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Author Topic: Program Standards  (Read 2754 times)

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hamARchy in the USA

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2019, 09:04:33 pm »

With teams not playing round robin schedules anymore, a repercussion of conference over expansion, it's in one's interest to look at who they played when comparing coaches.  That '14-'15 year y'all are discussing is a good example.  That year Arkansas had the easiest schedule in the conference, doubling up on the weakest teams.  Florida was at the other extreme of that imbalance, suffering through the toughest schedule.  The result was Arkansas' team looked stronger on paper than it was and Florida's looked weaker.  That imbalance would affect conference tourney seedings and NCAA tourney possibilities.  Even up the schedules and Arkansas would have been a bubble team at best.  The conference schedule imbalances are not the programs' fault, of course, but they are a factor in the results.  That was the year Billy Donovan quit and I wondered if the schedule he got stuck with and might continue to had an impact.  It's certainly unfair to the kids to have to play uneven schedules.  I've wished a reporter would get Dononvan's thoughts on the subject.

As for the NCAA tourney it's often said that a team just has to get there and anything can happen. Depends on luck, matchups, officials, etc.  That's an urban myth.  It's true that any team can lose.  It's not true that any team can win it all because it's not true that any coach can win it all.  The facts are overwhelming to the contrary.  Of the last 45 national championship teams, the coach of 38 of the 45 teams won either the conference championship that year (33 of the 45) or he had won multiple conference championships.  The few outliers are modest outliers.   Bottom line is there are championship coaches and there are all the rest.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:17:20 pm by hamARchy in the USA »
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hogfanny

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2019, 09:12:46 pm »

Well, you make a good point. I remember being in Barnhill in the winter of ‘83, watching the Razorback team led by Joe Kleine, Alvin Robertson, and Darrell Walker play Phi Slamma Jamma. Left my seat during the second half to throw up. I remember being in McNichol Arena during the 1990 Final Four and beating my seat so hard with my fists that I thought I had broken a knuckle. I still get that way; I did last June in Omaha.

No longer about football or basketball, though. I watched all of the game last night, but never with any more emotion or upset than if I had been watching Indiana and Michigan play.

(Typing this made me recall my most vivid memory of that ‘83 Houston game. Darrell Walker, a senior, talked crap all week about Alvin Franklin, the ‘Coogs’ freshman point guard. First possession of the game, Franklin stole the ball from Walker for a break-away slam. That was a taste of things to come that evening.)
Is that because of hopelessness?  If you were at Bud Walton, do you think those in attendance will return for the next game?
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WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2019, 09:29:57 pm »

Is that because of hopelessness?  If you were at Bud Walton, do you think those in attendance will return for the next game?

I don’t know that “hopeless” is the right word. I will say that of our three major sports, baseball is the only one where I believe going into the season that we’ll be nationally competitive. With lower expectations comes less disappointment in a bad result.

26.2Hog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2019, 09:35:19 pm »

If "the standard" for Arkansas basketball is now "win 20, stay clean and make the NCAA tourney....sometimes" then some folks in the U of A Athletic Department are really, really bad at math.

This article shows Mike Anderson is the 25th-highest-paid college basketball coach in the country.


https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/sports/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-14774331

Article is from November 2018, so pretty current.

The "win 20, keep it clean, and make the NCAA Tourney....sometimes" standard is not a "Top 25 program" standard.

If that's the standard now, why are we paying "Top 25 program" money for it?

Good point Boonie,  Another salient point is that MA was the 8th highest paid college basketball coach when he was hired.  Thank you Jeff Long.

His compensation has remained in the top 25 now for 8 years.

Have we had top 25 results for 8 years?  No, for one year.

WxHog

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2019, 09:47:24 pm »

When Mike was hired, I didn't have expectations of a Final 4 but I thought he could at least take us to at least a Sweet 16 and perhaps an elite 8 (after all he did those at UAB and Mizzou). As far as regular season standards go, given our history, facilities, fan passion and attendance, we should be one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the SEC the majority of years...not in the middle of the pack.

For every 10 years, I expect an NCAA Tournament appearance 8 of those 10 years and a sweet 16 appearance at least once or twice a decade. 

So far, we are not meeting that I don't think these expectations are too much to ask.

hogfanny

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2019, 09:48:50 pm »

I don’t know that “hopeless” is the right word. I will say that of our three major sports, baseball is the only one where I believe going into the season that we’ll be nationally competitive. With lower expectations comes less disappointment in a bad result.
Just curious. I have had a serious addiction to Hog football and basketball since 1968 never missing one chance at either watching or listening to every event , no exceptions. After patiently waiting through football season to have hope of basketball satisfaction, and watching yesterday's game, I find myself seriously considering finding something else to do Saturday. Not to boycott or rebel, just something has short circuited and wondered if others felt like I do?

WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2019, 09:51:19 pm »

Just curious. I have had a serious addiction to Hog football and basketball since 1968 never missing one chance at either watching or listening to every event , no exceptions. After patiently waiting through football season to have hope of basketball satisfaction, and watching yesterday's game, I find myself seriously considering finding something else to do Saturday. Not to boycott or rebel, just something has short circuited and wondered if others felt like I do?

I’ll watch if I’m home and the game is on TV, but I won’t plan my Saturday around it.

upperdeck_hawg

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2019, 09:54:32 pm »

Marvin Lewis lasted 15 years in the NFL basically doing what MA is doing. He would show flashes and just win enough to where the owner would keep bringing him back. MA shows flashes and we keep waiting for that next year where he'll turn the corner. If you saw the FL game, you'll understand that it ain't happening folks. 40 minutes of hell became inneffective years ago when teams got used to playing that type of pressure defense. He actually has to coach fundamentals, discipline and x's and o's to get to that next level.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2019, 09:56:40 pm »

We won it all my senior year of high school.  I got the fever with Day, Mayberry, and Big O in the 8th grade.  I was “Razorback born” into a pretty high standard of winning.  All seems like a dream now.

hamARchy in the USA

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2019, 10:04:22 pm »

Marvin Lewis lasted 15 years in the NFL basically doing what MA is doing. He would show flashes and just win enough to where the owner would keep bringing him back. MA shows flashes and we keep waiting for that next year where he'll turn the corner. If you saw the FL game, you'll understand that it ain't happening folks. 40 minutes of hell became inneffective years ago when teams got used to playing that type of pressure defense. He actually has to coach fundamentals, discipline and x's and o's to get to that next level.

Agreed.  But if you saw him at Mizzou you knew it wasn't happening.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2019, 10:17:03 pm »

Dang. Oh well.i thought it was about winning.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2019, 10:47:17 pm »

Several things ...

* FACTS: Prior to FLA game (have not looked at all the updated data today), Arkansas is second only to Kentucky last 4-and-a-third seasons in total wins, SEC wins, SEC road wins (KY and UA only 2 teams with WINNING SEC ROAD RECORDS), SECT total wins (incl 2 SECT finals and one SECT semis in 3 of last 4 years), and NCAA tournament selections (3 out of last 4 years).

* FACTS: Although Arkansas has finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 3 of last 4 SEC regular seasons that resulted in strong runs in SECT, the Hogs do not have an SEC regular-season title, no SECT title, they've only been/finished nationally ranked once, and they've not once gotten to the second weekend of the NCAAT (a.k.a Sweet 16). Meanwhile, KY & SCar have reached Final Fours in that span, FLA an Elite 8, TA&M two Sweet 16s, and both TN and Auburn have risen from the ashes to win the SEC reg season.

* Anderson's resume is sarcastically referred to by many as "Well, he's a nice guy, doesn't cheat, and has never had a losing record ... is that the standard at Arkansas now?" C'mon, he took a program in a dumpster fire (APR coupled with mass player, coaching, and overall-program-culture toxicity) that had become a bottom-feeder in a weak league, already had the worst road record when he came in, regularly lost to mid-majors, and he's effectively been the 2nd-best team in the league behind Kentucky.

* Because Anderson doesn't cheat (and for other reasons) he doesn't win recruiting titles in the SEC. We know recruiting is really its own spectator sport these days, so perception-wise among many fans he's already lost ground entering each season because he's perceived to have an inferior team before a game is ever played. What a dilemma this creates ... i.e the narrative is Anderson can't recruit, but when his teams actually outperform many of the teams loading up on highly rated players fans still complain that Anderson can't develop his talent and that's why his teams lose some games to teams with worse records and SEC standing. Which is it? He consistently has the Hogs at the top of the SEC with recruiting classes that are not a reflection of that, but some how he comes out of that scenario with the perception that he can't recruit AND that his team's underachieve while either regressing or not developing talent. ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS ... can't have it both ways in reality, but in agenda-perception world that narrative thrives. 

* Other than a 2-3 year stretch against KY, the Hogs have been clobbered by the 'Cats and Florida in terms of head-to-head wins and losses. This is frustrating to the fanbase, and I think CMA is as much to fault as any other thing you can point to for this lack of success against the two biggest name brands in the league. His teams don't play with confiedence in these games and often times do more damage to their own chances than the opposition does -- I saw this last night at BWA -- and to me that is on the coach.

