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Author Topic: Bad and Good defense  (Read 1144 times)

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synthartist69

Bad and Good defense
« on: February 06, 2019, 12:07:36 am »

Jumping and flying by a player which allows them to side step and shoot for the easy bucket needs to stop. It happens over and over again, you would think that MA would do something about it. It never works. The good thing I saw tonight is players taking charges. We should be taking even more charges but everyone except gabe and Joe are afraid to do it. A player comes into the lane and we usually jump up, or step to the side and swat at the ball or the player instead of just standing our ground and taking the charge. Start doing that and we can stop a lot of these easy inside basket attempts.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 12:28:45 am »

???

We have a lot of different guys taking charges any given night.

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synthartist69

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 01:02:17 am »

???

We have a lot of different guys taking charges any given night. I see Gabe and Joe and thats about it
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 01:07:03 am »

Watch the end of the game again. You may notice a new one.
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hogball30

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 07:58:35 am »

I think what you are referring to is lack of fundamentals and discipline, which is 100 percent on MA. It is very frustrating as a former basketball player to see the things you mentioned plus other things like not boxing out or setting real screens.

ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 08:59:09 am »

I think what you are referring to is lack of fundamentals and discipline, which is 100 percent on MA. It is very frustrating as a former basketball player to see the things you mentioned plus other things like not boxing out or setting real screens.

Whatever. We are playing very good fundamental defense. When it breaks down is when we trap and the other team is able to swing the ball.

Agree on boxing out but setting real screens is all across college basketball because of rules changes about what the screener can and cannot do. A huge play last night was an illegao pick call late against Vandy.

hobhog

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 09:49:55 am »

Whatever. We are playing very good fundamental defense. When it breaks down is when we trap and the other team is able to swing the ball.

Agree on boxing out but setting real screens is all across college basketball because of rules changes about what the screener can and cannot do. A huge play last night was an illegao pick call late against Vandy.

The pic call and late charge were definitely home cooking. We finally got some calls- fortunately
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hawg66

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 09:52:29 am »

The late call was obvious. Throw your lead arm and youíll get called for it every time. They also called the exact same pick foul on Gabe earlier in the game.

FAABrad

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 10:10:23 am »

Actually the numbers seem to suggest this team plays good team defense as far as shooting percentages go.  They are third in the SEC in FG PCT defense.  Teams are only shooting 40.9% from the field.   Rebounding on the other hand may end up being this teams achilles heel.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 01:02:58 pm »

The pic call and late charge were definitely home cooking. We finally got some calls- fortunately

Neither were home cooking. Toye was continued to move into Jones after setting the pick. Same call was made on Bailey earlier in the game.

Harris got shoved so hard he literally was knocked off his feet.

Me thinks you are just trolling.
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Hogmatic

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 02:08:23 pm »

I think what you are referring to is lack of fundamentals and discipline, which is 100 percent on MA. It is very frustrating as a former basketball player to see the things you mentioned plus other things like not boxing out or setting real screens.

I am so sick of these issues too.  Last night was supposed to be our improved team that has won 4 in a row.  All I saw was a total failure to position, block out, and go for the rebound.  The defense looked better than it really was because Vandy isn't that good and played 4 forwards and 1 guard for quite a while.   The switches, sagging defense that leaves perimeter open and traps have not been fixed.   We shot 58% from field against LSU and beat the 3 worst teams in the Conference.  Fool's Gold. 

FineAsSwine

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 02:23:20 pm »

Judging from these breathless postings, the fire Mike crowd is getting desperate after 4 wins in a row and a top 25 win on the road. Just too much to take for some of these naysayers.

Hogmatic

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 02:27:03 pm »

Judging from these breathless postings, the fire Mike crowd is getting desperate after 4 wins in a row and a top 25 win on the road. Just too much to take for some of these naysayers.

Something tells me we will know who is right after the Bama game.
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BannerMountainMan

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 04:10:29 pm »

I am so sick of these issues too.  Last night was supposed to be our improved team that has won 4 in a row.  All I saw was a total failure to position, block out, and go for the rebound.  The defense looked better than it really was because Vandy isn't that good and played 4 forwards and 1 guard for quite a while.   The switches, sagging defense that leaves perimeter open and traps have not been fixed.   We shot 58% from field against LSU and beat the 3 worst teams in the Conference.  Fool's Gold.
Holy cow youíre bad, I canít wait til we actually start playing good, we outta be world beaters then, because the way we are winning the last 4 games isnít by enough and I am sorry for that.

razorback1829

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 04:42:41 pm »

Judging from these breathless postings, the fire Mike crowd is getting desperate after 4 wins in a row and a top 25 win on the road. Just too much to take for some of these naysayers.

