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Author Topic: Mike doesnít develop players?  (Read 1921 times)

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BannerMountainMan

Mike doesnít develop players?
« on: January 19, 2019, 09:09:53 pm »

Moses Kingsley-very raw to SEC preseason player of the year.

Manny Watkins- walk-on to very valuable player

Trey Thompson- limited big, no way he plays important minutes the first two years to us saying we wish he wouldíve redshirted his freshman year so he could play now.

Daryl Macon- JUCO rout- and now he just scored his first points in the NBA tonight

Jaylen Barford- JUCO rout- averaging 20 in G League, probably going to have just of good a career in the NBA as Monk, Goodwin for sure

Jalen Harris-  1 assist a game, averaging 10 minutes at NM- #3 in the nation in assist/turnover ratio this year.

Coty Clarke- Community College- to averaging 10+ in Euro League, played in multiple NBA games in 2015-2016 season

Kiko Haydar- Walk-on to very viable bench player his senior year

Arlando Cook, Jabril Durham, Rashad Madden, Alandise Harris, and many more are having good careers overseas.

As I said, developing players is not the problem, his recruiting is. I donít understand where people get that he cannot develop players but I hear it all the time.

Daniel Gafford also went from a guy not even touching the draft boards last year to sky rocketing to the 1st round.

Bobby Portis was not talked about at all compared to Monk but Portis was starting to start before he got his injury this year.
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The_Iceman

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 09:12:44 pm »

Look at all the players that so called "developed." Check their per 40 numbers as a freshman and throughout their career. You will notice it stays relatively the same.

So they aren't developing as much as they are just getting more minutes.

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26.2Hog

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 09:13:05 pm »

Regardless, he doesn't get us in the top 25, much less keep us there.

jst01

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 09:18:13 pm »

Dude... you are lost. When you bring out Haydar for defense of Mike, itís not good

BannerMountainMan

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 09:24:19 pm »

Dude... you are lost. When you bring out Haydar for defense of Mike, itís not good
And that is why? When you go from shooting .077 from your sophmore year to shooting 39% and 43% from three your junior and senior season and averaging 15 minutes a game seems pretty good to me.
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RazorPiggie

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 09:38:27 pm »

My Gosh youíre starting to act like FCJ.

HogsonHicks

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 09:43:41 pm »

Your full court defense of MA is impressive. Maybe you should coach D for us.

hobhog

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 10:45:32 pm »

His job is to win games. He hadnít done enough of that.

raz1965

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 11:26:47 pm »

The guy pointed out facts, players have gotten better under Anderson, lot of things are myths concerning Mike, but he has not met expectations, excuses be darned is the census, but give Mike credit where due without jumping down someone's throat for stating a fact. Mike is a great person an should he be replaced he will have plenty of positives on his resume moving forward.

SnoutSays

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 12:40:21 am »

Most of those guys have a history of working hard on their own.  They have internal drive.  They more developed their game as a habit developed long before stepping on the court for the UA.  They are true Type A personalities when it comes to obsessiveness with their own skill development.

I'll give Anderson credit for taking them, but that is a very short list vs the 70+ players that have had to come through in his tenure.

maxhog5

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 01:33:44 am »

For 8 years on the job, that is a pretty pathetic list.

Champs04

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 07:09:15 am »

Everycollege player that comes in should get better as they get older, They are young kids in the beginning. Don't give him to much credit for that.

sevenof400

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 07:27:46 am »

BannerMountainMan

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 09:21:52 am »

So let me get this straight. If they get better then itís because they work hard on their own time? Even though you know nothing about the situation. Man all yíall do is throw out opinions.
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sevenof400

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 09:24:40 am »

So let me get this straight. If they get better then itís because they work hard on their own time? Even though you know nothing about the situation. Man all yíall do is throw out opinions.

It's already been stated that a coach of Anderson's length of tenure should have a LOT more entries in this column but some of the things you note (viable player, success in G League) does not really help the record at Arkansas. 

Boardon Hamsay

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:00 am »

I guess itís fair to say then that in 5 of 8 years, at least 68 coaches developed his players at a higher level than MA?