* Back to the postseason results. So much is about matchups, locale, and some luck. Arkansas went from a program that had not won its first-round SECT game for 5 consecutive seasons (last 3 Pel, first 2 CMA with Pel's wreckage) to having the 2nd-most SECT wins in the last 4 SECTs next to the 'Cats who own that event ... followed by 2-1 in first-round games and 0-2 in second-round games in the NCAAT. Bad luck to draw a UNC team twice given that in '14-15 UNC was clearly under-seeded relative to its talent and made it to the Sweet 16 before losing to a Wisconsin team that beat undefeated KY in the Final Four to advance to the title game, and in '16-17 UNC was on its way to winning the Natty after the refs helped them get past the Hogs to the Sweet 16. Meanwhile SCar -- a team Arkansas beat on the road late in SEC play that forced a two-way tie for 3rd in the league -- gets a better NCAAT seed even though the two team's resumes were arguably equitable, SCar also gets to play closer to home, gets more favorable matchups, gets to the Final Four. Those aren't excuses, those are realities. In '17-18, team probably underachieved relative to talent and experience, but bad team chemistry, divided lockerroom, no clear leader on that team, so in a sense CMA did wonders to put them in position for a Top 4 finish in a STRONG SEC. Nobody wants to play Butler, but I actually fault CMA and players equally for that performance -- his team was not ready, not hungy, not worthy against Butler and that falls on him as the Head Hog. But throw in the NIT in '13-14, and CMA is 3-1 in first-round postseason games. Also including NIT, CMA's Arkansas are 0-3 in 2nd round, but again getting UNC twice at that juncture was going to spell L for just about every team that would have drawn that matchup in those seasons.

* Let's get back to the "no losing seasons" thing and why it shouldn't be a punchline. In Billy Donovan's last season at FLA, his team suffered mass turnover for a variety of reasons and he suffered a losing record. No, that does not make the two coaches equal or BD inferior relative to CMA's no-losing records, but my point is two-fold: 1. Roster management is no longer easy for any program in this era of one-and-dones, mass transfers when playing time and roles don't happen right away, injuries/health related issues, etc. ... and 2. Almost no coach is immune from a down enough season to lead to a losing record, so IMO it says a lot about CMA's ability to get his teams to buy-in, believe in him, develop players, and get them to the winner's circle even against the odds. He does not get enough credit for this. 2015-16 could have been a 10-win season, but was damn near a 20-win NCAAT season.

* Analysis: Is CMA a "great" coach? No. Is he a "really good coach"? Some might say yes, but I lean toward him being somewhere between "good" and "really good." He's fixed 3 broken programs, taking both UAB and Missouri to some of the best results in those programs' histories while having relevant postseason success at both stops. He's returned a faltering Arkansas program back to near the top of the SEC, and though that includes getting back to NCAATs and regardless of some bad draws once there, he's repeatedly missed out on profund league success (titles) and national success (i.e. rankings, second weekend / Sweet 16). IMO, he's exactly what Arkansas needed to lift the program out of the depths it had fallen into under the collective runs of Heath/Pel, and though I don't think it's a fact or a reasonably proven postulate that he's reached his potential for how far he can advance the program, I do not blame fans for believing that he has hit his ceiling.

Eight years.
Eight years with what looks to be not much improvement in the future.
Great guy. good coach.
I expect better now

jchill

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2019, 12:18:57 am »

Attendance will tell. Was just offered 7 court side tickets and 2 parking passes to game Saturday. Booster says can't give em away.


Wow! We are 10-4 with a combined loss of 13 points. Yes, it's disappointing to lose three times at home so early in the season, but we still have a chance to have a good season.
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razorback1829

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2019, 12:29:40 am »

Eight years.
Eight years with what looks to be not much improvement in the future.
Great guy. good coach.
I expect better now

A sweet 16 away from your “expectations”. Once that happens, it won’t be good enough. Same old tale with this tired fan base.
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jvanhorn

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2019, 01:44:01 am »

Several things ...

* FACTS: Prior to FLA game (have not looked at all the updated data today), Arkansas is second only to Kentucky last 4-and-a-third seasons in total wins, SEC wins, SEC road wins (KY and UA only 2 teams with WINNING SEC ROAD RECORDS), SECT total wins (incl 2 SECT finals and one SECT semis in 3 of last 4 years), and NCAA tournament selections (3 out of last 4 years).