Donít forget to add weíre 40th in defensive efficiency in the country. Doesnít fit the narrative.

ErieHog

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 04:47:07 pm »

I think what you are referring to is lack of fundamentals and discipline, which is 100 percent on MA. It is very frustrating as a former basketball player to see the things you mentioned plus other things like not boxing out or setting real screens.

Its just failing to finish a close out with good footwork;  it happens a lot when you close out hard.

We complain when we allow good three point shooting, and then complain when we try to close out hard.

#OnlyArkansas
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mbgrulz

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 05:45:14 pm »

Lol at some of you. Lots of fail going on here. Iíve heard Brad Stevens in a clinic, and he wants players to close out that way to shooters in certain situations. I guess heís not teaching fundamentals to your liking either. Tennessee switches all ball screens...I guess Barnes is an idiot too. If this team does nothing else, they are playing some damn D. Our Defensive efficiency is WAY UP this year. Defense will never be perfect, but they are busting their tails and CMA deserves credit for it. He deserves criticism for other things, but youíre barking up the wrong tree here.

hawgfan4life

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2019, 09:06:32 pm »

Jumping and flying by a player which allows them to side step and shoot for the easy bucket needs to stop. It happens over and over again, you would think that MA would do something about it. It never works. The good thing I saw tonight is players taking charges. We should be taking even more charges but everyone except gabe and Joe are afraid to do it. A player comes into the lane and we usually jump up, or step to the side and swat at the ball or the player instead of just standing our ground and taking the charge. Start doing that and we can stop a lot of these easy inside basket attempts.

What teams that you watch has players taking close to the number of charges that Arkansas takes and attempts?  Didn't we just win our last two games? 
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hogball30

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2019, 09:34:07 pm »

Whatever. We are playing very good fundamental defense. When it breaks down is when we trap and the other team is able to swing the ball.

Agree on boxing out but setting real screens is all across college basketball because of rules changes about what the screener can and cannot do. A huge play last night was an illegao pick call late against Vandy.

If you have ever ran a run and jump full court press, you understand that there is no excuse for lack of help defense rotation. Even when the press is broken, there are safety valves in place. This is the problem we have...with poor help defense rotation, we give up easy open buckets that shouldnít happen. The same fundamentals apply with a half court trap. There is no excuse for giving up wide open buckets by simply moving the basketball.

New rules have nothing to do with the types of picks we set. Go back and watch film against LSU. Their players will set real, in place, picks with their feet planted. We barely graze defenders in a lack of hustle style.


Just my 2 cents.
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hogball30

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2019, 09:36:15 pm »

Its just failing to finish a close out with good footwork;  it happens a lot when you close out hard.

We complain when we allow good three point shooting, and then complain when we try to close out hard.

#OnlyArkansas

You can absolutely close out without giving away easy buckets. When you leave your feet to try to block a 3-ball, especially when the ball handler still has his dribble, you are doing no good. Thatís junior high fundamentals.

How many times will you attempt to block a 3-ball and succeed?
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Hogmatic

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2019, 09:44:29 pm »

If you have ever ran a run and jump full court press, you understand that there is no excuse for lack of help defense rotation. Even when the press is broken, there are safety valves in place. This is the problem we have...with poor help defense rotation, we give up easy open buckets that shouldnít happen. The same fundamentals apply with a half court trap. There is no excuse for giving up wide open buckets by simply moving the basketball.

New rules have nothing to do with the types of picks we set. Go back and watch film against LSU. Their players will set real, in place, picks with their feet planted. We barely graze defenders in a lack of hustle style.


Just my 2 cents.

The coach should be correcting these issues during pre-season camp and up through December.  There is no good reason for the players to be allowed to continue to do it wrong until we enter SEC play and crater.  The casual fan thinks everything is great during Nov and Dec as we win but the wins are against 80% cupcakes.  The offense and defense problems impact the team when we go up against good SEC teams.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 10:36:41 pm »

If you have ever ran a run and jump full court press, you understand that there is no excuse for lack of help defense rotation. Even when the press is broken, there are safety valves in place. This is the problem we have...with poor help defense rotation, we give up easy open buckets that shouldnít happen. The same fundamentals apply with a half court trap. There is no excuse for giving up wide open buckets by simply moving the basketball.

