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Author Topic: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002  (Read 1372 times)

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Razorfox

State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« on: January 11, 2019, 12:40:42 pm »

I am framing this discussion all the way back to 2002, which was when Nolan Richardson left as HC.  In some ways, I think you could consider the last 17 years as "the latest era in Razorback basketball".  It also allows us to look beyond any single coach's tenure so as not to get us in trouble with the board moderators. 

Anyway, what I wanted to evaluate was our success by final rankings (AP Poll).  Since 2002 (again, 17 years), Arkansas has only had ONE Top 25 finish in basketball, in 2015 (6% of the seasons).  And it was #21.  In the same timeframe, let's look at us compared to the rest of the SEC:

Kentucky - 11 (high of #1)
Florida - 11 (high of #1)
Tennessee - 5 (high of #5)
TX A&M - 4 (high of #9)
Missouri - 3 (high of #3)
MS State - 3 (high of #8)
Alabama - 2 (high of #8)
LSU - 2 (high of #19)
Georgia - 2 (high of #23)
Auburn - 1 (high of #19)
Arkansas - 1 (high of #21)
South Carolina - 1 (high of #23)
Ole Miss - none
Vandy - none

So, by this standard, we are the 11th most successful program in the SEC, which isn't exactly known as a super basketball conference either. 

How does Arkansas stack up to the NCAA as a whole by this measure?
Sadly we are tied at #87 with Houston and Providence

What about historical context comparing ourselves between 1949 and 2002?
We were ranked 19th with a high of #1 and finished ranked 28% of those years. 
 

Anyway, I'm not sure why I did this other than to address the discussion of apathy with the program.  It's hard to keep excitement levels of a Top 10-20 program (why we build BWA and have the expectations we do) when you barely maintain a Top 100 level program.  Personally, I've tried to maintain my own excitement, but it's very difficult, especially as an out-of-stater.  Can it change?  Or has it become so ingrained now within the culture and our place in the basketball world that there is no return? 

Source: http://www.collegepollarchive.com

revolution

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 12:47:24 pm »

We haven't been really good since Nolan's best years.  MA is the best coach we've had since Nolan, but he still hasn't delivered the success that fans hope for and many expect (consistent NCAA tournament success).

Perhaps the majority is beginning to believe that MA will never deliver on Hog fans hopes and expectations.  I believe if MA doesn't make the Sweet 16 this year or next, he will be gone!  I could support him being let go this year if Arkansas doesn't make the tournament and win a game, and IF THERE IS A PROVEN WINNER WHO IS WILLING TO TAKE OVER THE PROGRAM.  I do think that our athletic administration should be quietly preparing to find a proven, competent coach who can take this program back to national relevance.
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sigpooie

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 12:59:15 pm »

This is what spoiled us.. Damn shame we can't have players and coaches at the same time to hit those old levels. Does show that we can return and start a new set of records.. right?
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The_Iceman

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 01:16:20 pm »

I'd like to know this: since Mike Anderson has been head coach (or heck to make it better for him, let's say last 5 years), where does Arkansas rank nationally in weeks ranked in the Top 25?
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hogwood

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 01:21:03 pm »

Sad (19th>87th). Mike has been great at stabilizing the program. We consistently win now, at least. It seems we get a little momentum every year, bit by bit... We needed a dedicated coach like him whose dream job it was to coach here in order to do that. Now that that has been accomplished, I'm open. But we need to find the right coach. It will likely have to be an up and comer, so a search committee would have to be really thorough. We could sink back and start all over again with the wrong hire. That said, I am a big fan of Mike and am hoping he brings the success we all expect to this program before the lack of results leaves no other option.

NaturalStateReb

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 01:35:59 pm »

Mike Anderson right now kind of reminds me of where Andy Kennedy was at Ole Miss.  He's delivered stability and is well liked, but he's been around about a decade, delivered about 20 wins consistently, and that's about it.  At some point, you just have to acknowledge that the program is pretty much treading water and there's no reason to believe that a major surge is on its way.

Fan701

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 01:38:17 pm »

On the other hand, since end of season 2012 only Kentucky and Florida have been ranked more than once at season's end.  We are tied in the SEC for third place since 2012 with one post-season ranking in that period.  Between 2000 and 2014 we never ended a season ranked.  None of this is good, but it's misleading to suggest that the rest of the league has been putting us to shame in recent years (other than Florida and Kentucky).  The SEC has mostly been down for a while, upticks last year and perhaps this year.

Razorfox

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 02:04:27 pm »

On the other hand, since end of season 2012 only Kentucky and Florida have been ranked more than once at season's end.  We are tied in the SEC for third place since 2012 with one post-season ranking in that period.  Between 2000 and 2014 we never ended a season ranked.  None of this is good, but it's misleading to suggest that the rest of the league has been putting us to shame in recent years (other than Florida and Kentucky).  The SEC has mostly been down for a while, upticks last year and perhaps this year.

True, but this is also why I put how we've been doing nationally as well.  Not so good. 

PonderinHog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2019, 02:18:13 pm »

How can South Carolina's highest final ranking only be #23?