* FACTS: Although Arkansas has finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 3 of last 4 SEC regular seasons that resulted in strong runs in SECT, the Hogs do not have an SEC regular-season title, no SECT title, they've only been/finished nationally ranked once, and they've not once gotten to the second weekend of the NCAAT (a.k.a Sweet 16). Meanwhile, KY & SCar have reached Final Fours in that span, FLA an Elite 8, TA&M two Sweet 16s, and both TN and Auburn have risen from the ashes to win the SEC reg season.

* Anderson's resume is sarcastically referred to by many as "Well, he's a nice guy, doesn't cheat, and has never had a losing record ... is that the standard at Arkansas now?" C'mon, he took a program in a dumpster fire (APR coupled with mass player, coaching, and overall-program-culture toxicity) that had become a bottom-feeder in a weak league, already had the worst road record when he came in, regularly lost to mid-majors, and he's effectively been the 2nd-best team in the league behind Kentucky.

* Because Anderson doesn't cheat (and for other reasons) he doesn't win recruiting titles in the SEC. We know recruiting is really its own spectator sport these days, so perception-wise among many fans he's already lost ground entering each season because he's perceived to have an inferior team before a game is ever played. What a dilemma this creates ... i.e the narrative is Anderson can't recruit, but when his teams actually outperform many of the teams loading up on highly rated players fans still complain that Anderson can't develop his talent and that's why his teams lose some games to teams with worse records and SEC standing. Which is it? He consistently has the Hogs at the top of the SEC with recruiting classes that are not a reflection of that, but some how he comes out of that scenario with the perception that he can't recruit AND that his team's underachieve while either regressing or not developing talent. ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS ... can't have it both ways in reality, but in agenda-perception world that narrative thrives. 

* Other than a 2-3 year stretch against KY, the Hogs have been clobbered by the 'Cats and Florida in terms of head-to-head wins and losses. This is frustrating to the fanbase, and I think CMA is as much to fault as any other thing you can point to for this lack of success against the two biggest name brands in the league. His teams don't play with confiedence in these games and often times do more damage to their own chances than the opposition does -- I saw this last night at BWA -- and to me that is on the coach.

* Back to the postseason results. So much is about matchups, locale, and some luck. Arkansas went from a program that had not won its first-round SECT game for 5 consecutive seasons (last 3 Pel, first 2 CMA with Pel's wreckage) to having the 2nd-most SECT wins in the last 4 SECTs next to the 'Cats who own that event ... followed by 2-1 in first-round games and 0-2 in second-round games in the NCAAT. Bad luck to draw a UNC team twice given that in '14-15 UNC was clearly under-seeded relative to its talent and made it to the Sweet 16 before losing to a Wisconsin team that beat undefeated KY in the Final Four to advance to the title game, and in '16-17 UNC was on its way to winning the Natty after the refs helped them get past the Hogs to the Sweet 16. Meanwhile SCar -- a team Arkansas beat on the road late in SEC play that forced a two-way tie for 3rd in the league -- gets a better NCAAT seed even though the two team's resumes were arguably equitable, SCar also gets to play closer to home, gets more favorable matchups, gets to the Final Four. Those aren't excuses, those are realities. In '17-18, team probably underachieved relative to talent and experience, but bad team chemistry, divided lockerroom, no clear leader on that team, so in a sense CMA did wonders to put them in position for a Top 4 finish in a STRONG SEC. Nobody wants to play Butler, but I actually fault CMA and players equally for that performance -- his team was not ready, not hungy, not worthy against Butler and that falls on him as the Head Hog. But throw in the NIT in '13-14, and CMA is 3-1 in first-round postseason games. Also including NIT, CMA's Arkansas are 0-3 in 2nd round, but again getting UNC twice at that juncture was going to spell L for just about every team that would have drawn that matchup in those seasons.

* Let's get back to the "no losing seasons" thing and why it shouldn't be a punchline. In Billy Donovan's last season at FLA, his team suffered mass turnover for a variety of reasons and he suffered a losing record. No, that does not make the two coaches equal or BD inferior relative to CMA's no-losing records, but my point is two-fold: 1. Roster management is no longer easy for any program in this era of one-and-dones, mass transfers when playing time and roles don't happen right away, injuries/health related issues, etc. ... and 2. Almost no coach is immune from a down enough season to lead to a losing record, so IMO it says a lot about CMA's ability to get his teams to buy-in, believe in him, develop players, and get them to the winner's circle even against the odds. He does not get enough credit for this. 2015-16 could have been a 10-win season, but was damn near a 20-win NCAAT season.

