began when the trainer entered his horse in that race.
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 10:07:09 am »

When you think about it, gamblers arenít cheated by this.  It is the other owners of the horses in the race that are.

Both are cheated by it. Sure you can say a handicapper couldíve/shouldíve noticed it and possibly gained an advantage but itís still negligence by the track. But yes, it screws the owner more.
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 10:08:54 am »

For what itís worth, Danny Caldwell admitted the mistake on twitter. He also said he enters the horses and not his trainer, which I do know to be true.
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 11:08:48 am »

Both are cheated by it. Sure you can say a handicapper couldíve/shouldíve noticed it and possibly gained an advantage but itís still negligence by the track. But yes, it screws the owner more.

How is the gambler cheated?  The information about all horses was available to him to evaluate the race and make an informed decision as to how to bet.  Knowing that the 3 had not run for the claiming tag the year earlier would have had no impact on how I viewed the probable outcome of the race nor would it have adjusted any bet I made.   
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 11:42:14 am »

How is the gambler cheated?  The information about all horses was available to him to evaluate the race and make an informed decision as to how to bet.  Knowing that the 3 had not run for the claiming tag the year earlier would have had no impact on how I viewed the probable outcome of the race nor would it have adjusted any bet I made.   

Doesnít matter how you view the probable outcomes. The horse shouldnít have been allowed to run in the race. The gambler is cheated because the horse will be DQd but the gambler gets the shaft. The industry does not care about the horseplayer and that will ultimately be the downfall of horse racing.
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2019, 11:49:15 am »


How could you not prove it? Aren't trainers given a condition book to use in spotting races for their horses? Shouldn't they know whether or not their horse met the conditions? There's fault on both sides of this but it began when the trainer entered his horse in that race.

I said "on purpose knowing"

The Stewards are going to prove that the trainer / owner on purpose and knowingly entered the horse without meeting the qualifications?  You expect them to prove that how?  What you are saying a common sense approach to the problem, I am talking about proving that the trainer did it on purpose.  That is two completely different things. 

You want to punish the trainer for entering the horse then what are you going to do to the Stewards for missing it?  Honestly mistake and still get penalized in some fashion?  Perhaps.  Knowingly doing it, that is totally different and a different amount of proof than just entering the horse. 
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 11:50:05 am »

For what itís worth, Danny Caldwell admitted the mistake on twitter. He also said he enters the horses and not his trainer, which I do know to be true.

So he let the public know who the real trainer is......
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 11:52:31 am »

So he let the public know who the real trainer is......

Anyone paying attention already knew haha.
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songofthesword

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2019, 03:14:58 pm »

the irony of this is,  there was a stewards objection in that race on Chris and Dave and it was upheld
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2019, 03:37:59 pm »

the irony of this is,  there was a stewards objection in that race on Chris and Dave and it was upheld

Good point. Iím also hearing that because of Arkansas law, nothing will be done about it. Such a crock of shitt.
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2019, 04:18:34 pm »

I do like the fact that Caldwell points out how Stewards / OP accepted the entry and also points out that it was OP that screwed up with a misprint in the condition book lol.  Caldwell like...wellllll screw this, they had to have messed that up, let's enter and see if we get away with it.

ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 04:23:46 pm »

Doesnít matter how you view the probable outcomes. The horse shouldnít have been allowed to run in the race. The gambler is cheated because the horse will be DQd but the gambler gets the shaft. The industry does not care about the horseplayer and that will ultimately be the downfall of horse racing.


Game needs to maintain overall integrity but this doesnít undermine it from a gambling standpoint like using illegal drugs does.   Everything about this horse was out there to see and every gambler who bet was not put at a disadvantage because he ran. 
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 04:27:02 pm »

If you can hold a trainer strictly liable for positive drug tests, you can hold him liable for failing to properly read and interpret condition book.  DQ is the minimum penalty to be imposed.  Whether fine or suspension are also warranted is what should be discussed.  If no DQ, I am suing track for breach of contract if I am 2nd,3rd and 4th place finishers. 

cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2019, 06:10:57 pm »


Game needs to maintain overall integrity but this doesnít undermine it from a gambling standpoint like using illegal drugs does.   Everything about this horse was out there to see and every gambler who bet was not put at a disadvantage because he ran.

Drugs is totally different story.

Strictly focused on this race:

So you think every gambler is equal?  How many you think didnít notice this at all or know absolutely nothing about it but were at OP and bet at least $2 on any other horse in the race or the runner up to win?  Guess what, they all got screwed. 

Every gambler isnít the same, but you need all those $2 per race people just like you need the $100 guy. 

Bettors got screwed.

What I find more interesting is the incompetence of the stewards, and that no other owner, trainer or jockey pointed this out.  How many of them look at a form and nobody said a word?!?!  Which makes me think that Caldwell is right when he blames OP for the incorrect wording in the conditions of the race.
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HawgFan70

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2019, 10:20:44 am »

I'm a big fan of the Caldwell, Villafranco camp I hope its left as is. They entered a horse the stewards had an opportunity to scratch it.
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2019, 11:31:52 am »

I'm a big fan of the Caldwell, Villafranco camp I hope its left as is. They entered a horse the stewards had an opportunity to scratch it.

Itís likely going to be left is, which is a joke. Like Ghost said, the owners got absolutely screwed in this deal. Iíve known Danny for many years and have no problem with him, but this is ridiculous. Ridiculous it wasnít caught, and ridiculous thereís a law that says the result canít be changed.
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2019, 12:12:40 pm »

Drugs is totally different story.