New rules have nothing to do with the types of picks we set. Go back and watch film against LSU. Their players will set real, in place, picks with their feet planted. We barely graze defenders in a lack of hustle style.


Just my 2 cents.

If that's 2 cents worth then I expect some change back.

You know just enough to get in trouble. No one runs picks like Bobby Knight did exactly because the rule changes have made a risky proposition to do. It's not just us and LSU doesn't predicate their offense on screens and cuts. I am sure they set A screen or two like everyone else does but give it a break.

Pressing and trapping are high risk high reward philosophies. If they were safe by just having safety valves  if you are trapping aggressively there are no strategies or rotations to consistently overcome 4 on 3 odds after the ball is ahead of two of your defenders.

The way trapping works to keep that from happening is to put extreme pressure on the ball handler so that they cannot see all the opportunities ahead of them. If you do it correctly the next pass will be to avoid pressure, often in the opposite direction of the goal. Then the defense can properly recover. If you don't pressure hard then you will get picked apart.

Also, close outs at the collegiate level are way different than Jr high. A lot depends on who is being closed out on  Isaiah Joe  doesn't like to dribble into his shots. Close out on him without elevating and you can count the bucket. Also a lot of marksmen don't create for themselves, it only makes sense to turn them into drivers funneling them towards Gafford.

College basketball isn't a one size fits all affair. Scouting tendencies and applied analytics have as much to do with things as fundamentals do anymore.

hogball30

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 10:55:35 pm »

If that's 2 cents worth then I expect some change back.

You know just enough to get in trouble. No one runs picks like Bobby Knight did exactly because the rule changes have made a risky proposition to do. It's not just us and LSU doesn't predicate their offense on screens and cuts. I am sure they set A screen or two like everyone else does but give it a break.

Pressing and trapping are high risk high reward philosophies. If they were safe by just having safety valves  if you are trapping aggressively there are no strategies or rotations to consistently overcome 4 on 3 odds after the ball is ahead of two of your defenders.

The way trapping works to keep that from happening is to put extreme pressure on the ball handler so that they cannot see all the opportunities ahead of them. If you do it correctly the next pass will be to avoid pressure, often in the opposite direction of the goal. Then the defense can properly recover. If you don't pressure hard then you will get picked apart.

Also, close outs at the collegiate level are way different than Jr high. A lot depends on who is being closed out on  Isaiah Joe  doesn't like to dribble into his shots. Close out on him without elevating and you can count the bucket. Also a lot of marksmen don't create for themselves, it only makes sense to turn them into drivers funneling them towards Gafford.

College basketball isn't a one size fits all affair. Scouting tendencies and applied analytics have as much to do with things as fundamentals do anymore.

Your jokes are amusing.

I know enough because I actually have ran this same style full court press. Have you ever actually ran and executed a run and jump full court press? You are correct about one thing...full court press can yield high rewards but if ran correctly, the risk should be minimal...if players rotate correctly and hustle in help defense. I do agree with you about pressure on the ball...but if the rest of the system is not in place, none of it matters.

I am not asking anyone to run Bobby Knight style picks. I am asking for our players to have attention to detail and execute fundamentals which is completely lost in the nature of this highlight reel mentality. Itís called being lazy. How to set a LEGAL pick has nothing to do with being risky, it has to do with being sound.

I also disagree with your closeout mentality. If you never leave your feet, you have a better chance to defend the shot fake and penetration. Two things will happened when you jump at a 3-ball at close out...1. You will miss and fly by which does nothing. 2. You will foul the shooter on the 3. This has nothing to do with JR high skill per day, it has to do with skills you learn in JR high. You can close out without jumping, you stick a hand in his face. Look, you arenít blocking his shot anyway, thatís not the goal.

Obviously we have a different basketball philosophy. But, in this case, we won this game with a last second 3 ball against an 0-8 SEC Vandy team and we will be lucky to make the NIT with the caliber of game we are playing.

Again, my 2 cents.
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razorback1829

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2019, 10:59:47 pm »

Your jokes are amusing.