* Analysis: Is CMA a "great" coach? No. Is he a "really good coach"? Some might say yes, but I lean toward him being somewhere between "good" and "really good." He's fixed 3 broken programs, taking both UAB and Missouri to some of the best results in those programs' histories while having relevant postseason success at both stops. He's returned a faltering Arkansas program back to near the top of the SEC, and though that includes getting back to NCAATs and regardless of some bad draws once there, he's repeatedly missed out on profund league success (titles) and national success (i.e. rankings, second weekend / Sweet 16). IMO, he's exactly what Arkansas needed to lift the program out of the depths it had fallen into under the collective runs of Heath/Pel, and though I don't think it's a fact or a reasonably proven postulate that he's reached his potential for how far he can advance the program, I do not blame fans for believing that he has hit his ceiling.

Getting clobbered by Kentucky and Florida is really no different than when he was at Missouri.  He got consistently clobbered by Kansas.  He had one team that was so talented that made a deep run in spite of him--and that is probably what will have to happen again.

ShadowHawg

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2019, 04:14:50 am »

Its the same 5 to 8 people bitching in every thread. Over and over

The standard at Arkansas is to pretend that success 30 years ago is somehow equal to today. If you can't see that this program has been on a steady rise over the last 8 seasons you are anincompoop.

Furthermore, all the worshippers of the past around here either turn a blind eye or completely ignore the FACT we were the third worst program in the SEC 9 years ago. Sustained, miserable results in the current era of college basketball made of one and domes and illegal recruiting. Not merely violating NCAA rules but people going to prison.

Where is the proof that this program is even capable of achieving sustained high levels of success in this new century? Dana Altman fled this job for more than not getting his academic advisors.

If you want to win Conference Championships find a conference that doesn't have one of the top 4 all time winningest programs in it. The SEC tournament isn't called the Kentucky invitational for no reason.

You people got your way once in 2001 and it destroyed the program. Destroyed it. Now you want to return to the same recipe that turned our program into South Carolina and Auburn of 15 years ago.

The Bible says that a dog will return to its vomit. This forum is proof of that.
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avatar

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2019, 05:35:02 am »

Its the same 5 to 8 people bitching in every thread. Over and over

The standard at Arkansas is to pretend that success 30 years ago is somehow equal to today. If you can't see that this program has been on a steady rise over the last 8 seasons you are anincompoop.

Furthermore, all the worshippers of the past around here either turn a blind eye or completely ignore the FACT we were the third worst program in the SEC 9 years ago. Sustained, miserable results in the current era of college basketball made of one and domes and illegal recruiting. Not merely violating NCAA rules but people going to prison.

Where is the proof that this program is even capable of achieving sustained high levels of success in this new century? Dana Altman fled this job for more than not getting his academic advisors.

If you want to win Conference Championships find a conference that doesn't have one of the top 4 all time winningest programs in it. The SEC tournament isn't called the Kentucky invitational for no reason.

You people got your way once in 2001 and it destroyed the program. Destroyed it. Now you want to return to the same recipe that turned our program into South Carolina and Auburn of 15 years ago.

The Bible says that a dog will return to its vomit. This forum is proof of that.

Now that is funny

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2019, 05:39:36 am »


Wow! We are 10-4 with a combined loss of 13 points. Yes, it's disappointing to lose three times at home so early in the season, but we still have a chance to have a good season.

Sounds like the fans who supported keeping Houston Nutt and Bret Bielema.

swineology

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2019, 06:12:20 am »

Just curious. I have had a serious addiction to Hog football and basketball since 1968 never missing one chance at either watching or listening to every event , no exceptions. After patiently waiting through football season to have hope of basketball satisfaction, and watching yesterday's game, I find myself seriously considering finding something else to do Saturday. Not to boycott or rebel, just something has short circuited and wondered if others felt like I do?

Don't feel bad. The administration feels the same way. Mike isn't going anywhere soon.
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jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2019, 06:44:29 am »

Its the same 5 to 8 people bitching in every thread. Over and over

The standard at Arkansas is to pretend that success 30 years ago is somehow equal to today. If you can't see that this program has been on a steady rise over the last 8 seasons you are anincompoop.

Furthermore, all the worshippers of the past around here either turn a blind eye or completely ignore the FACT we were the third worst program in the SEC 9 years ago. Sustained, miserable results in the current era of college basketball made of one and domes and illegal recruiting. Not merely violating NCAA rules but people going to prison.

Where is the proof that this program is even capable of achieving sustained high levels of success in this new century? Dana Altman fled this job for more than not getting his academic advisors.

If you want to win Conference Championships find a conference that doesn't have one of the top 4 all time winningest programs in it. The SEC tournament isn't called the Kentucky invitational for no reason.

You people got your way once in 2001 and it destroyed the program. Destroyed it. Now you want to return to the same recipe that turned our program into South Carolina and Auburn of 15 years ago.