Hogmatic

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2019, 10:10:55 am »

So let me get this straight. If they get better then itís because they work hard on their own time? Even though you know nothing about the situation. Man all yíall do is throw out opinions.

Did you know that the players DO work on Free Throws on their own?  After practice.  How much other aspects are the players doing it by themselves?

hog of steele

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2019, 10:37:53 am »

There is a thing we do. Not us as fans but us as humans. If we don't like something we tend to see it as all bad. Every person is a mixed bag. There is some good and some bad.

So folks who really believe he should be fired aren't willing to acknowledge that we have seen players improve in their time here. They are afraid if they acknowledge some good traits it will mean he should stay. Obviously, developing players is one skill and just having it does not make you a good head coach.

I hope CMA makes it. I like him. Its looking more and more doubtful but I hope he gets it going.

Hawg Red

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 10:47:00 am »

First of all, waaaay too much credit being given to the head coach for player development. These guys work on their games on their own as well as what they get out of the program. But we know for certain rebounding, free throw shooting, offensive plays, and sound defensive philosophy are NOT coached into the players under this staff. Ball-handling also does not appear to be a focus. So how are we giving Mike Anderson all this credit? Especially for the one season of Daniel Gafford. You are acting like he touched the kid and he just magically became an NBA prospect whe the truth of the matter was DG has always NBA length and athleticism, and drew interest from some really good coaches before committing to Arkansas super early. That is what kept him off mock drafts,  not that he needed Mike Andersonís mystical development.

But letís entertain this notion that Mike Anderson has a heavy hand in developing these players. So you are telling me heís great at developing players.....but hasnít gotten out of the second round in 8 years and couldnít even hang with a 10-seed Butler team with an NCAA rookie head coach. So.....he can develop them but not.....coach them? Which is it?

hog of steele

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2019, 10:50:31 am »

But letís entertain this notion that Mike Anderson has a heavy hand in developing these players. So you are telling me heís great at developing players.....but hasnít gotten out of the second round in 8 years and couldnít even hang with a 10-seed Butler team with an NCAA rookie head coach. So.....he can develop them but not.....coach them? Which is it?

ignoring your sarcasm, isn't this statement true? Doesn't that seem to be what it is? Players come here and are getting better individually but he isn't coaching them in games. He isn't putting in winning strategies. He isn't motivating them to go out and put together high level performances.

He can be good at one aspect of coaching but not good enough to win at the top level.

Hoggish1

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2019, 10:50:51 am »

Moses Kingsley-very raw to SEC preseason player of the year.

Manny Watkins- walk-on to very valuable player

Trey Thompson- limited big, no way he plays important minutes the first two years to us saying we wish he wouldíve redshirted his freshman year so he could play now.

Daryl Macon- JUCO rout- and now he just scored his first points in the NBA tonight

Jaylen Barford- JUCO rout- averaging 20 in G League, probably going to have just of good a career in the NBA as Monk, Goodwin for sure

Jalen Harris-  1 assist a game, averaging 10 minutes at NM- #3 in the nation in assist/turnover ratio this year.

Coty Clarke- Community College- to averaging 10+ in Euro League, played in multiple NBA games in 2015-2016 season

Kiko Haydar- Walk-on to very viable bench player his senior year

Arlando Cook, Jabril Durham, Rashad Madden, Alandise Harris, and many more are having good careers overseas.

As I said, developing players is not the problem, his recruiting is. I donít understand where people get that he cannot develop players but I hear it all the time.

Daniel Gafford also went from a guy not even touching the draft boards last year to sky rocketing to the 1st round.

Bobby Portis was not talked about at all compared to Monk but Portis was starting to start before he got his injury this year.

NOW LETS TALK ABOUT DEVELOPING teams... OK?

SnoutSays

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 10:53:24 am »

NOW LETS TALK ABOUT DEVELOPING teams... OK?
You mean like help defense, running sets and learning how to counteract another teams moves?

Sorry, no one home.   ;D

Hawg Red

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2019, 11:10:46 am »

ignoring your sarcasm, isn't this statement true? Doesn't that seem to be what it is? Players come here and are getting better individually but he isn't coaching them in games. He isn't putting in winning strategies. He isn't motivating them to go out and put together high level performances.