Fan701

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 02:37:51 pm »

How can South Carolina's highest final ranking only be #23?
I'm surprised they were ranked at all.  SC flopped at the end of that season.  We had just beaten them in Columbia.  They had lost 6 of their last 9 games, including their SEC tournament game, but yet they ended the season ranked and we didn't.  Go figure.

Of course, they then get a super draw for the tourney and go all the way to the Final Four.
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PonderinHog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 02:49:48 pm »

I'm surprised they were ranked at all.  SC flopped at the end of that season.  We had just beaten them in Columbia.  They had lost 6 of their last 9 games, including their SEC tournament game, but yet they ended the season ranked and we didn't.  Go figure.

Of course, they then get a super draw for the tourney and go all the way to the Final Four.
Isn't the final ranking after the FF?  I thought it was, anyway.  Guess not.

Razorfox

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 03:32:43 pm »

How can South Carolina's highest final ranking only be #23?

I'm not sure what year that was from.  That was simply the highest rank they ended the season at between 2002 and 2019. 
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PonderinHog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 03:38:33 pm »

I'm not sure what year that was from.  That was simply the highest rank they ended the season at between 2002 and 2019.
Yeah, no big deal.
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Fan701

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 03:46:54 pm »

I'm not sure what year that was from.  That was simply the highest rank they ended the season at between 2002 and 2019.
SC finished ranked #23 in 2004, not ranked at all at end of 2017.
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Superhog1959

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 03:53:51 pm »

I am framing this discussion all the way back to 2002, which was when Nolan Richardson left as HC.  In some ways, I think you could consider the last 17 years as "the latest era in Razorback basketball".  It also allows us to look beyond any single coach's tenure so as not to get us in trouble with the board moderators. 

Anyway, what I wanted to evaluate was our success by final rankings (AP Poll).  Since 2002 (again, 17 years), Arkansas has only had ONE Top 25 finish in basketball, in 2015 (6% of the seasons).  And it was #21.  In the same timeframe, let's look at us compared to the rest of the SEC:

Kentucky - 11 (high of #1)
Florida - 11 (high of #1)
Tennessee - 5 (high of #5)
TX A&M - 4 (high of #9)
Missouri - 3 (high of #3)
MS State - 3 (high of #8)
Alabama - 2 (high of #8)
LSU - 2 (high of #19)
Georgia - 2 (high of #23)
Auburn - 1 (high of #19)
Arkansas - 1 (high of #21)
South Carolina - 1 (high of #23)
Ole Miss - none
Vandy - none

So, by this standard, we are the 11th most successful program in the SEC, which isn't exactly known as a super basketball conference either. 

How does Arkansas stack up to the NCAA as a whole by this measure?
Sadly we are tied at #87 with Houston and Providence

What about historical context comparing ourselves between 1949 and 2002?
We were ranked 19th with a high of #1 and finished ranked 28% of those years. 
 

Anyway, I'm not sure why I did this other than to address the discussion of apathy with the program.  It's hard to keep excitement levels of a Top 10-20 program (why we build BWA and have the expectations we do) when you barely maintain a Top 100 level program.  Personally, I've tried to maintain my own excitement, but it's very difficult, especially as an out-of-stater.  Can it change?  Or has it become so ingrained now within the culture and our place in the basketball world that there is no return? 

Source: http://www.collegepollarchive.com
I don't know the answer, but what is Arkansas record from Heath and Pel, then Anderson?
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Superhog1959

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 04:48:05 pm »

I was curious so I looked it up.
Heath 2002 to 2007  W82 L71
Pel     2007 to 2011  W69 L59
Total for Heath and Pel W 151 L130    Win pct 53%  11 years.

Anderson W161 L90    Win Pct 64%  8.5 years

It would be good to see the win % up around .700 or better. That range is normally where you see the better coaches. However, the first couple of years may distort this stat.
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batmanfan

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 05:00:36 pm »

If I used the website right (cool tool!)

Here is what I found on weeks in the 25 and where we rank against the other SEC schools.

Since 2002- 12th most

Since 2011 (Mikes first year)- 9th

Since 2013-14 (NIT season)- 7th

Since 2014-15 Mike best season- 7th

Since 2016 (Start of DM/JB era)- 10th
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avatar

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2019, 03:18:34 am »

The state of Razorback basketball is stale white bread
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ShadowHawg

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2019, 04:56:04 am »

True, but this is also why I put how we've been doing nationally as well.  Not so good.

Polls are a joke. I can't believe you are using them as a form of objective measure.

Take last season for example. According to the seeding committee we were a top 25 to 28 team. We didn't even sniff the polls though.

Florida entred the poll ahead of us after we throttled them in the SEC tournament. They had 11 losses.