The Bible says that a dog will return to its vomit. This forum is proof of that.

Holy crap. To sum up: No proof program can succeed. Fans shouldn’t ever expect to win the conference if KY is in it. Fans are to blame for the Nolan crap.


Additionally, let’s not even ask for sustained success. Is it too much to have 1 year of success in 8 years? Just 1.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:56:34 am by jst01 »
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Kevin

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2019, 07:07:38 am »

When we came into the sec, the hogs were equal to the cats. At the sec tournament, the league was stunned by the passion of the razorback fans, when the hogs walked into the building.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2019, 07:53:32 am »

Absolutely no need for the personal comments, gentlemen. Those add nothing to the discussion.

Kevin and Shadow both made good points; there is no question, no argument, that Mike has restored the program from the Heath and Pelphrey years. If he retired today, there should be 100% agreement that in all respects he left the program better than he found it.

The question that remains, and this is true of all coaches, is whether the decision-makers believe he can take it even further, whether they are happy with where it is, or whether they think someone else can do better. Time will tell on that decision.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2019, 07:57:37 am »

Its the same 5 to 8 people bitching in every thread. Over and over

The standard at Arkansas is to pretend that success 30 years ago is somehow equal to today. If you can't see that this program has been on a steady rise over the last 8 seasons you are anincompoop.

Furthermore, all the worshippers of the past around here either turn a blind eye or completely ignore the FACT we were the third worst program in the SEC 9 years ago. Sustained, miserable results in the current era of college basketball made of one and domes and illegal recruiting. Not merely violating NCAA rules but people going to prison.

Where is the proof that this program is even capable of achieving sustained high levels of success in this new century? Dana Altman fled this job for more than not getting his academic advisors.

If you want to win Conference Championships find a conference that doesn't have one of the top 4 all time winningest programs in it. The SEC tournament isn't called the Kentucky invitational for no reason.

You people got your way once in 2001 and it destroyed the program. Destroyed it. Now you want to return to the same recipe that turned our program into South Carolina and Auburn of 15 years ago.

The Bible says that a dog will return to its vomit. This forum is proof of that.
1. When I don't agree with the content of a thread I try another thread or forum. I will never be one.to ask others to give up freedom of speech just because I don't agree whenever I can easily find other reading.

2. Steady rise over the last eight seasons would include right now.  Count me as a nincompoop if that helps you.

3. We could be third worst in the Sec right now if the Florida game is any indicator.

4. Where is proof we are not capable of great success? We should be able to do anything Tennessee can do.

5. I want a conference championship by beating Kentucky

6. It is news to me that Hogville destroyed the program in 2001.

7. The Bible also says " ask and ye shall receive"

Not meaning to pick on you but I just could not agree with anything in this post,  But just because  of a difference of opinion I will not wish for you to be banned or your post to be deleted. There is always two sides to every story.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 01:04:14 pm by hogfanny »
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jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2019, 08:01:38 am »


The question that remains, and this is true of all coaches, is whether the decision-makers believe he can take it even further, whether they are happy with where it is, or whether they think someone else can do better. Time will tell on that decision.

Agreed.  We as passionate fans just have big differing opinions on the answer to this exact question. Some want to avoid risk for fear of returning to Pel years, while I am more OK with risk in the thought that it can be taken higher and the Pel years were the anomaly in the last 40 years and not some average that we will slip back down to.
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Tweeter

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2019, 08:21:36 am »

I have posted before that the standard by which a Razorback basketball coach should be judged is that established first by Eddie Sutton and then built on by Nolan Richardson.

There is a whole lot of ground between "should be judged" and "is judged."

Posters keep saying that Mike "has had eight years," as if there is some standard, some expectation, that he has yet to meet.

Maybe not. Maybe the standard of the Razorback basketball program is now, "run it cleanly, win 20 games, and make the NCAA Tournament." If so, that standard is being met. Maybe Jump Ball is living in a time warp, expecting results that the powers-that-be, the decision-makers, do not. If that is the standard, Mike's departure for whatever reason would not make a whole lot of difference.

Time will tell. Maybe it already is.


Why is the standard for the basketball program different than for the football program? 
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The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2019, 08:27:14 am »

Absolutely no need for the personal comments, gentlemen. Those add nothing to the discussion.

Kevin and Shadow both made good points; there is no question, no argument, that Mike has restored the program from the Heath and Pelphrey years. If he retired today, there should be 100% agreement that in all respects he left the program better than he found it.

The question that remains, and this is true of all coaches, is whether the decision-makers believe he can take it even further, whether they are happy with where it is, or whether they think someone else can do better. Time will tell on that decision.