He can be good at one aspect of coaching but not good enough to win at the top level.

My argument is that he is not truly developing them because he isnít developing the winning aspects of a player. They donít often know how to box out, so we give up a ton of O-boards. There often arenít but 1-2 decent ballhandlers on a given roster. They arenít becoming smarter offensive players or defenders because they arenít being coached in anything other than the most basic of ways. So we have players whose scoring average goes up. We have players who get incrementally better in various raw counting stats. But thatís not coaching development. Thatís likely just increased usage and familiarity with being on the court at the SEC level.

Iím honestly not sure what aspect of coaching heís legitimately good or very good at. Like most coaches, he does fairly well when he has an experienced team. Unlike truly good coaches, he has not been able to parlay that into postseason success. But, based on his track record, we have to admit that heís a good regular season coach. But Iíd argue that if he were truly developing players, weíd have seen a S16 by now because he really has brought in some good players. They werenít coached or developed to be able to make a tournament run, though.

Smithian

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2019, 11:15:02 am »

Look at all the players that so called "developed." Check their per 40 numbers as a freshman and throughout their career. You will notice it stays relatively the same.

So they aren't developing as much as they are just getting more minutes.
Come on, man. I know you're beating the anti-Mike drum pretty hard right now, but that is weak.

Guys like Manny Watkins, Michael Qualls, and Moses Kingsley improved by leaps and bounds. Guys who stick around become much better players.

Which, again, makes disastrous roster management and poor recruiting so much more frustrating. It would be nice to see a full bench of developed players versus the roster churn we do have.
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hog of steele

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2019, 11:22:56 am »

My argument is that he is not truly developing them because ...

Anything that follows that is guaranteed to be a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

If you want to redefine what player development means away from "gets better" toward "wins more games" then that is fine.

Its a weird way to talk about individual players but I agree that this team and other CMA teams don't seem to win as many games as I would like.
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cardsNhogs

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2019, 11:31:17 am »

Individual players development depends alot on that player putting in extra work on his own time getting up shots and etc.. What we need is a coach to put the team in best possible position to succeed when the game is played! We still switch every ball screen resulting in mismatches, late closeouts on shooter, struggle rebounding, stand around too often on offense with very little sets, very little preparation for each opponent and no in game adjustments, and the list goes on and on!

It's time for a change because Mike isn't changing !
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hawgfan4life

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2019, 12:03:18 pm »

Moses Kingsley-very raw to SEC preseason player of the year.

Manny Watkins- walk-on to very valuable player

Trey Thompson- limited big, no way he plays important minutes the first two years to us saying we wish he wouldíve redshirted his freshman year so he could play now.

Daryl Macon- JUCO rout- and now he just scored his first points in the NBA tonight

Jaylen Barford- JUCO rout- averaging 20 in G League, probably going to have just of good a career in the NBA as Monk, Goodwin for sure

Jalen Harris-  1 assist a game, averaging 10 minutes at NM- #3 in the nation in assist/turnover ratio this year.

Coty Clarke- Community College- to averaging 10+ in Euro League, played in multiple NBA games in 2015-2016 season

Kiko Haydar- Walk-on to very viable bench player his senior year

Arlando Cook, Jabril Durham, Rashad Madden, Alandise Harris, and many more are having good careers overseas.

As I said, developing players is not the problem, his recruiting is. I donít understand where people get that he cannot develop players but I hear it all the time.

Daniel Gafford also went from a guy not even touching the draft boards last year to sky rocketing to the 1st round.

Bobby Portis was not talked about at all compared to Monk but Portis was starting to start before he got his injury this year.