Strictly focused on this race:

So you think every gambler is equal?  How many you think didnít notice this at all or know absolutely nothing about it but were at OP and bet at least $2 on any other horse in the race or the runner up to win?  Guess what, they all got screwed. 

Every gambler isnít the same, but you need all those $2 per race people just like you need the $100 guy. 

Bettors got screwed.

What I find more interesting is the incompetence of the stewards, and that no other owner, trainer or jockey pointed this out.  How many of them look at a form and nobody said a word?!?!  Which makes me think that Caldwell is right when he blames OP for the incorrect wording in the conditions of the race.

In the end, tracks have to work as hard as they can and then some to maintain the appearance that everything is on the up and up.  If owners feel like the track doesn't police its own race conditions, they won't run their horses and that's not something the track can afford (even with the purse sizes Oaklawn is offering).  If gamblers think that horses have hidden, built in advantages (like drugs that pass detection), they won't gamble.   The combination of both of those is deadly to the sport. 

But, and I realize this may be just an academic argument, any gambler who thinks he was screwed because the 3 ran Saturday is just looking for something to complain about.   I doubt any gambler paid close attention to the conditions of the race because, frankly, they were one of those goofy, complicated set of conditions that are, in the end, arbitrary.   No horse was at some advantage in that race because of the condition, in a way that entering a winner against maidens might be.  I don't know of and can't imagine one person who went to the windows on the strength of some info he or she divined from that field and the conditions in it that would have made them ignore the 3.   The pps were there for the public to be able to evaluate the relative abilities of all of the horses, and that's all a gambler can ask for. 

User, I'm not sure what "law" exists that prohibits a dq.  There may be a racing regulation that authorizes dqs but does not cover this situation, which is why the Commission may say it is powerless.  If true, that surprises me and the Commission needs to amend its regs to cover this.  If true, I would file a lawsuit for the also rans saying every race they agree to enter and run is effectively an implied contract that all of the horses that will share in the purse money meet the conditions of the race that Oaklawn breached.       
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2019, 03:55:35 pm »

In the end, tracks have to work as hard as they can and then some to maintain the appearance that everything is on the up and up.  If owners feel like the track doesn't police its own race conditions, they won't run their horses and that's not something the track can afford (even with the purse sizes Oaklawn is offering).  If gamblers think that horses have hidden, built in advantages (like drugs that pass detection), they won't gamble.   The combination of both of those is deadly to the sport. 

But, and I realize this may be just an academic argument, any gambler who thinks he was screwed because the 3 ran Saturday is just looking for something to complain about.   I doubt any gambler paid close attention to the conditions of the race because, frankly, they were one of those goofy, complicated set of conditions that are, in the end, arbitrary.   No horse was at some advantage in that race because of the condition, in a way that entering a winner against maidens might be.  I don't know of and can't imagine one person who went to the windows on the strength of some info he or she divined from that field and the conditions in it that would have made them ignore the 3.   The pps were there for the public to be able to evaluate the relative abilities of all of the horses, and that's all a gambler can ask for. 

User, I'm not sure what "law" exists that prohibits a dq.  There may be a racing regulation that authorizes dqs but does not cover this situation, which is why the Commission may say it is powerless.  If true, that surprises me and the Commission needs to amend its regs to cover this.  If true, I would file a lawsuit for the also rans saying every race they agree to enter and run is effectively an implied contract that all of the horses that will share in the purse money meet the conditions of the race that Oaklawn breached.       

Honestly, dumbfounded at how you donít think bettors didnít get screwed.  Try to make this even sinplier, if you had the runner up to an ineligible horse then didnít you get screwed? Dude, freaking horse won that was ineligible point blank. 

You think or agree thag owners got screwed but not bettors? Couldnít owners have pointed this out and got horse scratched?  They had form, etc. 
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ghostzapper

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2019, 04:54:09 pm »

Honestly, dumbfounded at how you donít think bettors didnít get screwed.  Try to make this even sinplier, if you had the runner up to an ineligible horse then didnít you get screwed? Dude, freaking horse won that was ineligible point blank. 

You think or agree thag owners got screwed but not bettors? Couldnít owners have pointed this out and got horse scratched?  They had form, etc.

Gamblers didnít get screwed because they bet thinking the horse they bet could beat 3.  The fact that he was or was not eligible for the condition had nothing to do with their bet.  In fact, if 3 had not been in race, their odds would have been different and they might not have bet the second place horse.  You just canít claim to have been screwed when the horse won straight up (assuming you agree with stewardsí ruling) and you were betting against him based on your belief that your horse was better.  His not fitting the condition had nothing to do with his win. 
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husker71

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2019, 08:17:21 am »

Delta Downs just had an incident where stewards misread a photo finish an awarded the win to the wrong horse
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holeinthewall

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Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2019, 09:31:03 am »

Delta Downs just had an incident where stewards misread a photo finish an awarded the win to the wrong horse

Are they going to correct it and pay anyone on the horse that was cost the win?  I am guessing most of Delta Downs money is bet on line. Easy remedy
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userpick

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2019, 10:09:33 am »

Are they going to correct it and pay anyone on the horse that was cost the win?  I am guessing most of Delta Downs money is bet on line. Easy remedy

Good luck with that. Racing industry doesnít give two shitts about the bettor.
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cbhawg03

Re: Oaklawn Incompetence
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2019, 02:14:42 pm »

Managed to somehow not equally split Assmussenís horses lol
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