Agreed. it is much better than when he found it. For that, he certainly deserves credit. And also for running a program that the fans can be proud of. There hasn't been a coach at the UofA that I personally have wanted to see succeed more than Mike. He is a great ambassador for the program.

However, he has underachieved. I very reasonable expectation is for Mike to take our program to national relevancy. That, by all accounts, is judged by being in the Top 25 and Tournament success.

Think about this: make a list of all teams that have been in the Top 25 more than Arkansas in Mike's 8 years.

Also, make a list of all the programs that have been to the Sweet 16 since Mike has been here.

Now, after reviewing that, try to argue that Mike has succeeded at Arkansas.

Big Nasty 34

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2019, 08:47:19 am »

Not saying this should or shouldn’t be the expectations, but if you look at the overall program winning percentage, it would equate to 20-21 wins a year I believe.
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razorback1829

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2019, 08:49:52 am »

Agreed. it is much better than when he found it. For that, he certainly deserves credit. And also for running a program that the fans can be proud of. There hasn't been a coach at the UofA that I personally have wanted to see succeed more than Mike. He is a great ambassador for the program.

However, he has underachieved. I very reasonable expectation is for Mike to take our program to national relevancy. That, by all accounts, is judged by being in the Top 25 and Tournament success.

Think about this: make a list of all teams that have been in the Top 25 more than Arkansas in Mike's 8 years.

Also, make a list of all the programs that have been to the Sweet 16 since Mike has been here.

Now, after reviewing that, try to argue that Mike has succeeded at Arkansas.

As important as making it to the second weekend is, this program needed to seriously straightened out. Y’all keep moving to the goal post though. First it’s second weekend, now it’s second weekend and Top 25.

All it’s going to take is one run, and all this is moot. And if you don’t think MA has another run in him you would be very foolish.
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jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2019, 08:55:26 am »


All it’s going to take is one run, and all this is moot. And if you don’t think MA has another run in him you would be very foolish.

We all have our evidence.  You believe he has a run in him b/c he did it 10 years ago at another school.  I dont think he will ever reach the Sweet 16 with AR b/c I have the last 8 years of evidence of him here.  What data is more reliable?  We will find out.
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TushCrush

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2019, 08:55:43 am »

The Bible says that a dog will return to its vomit.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2019, 08:59:47 am »

The goalposts haven't moved.  Read my sig line written by an out of state journalist at the time we hired Mike.

I think if you were to get input from those who cover college basketball outside of Arkansas they'll tell you they are surprised by how this has played out with Mike at Arkansas and the fact we are still irrelevant. 

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The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2019, 09:08:30 am »

It will take a lot of player development for Mike to even have this program back into the NCAA Tournament before the year 2020, and even getting there in 2020 will requiring a lot of things to go right for Mike.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2019, 09:23:38 am »

Extra scoring chances per game has been an indicator of how Mike's teams fared with a couple of exceptions:  his second season at Arkansas and the '16-17 team.

Starting with Mike's first team at UAB:
4.9
5.0 Sw 16
5.2 R32
4.5
3.3 Mizzou
2.8
6.5 the E8 team
5.6 R32
4.5
1.1 Arkansas
6.7
4.3
5.3 Portis/Qualls 27-9
2.9
-0.2
2.0
1.1 so far this season

The trend is heading in the wrong direction. 
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Superhog1959

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2019, 09:34:03 am »

I read all these comments for and against Coach Anderson. To a degree, I think some on both sides are correct.
Here's what I see.

Positive. The basketball team is much improved over the Heath and Pel years. It had at some point gotten so bad, we hired a coach, he came here, looked around and ran. These last few years have had a lot of good moments. Coach Anderson took a piece of junk team and made them entertaining again. He has recruited well lately and seems to still be recruiting well. We should have beat NC if not for bad officiating. (KY) too. We win that game, who knows what could have happened. He has a very young and talented team now. Whom I think could be pretty good later in the season. I enjoy watching the Hogs now. Before Mike came back, I didn't watch and didn't care. He has made the Hogs better than when he got here. Everyone wants more improvement. You either move forward or your moving backwards.

Negative. The game has changed so much from when Nolan was the coach. Rule changes, style of play changes has outdated what Nolan did. Mike doesn't seem to grasp that. It bothers me to see our players chasing the ball around like cats chasing a laser light. Then giving up open 3s or dunks under the basket. It bothers me to see players jacking up 3s <10sec. into a possession with no under or around the basket help. It bothers me to have a All American center that don't get the ball fed to him regularly. Instead he sets screens at the top of the key.
 