I have defended MA against the radical posters and I would agree that it is absurd for those to post that MA doesn't develop players.  However, your point focuses on one aspect of the overall criticism these haters have against MA.  Likewise, if those individuals argued his development wasn't adequate for the level of where we want the program to exist, then it would be hard to debate those critiques.  MA's issue is not that he doesn't develop players.  Clearly he does.  His problems is that the players, despite their development, do not play at a high level consistent enough to maintain the high level of success that fans expect and deserve.  It seems we don't have enough talent on our roster to achieve this consistently as well.  In short, the bottom line is winning enough total games, enough pivotal games, amount of post season appearances, and degree of post season success.  Fans expect coaches to develop players.  MA deserves no credit for doing so.  Fans expect the program to win most of their games and get into postseason tournaments.  MA deserves no credit for those things.  In the areas MA is measured, he is not achieving at the level of expectation.  Despite losing to North Carolina a couple of years ago, MA was given credit for the team's late season finish and the level in which they played in the NCAA Tournament.  Only true haters found a lot to Briticism after that season.  However, the roller coaster ride the following season gave ammunition to those same haters and those who were not sold on MA.  Losing in the first round to a team we should have expected to be able to beat in such a bad manner was unacceptable.  While I think it absurd to use year 8 as any kind of argument against MA, I also understand that there should be a certain level of stability within a program after a certain number of years.  Having a rebuilding year this season is not an issue.  Having a lack of upper classmen to lead the team is a reflection of roster management.  Losing at home to teams we should expect to beat with our talent is a problem.  Right now it looks like the season is going to be a complete disaster.  That ultimately falls on the HC and his staff.  I am all for letting the season play out.  I am not opposed to riding our another few years with MA to see if he keeps trending up as he steadily has since his arrival.  However, he has to get this season turned around and finish on a strong note, winning more than he loses from now until the end and he has to get the team being competitive in the losses.  Getting blown out by about 20 isn't going to get it done.  Cherry picking facts doesn't sway anyone and it shouldn't.  Wins and Losses and how the team is playing is ultimately going to do that.
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Hawg Red

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2019, 01:48:57 pm »

Anything that follows that is guaranteed to be a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

If you want to redefine what player development means away from "gets better" toward "wins more games" then that is fine.

Its a weird way to talk about individual players but I agree that this team and other CMA teams don't seem to win as many games as I would like.

No one can define player development in absolute terms because itís a subjective measure. Thus my preface of ďmy argument is...Ē Unless someone wants to lay out an in-depth assessment how these players actually developed under Anderson and how we can definitively attribute that to the coach(es).  Qualls surely developed from start to finish. But how do I truth that Anderson had much to do with that when I just canít see, over a 7.5 year run, real development in most players that play for Arkansas? Most players arenít good ballhandlers in this program. How do I trust that Mike Anderson is responsible for that when I donít see it in other backcourt/wing players that need improvement there?

Iím sure Mike and staff have helped players on some level. I just think there is enough evidence to suggest that they maybe arenít the primary reason why a player developed. And the true winning aspects of a player/team definitely arenít front and center with the product heís putting out. Heís put 1.5 players in the NBA in 8 years. Bobby Portis, who does not seem to be very fond of the development he received, and Daryl Macon on a two-way contract. Not buying this guy as a great developer of talent.

ArkansasI

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2019, 02:41:22 pm »

The greatest condemnation of Mike happened when Malik Monk signed with Kentucky.  Arkansas had everything but the coach. Malik knows the coach better than anyone here, and left home.

BannerMountainMan

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2019, 02:53:31 pm »

The greatest condemnation of Mike happened when Malik Monk signed with Kentucky.  Arkansas had everything but the coach. Malik knows the coach better than anyone here, and left home.
And that got him where?? He got worse at Kentucky, thereís no way he should be a G League/middle of the bench player in the NBA right now
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hawgfan4life

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2019, 05:08:55 pm »

The greatest condemnation of Mike happened when Malik Monk signed with Kentucky.  Arkansas had everything but the coach. Malik knows the coach better than anyone here, and left home.