I know enough because I actually have ran this same style full court press. Have you ever actually ran and executed a run and jump full court press? You are correct about one thing...full court press can yield high rewards but if ran correctly, the risk should be minimal...if players rotate correctly and hustle in help defense.

I am not asking anyone to run Bobby Knight style picks. I am asking for our players to have attention to detail and execute fundamentals which is completely lost in the nature of this highlight reel mentality. Itís called being lazy. How to set a LEGAL pick has nothing to do with being risky, it has to do with being sound.

I also disagree with your closeout mentality. If you never leave your feet, you have a better chance to defend the shot fake and penetration. Two things will happened when you jump at a 3-ball at close out...1. You will miss and fly by which does nothing. 2. You will foul the shooter on the 3. This has nothing to do with JR high skill per day, it has to do with skills you learn in JR high. You can close out without jumping, you stick a hand in his face. Look, you arenít blocking his shot anyway, thatís not the goal.

Obviously we have a different basketball philosophy. But, in this case, we won this game with a last second 3 ball against an 0-8 SEC Vandy team and we will be lucky to make the NIT with the caliber of game we are playing. If you are good with that, then so be it.

Again, my 2 cents.

Other people have players too. This is high level basketball. Youíre going to get beat some regardless. Thatís the nature of the game. Some of it is give and take. Thereís no one or right way to do it perfectly. The players are taught to close out which they actually do at a very good level.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2019, 03:51:43 am »

Your jokes are amusing.

I know enough because I actually have ran this same style full court press. Have you ever actually ran and executed a run and jump full court press? You are correct about one thing...full court press can yield high rewards but if ran correctly, the risk should be minimal...if players rotate correctly and hustle in help defense. I do agree with you about pressure on the ball...but if the rest of the system is not in place, none of it matters.

I am not asking anyone to run Bobby Knight style picks. I am asking for our players to have attention to detail and execute fundamentals which is completely lost in the nature of this highlight reel mentality. Itís called being lazy. How to set a LEGAL pick has nothing to do with being risky, it has to do with being sound.

I also disagree with your closeout mentality. If you never leave your feet, you have a better chance to defend the shot fake and penetration. Two things will happened when you jump at a 3-ball at close out...1. You will miss and fly by which does nothing. 2. You will foul the shooter on the 3. This has nothing to do with JR high skill per day, it has to do with skills you learn in JR high. You can close out without jumping, you stick a hand in his face. Look, you arenít blocking his shot anyway, thatís not the goal.

Obviously we have a different basketball philosophy. But, in this case, we won this game with a last second 3 ball against an 0-8 SEC Vandy team and we will be lucky to make the NIT with the caliber of game we are playing.

Again, my 2 cents.

I actually played juco ball against high D1 players. If you think there is a generic closeout then I don't know what to tell you. 6'5" shooting guards aren't phased by anyone their size or shorter running at them, breaking down, and then defending. They got the shot off during the running at them part. Have you ever played against D1 talent? If so, you know how quick the releases on their shots are and you also know that just about any of those guys are knock down shooters without some sort of distraction.

Also, if you think you can run a press with minimal risk, then you aren't actually pressing. You are simply slowing the progress of the ball up the court using an extended defense that looks for an opportunity to trap but isn't an aggressive, look for a reason not to trap, all out pressure defense. Not the same at all.

If you are selling out to force turnovers and pace, then risk is HIGH.
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Hogmatic

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2019, 08:08:52 pm »

This is highly relevant again after a poor 3 pt shooting team had a big night against us.
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ErieHog

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2019, 08:10:00 pm »

This is highly relevant again after a poor 3 pt shooting team had a big night against us.

Only to people who want to full court press Mike out of a job.

It isn't working, while our defense is.
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Hogmatic

Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2019, 08:11:05 pm »

Only to people who want to full court press Mike out of a job.

It isn't working, while our defense is.

Mike = Houston Nutt
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ErieHog

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2019, 08:13:57 pm »

Mike = Houston Nutt

Not just silly, but program damaging thinking.   About what I expected
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raz1965

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Re: Bad and Good defense
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2019, 08:25:18 pm »

The one thing I can say on this is the fact that ever game played has a loser an fault can always be found in the loseing team, its diffuclt to play a  game even close to perfect, all teams have faults in areas, this team being young has many faults of different sorts on different games. A disappointing game that in my opinion was lost due to lack of focus in the end with poor decisions being made at crucial times.
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