I like the topic, but the polls have become a complete joke anymore. For years I would keep up with who was in and who was out. Not anymore. It's like the voters are barely casual basketball fans. SOS means very little. Texas Tech is not a to ten team this season. They have played pud after pud. But they are hovering at top 5 territory. It's a friggin joke.
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Sanctified Swine

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2019, 10:39:36 am »

I would like to see the breakdown of NCAA tourney appearances in that time., as well as NCAA tourney wins during that time.
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Rambo Hog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2019, 01:08:38 pm »

College basketball polls are a joke I mean they have Miss. State in the top 25 at 14 right now  but have beaten nobody except maybe ASU. Arkansas should of easily been ranked a couple times last year after beating Oklahoma and Tennessee and a great finish at the end of year before the NCAA tournament but not one time. There has to be some sort of bias against Arkansas or Mike Anderson from the poll voters.
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hobhog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2019, 01:36:17 pm »

Polls are a joke. I can't believe you are using them as a form of objective measure.

Take last season for example. According to the seeding committee we were a top 25 to 28 team. We didn't even sniff the polls though.

Florida entred the poll ahead of us after we throttled them in the SEC tournament. They had 11 losses.

I like the topic, but the polls have become a complete joke anymore. For years I would keep up with who was in and who was out. Not anymore. It's like the voters are barely casual basketball fans. SOS means very little. Texas Tech is not a to ten team this season. They have played pud after pud. But they are hovering at top 5 territory. It's a friggin joke.

Wow. Not sure what you are saying then. How do YOU measure good teams....?
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alohawg

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2019, 02:06:50 pm »

Mike Anderson right now kind of reminds me of where Andy Kennedy was at Ole Miss.  He's delivered stability and is well liked, but he's been around about a decade, delivered about 20 wins consistently, and that's about it.  At some point, you just have to acknowledge that the program is pretty much treading water and there's no reason to believe that a major surge is on its way.

Good summary of the state of the program. Not much hope in that though, but reality bites sometimes. That whole thing about expecting a different result comes to mind.
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Hoginsavga

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2019, 03:03:40 pm »

On the other hand, since end of season 2012 only Kentucky and Florida have been ranked more than once at season's end.  We are tied in the SEC for third place since 2012 with one post-season ranking in that period.  Between 2000 and 2014 we never ended a season ranked.  None of this is good, but it's misleading to suggest that the rest of the league has been putting us to shame in recent years (other than Florida and Kentucky).  The SEC has mostly been down for a while, upticks last year and perhaps this year.

The reason we canít win in football is because the SEC West is so good. The reason we canít win in basketball is because the SEC (except KY and FL) are mostly down. Either way we canít win. I know this isnít your point but many posters will use any excuse to try to make us look better than we really are. The fact is our program has fallen and it canít get up.

Fan701

Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2019, 05:55:15 pm »

The reason we canít win in football is because the SEC West is so good. The reason we canít win in basketball is because the SEC (except KY and FL) are mostly down. Either way we canít win. I know this isnít your point but many posters will use any excuse to try to make us look better than we really are. The fact is our program has fallen and it canít get up.
Making excuses?  I don't follow you.  Can you point out what I wrote that is incorrect?  Maybe that will clear it up.
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Boardon Hamsay

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2019, 06:09:28 pm »

How can South Carolina's highest final ranking only be #23?

I think weíre back to having math problems, Ponderin. We should proceed with vigilance...
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Lady Razorback

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 06:18:08 pm »

Sad (19th>87th). Mike has been great at stabilizing the program. We consistently win now, at least. It seems we get a little momentum every year, bit by bit... We needed a dedicated coach like him whose dream job it was to coach here in order to do that. Now that that has been accomplished, I'm open. But we need to find the right coach. It will likely have to be an up and comer, so a search committee would have to be really thorough. We could sink back and start all over again with the wrong hire. That said, I am a big fan of Mike and am hoping he brings the success we all expect to this program before the lack of results leaves no other option.

Thank you for voicing my sentiments almost exactly.  Mike will leave this program in better condition than he got back here.  At least that is one of my variables as to how intensely negative I feel about any coach. 
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ShadowHawg

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 08:12:47 pm »

Wow. Not sure what you are saying then. How do YOU measure good teams....?

KenPom. NCAA tournament seeding.

Anything other than opinion based poll numbers.

I watch a lot of college basketball as well. There isn't a lot of separation between 16 - 60 these days

I like being ranked. It gives me a lot of pride in my team as a fan. But it's become a homecoming queen contest these days instead of an informed attempt at rating the college basketball field.
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ChicoHog

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Re: State of Razorback Basketball Since 2002
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2019, 08:41:25 pm »

Mike Anderson right now kind of reminds me of where Andy Kennedy was at Ole Miss.  He's delivered stability and is well liked, but he's been around about a decade, delivered about 20 wins consistently, and that's about it.  At some point, you just have to acknowledge that the program is pretty much treading water and there's no reason to believe that a major surge is on its way.
To the OP-You can go back another 5 years to 1997.  Richardson's last few years were not very good either. 

^That's a pretty good analogy.  Kermit Davis is doing a great job there this year.  Don't know if they will keep it up but so far so good.  There is a lot of good coaches out there that we could hire but it's difficult to determine who is the right guy?  Yurachek should be doing all kinds of research on candidates and have 5 guys who he would go after if Anderson leaves or is fired in the next year or two.  Don't hire a guy like we did with Heath just because he had a tournament run.  Look at consistent success year after year and recruiting and building and maintaining a program.  I would love to get Musselman from Nevada and I'm sure there are plenty of other guys like him that are available. 
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