That is total B.S.  Arkansas isn't anywhere close to comparing to the elite programs anymore.  We were once in the discussion, but even then we weren't anymore than that - in the discussion.  Monk went to KY because of business, and that is the exact reason MA has lost several other recruits or failed to land many elite recruits.  AR missed the boat trying to remain a clean program while the NCAA looked the other way while coaches and programs allowed elite players to be steered to certain coaches and programs.  MA is suffering greatly for that fact.  There are at least two coaches and schools in the SEC West that are 100% proof of this fact.  Monk going to KY was about the "Monk Brand" and how his agent believed it would be increased by going to KY.
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3kgthog

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2019, 05:16:26 pm »

All I care about is the win column translating to postseason success. That hasnít happened and Iím now a former member of the Mike fan club.

You can keep your walk-on development.

Hogimus Prime

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2019, 05:52:59 pm »

All I care about is the win column translating to postseason success. That hasnít happened and Iím now a former member of the Mike fan club.

You can keep your walk-on development.

One walk-on development caused a player to transfer
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The_Iceman

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Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2019, 07:44:25 pm »

Come on, man. I know you're beating the anti-Mike drum pretty hard right now, but that is weak.

Guys like Manny Watkins, Michael Qualls, and Moses Kingsley improved by leaps and bounds. Guys who stick around become much better players.

Which, again, makes disastrous roster management and poor recruiting so much more frustrating. It would be nice to see a full bench of developed players versus the roster churn we do have.

I have posted the per 40 minute production each year for Manny, Moses, and Qualls below.

Hogmatic

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2019, 09:47:24 pm »

Show me which players have gotten better this year.  Jalen Harris, Isaiah Joe, Gafford, and Jones have gotten worse, because the scheme isn't working and mike isn't fixing it with in-game adjustments.   Jalen Harris is trying to do too much now that the scheme is getting wrecked so players aren't playing together.  The offense is just like the last 2 years with Macon and Barford - all motion but no method.  Isaiah Joe, Gafford, and Jones have been trying to do too as well, so players are not where they are supposed to be.  Harris and Sills have thrown balls to spots where there were NO players.  The guys are not on the same page about the offense and where they are responsible. 

ArkansasI

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2019, 10:31:18 pm »

That is total B.S.  Arkansas isn't anywhere close to comparing to the elite programs anymore.  We were once in the discussion, but even then we weren't anymore than that - in the discussion.  Monk went to KY because of business, and that is the exact reason MA has lost several other recruits or failed to land many elite recruits.  AR missed the boat trying to remain a clean program while the NCAA looked the other way while coaches and programs allowed elite players to be steered to certain coaches and programs.  MA is suffering greatly for that fact.  There are at least two coaches and schools in the SEC West that are 100% proof of this fact.  Monk going to KY was about the "Monk Brand" and how his agent believed it would be increased by going to KY.

So, if you knew the head basketball coach as well as Malik knows Mike, and he recruited you as hard as Mike recruited Malik... Mike took the whole team to one of Malik's games, gave Malik's brother a job, and who knows what else. After Mike worked so hard, Malik committed to a conference rival. He didn't even show enough courtesy to leave the conference.

That is cold. Ice cold.

Mike could have shown Malik that Kentucky doesn't guaranty a better opportunity - Archie didn't benefit from it at all.  Malik would have been a rock star in Fayetteville. A hero.  That was not so readily available at Kentucky.

You've got to win a few battles against your rivals if you ever expect to compete. What is Mike's reputation among recruits if he can't reel in Malik?

I love the man, but have no faith in the coach.

checkraiser88

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2019, 11:16:17 pm »

Has he developed Bailey any? He's regressed every year. We can easily put up a list of players he hasn't developed/or transferred out.

BannerMountainMan

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2019, 12:50:50 am »

Has he developed Bailey any? He's regressed every year. We can easily put up a list of players he hasn't developed/or transferred out.
Cant get better if you leave the first year knowing youíll get more playing time the next year.
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HogBreath

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2019, 06:09:41 am »

The case of JaCorey Williams certainly stands out, spent three seasons here, pretty much all non descript, transferred to MTSU, sits out a year, then became their conference player of the year.
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nwahogfan1

Re: Mike doesnít develop players?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2019, 08:29:14 am »

College Players work on their offensive game on their own or should but coaches work on team development like team defense, rebounding, presses, schemes and offensive sets.   I don't think any one out there who likes to watch fundamentals will accuse Mike of over coaching these.
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