I have seen flashes that Mike does know how to change. When he has, we were more successful. With the players he has now and some incoming. I would like to see how the next 2 years go before thinking its time for a change. Just like football, I want the Coach to succeed. To me, firing a coach is the last resort that should be taken. If your winning most games and fire your coach, it can get worse. If you miss on a new hire, it can set the program back years. If you miss on 2 new hires, it can be a decade or more. 

HogBreath

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2019, 09:54:51 am »

We all have our evidence.  You believe he has a run in him b/c he did it 10 years ago at another school.  I dont think he will ever reach the Sweet 16 with AR b/c I have the last 8 years of evidence of him here.  What data is more reliable?  We will find out.
Mike's teams have made it past the round of 32 only twice in 16 years.  Mike has never won an outright championship of any type, he did share a conference title back at UAB.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2019, 10:01:06 am »

Just curious. I have had a serious addiction to Hog football and basketball since 1968 never missing one chance at either watching or listening to every event , no exceptions. After patiently waiting through football season to have hope of basketball satisfaction, and watching yesterday's game, I find myself seriously considering finding something else to do Saturday. Not to boycott or rebel, just something has short circuited and wondered if others felt like I do?

Yes, a resounding Y E S!  I think a LOT of people feel like you do.  I have so many friends who have season tickets, corporate give-away access to tickets, and other means of getting them....that I gave mine up for football...after decades.  It's the same for basketball.  I can go to any game....free, with nothing but a phone call or two.  Everyone else's apathy, is my gain, if I choose to go that route.   

Sadly, despite that, I find myself feeling like it's time to make different memories.  I have some spectacular memories from yester-year dating back to Holtz and Sutton....moving forward.  I'm just to a point that I don't want to feel obligated to go watch an inferior product.  For YEARS I have been on Hogville suggesting that people not be a fair-weathered fan, and that being a fan means paying and supporting the teams even when we stink.  You know what...I'm going to let some others carry that torch for awhile.  I've done my part.   

I told two close friend earlier in the season that we were watching fool's gold with this team.  I could watch how they play, and I KNEW that the minute we started playing some PHYSICAL teams with real men, we were going to get shoved around, and not have the fortitude to compete.  That's what we're seeing play out.  We stand around the 3 pt. line hoping for a wide open shot, until time runs down, and we take a contested three...and miss.  And MA allows it to happen.  At some point, I would instruct the team that a shot DOES NOT go up outside of the paint...period.  Drive the ball, pass it inside...whatever it takes, to get them to MOVE.  I say that...but when you're outside the top 300 in FT %, maybe it's not a good idea to drive the lane and get fouled. 

This team...has zero chance of winning meaningful games in conference with how they shoot FT's.  I don't know how you solve that, but if it means shooting FT's for half of practice with a plethora of shooting coaches...THAT is your starting point.  It's abysmal, and quite frankly...inexcusable. 

This team has no chance of winning the physical battle with their size and strength.  They have to do it with speed.  It's VERY difficult to use that advantage when you stand around.  If they don't put the "motion" in our motion offense, we're going to see some REALLY ugly scores put up.  This team should be in constant motion...screening, pick and roll to Gafford, and playing defense in the opposition's shadow.  We don't do that...and I don't understand why MA can't motivate them to play like they did in the last 5 minutes of the FLA game....the ENTIRE game.  Ugh..I gotta stop this rant.  I'm starting to care again.... :puke:   

BossHawg_Outlaw

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2019, 11:12:38 am »

After this season, the standard of "Make the Tournament" will have only been met 3 of Mike's 8 years, with no Sweet 16. We will lose Gafford next year. Will there be enough player development for Mike to make it in year 9?

People keep dreaming about some program changing 2020 class. We have had these before, and Mike has never fully delivered and/or retained.

The quality of coaches in the SEC is increasing. In a year when there is a clear path to being the #2 team, our 8th year coach has us squabbling to barely score 50 points.

as the Quality of other teams coaches increase our quality decreases.

Letsroll1200

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2019, 11:19:59 am »

When we came into the sec, the hogs were equal to the cats. At the sec tournament, the league was stunned by the passion of the razorback fans, when the hogs walked into the building.

Memories! However, the AD fired the best thing that ever happened to the University of Arkansas.

The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2019, 12:25:17 pm »

Memories! However, the AD fired the best thing that ever happened to the University of Arkansas.

And then backed up that mistake by not hiring Bill Self. Maybe the worst decision in program history.

Paul

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2019, 12:48:59 pm »

I've been a Hog BB fan since the Martin Terry/Dean Tolson days.  what I see & hear from other formerly rabid Hog BB fans is that we have 2 choices going forward:  Apathy or capitulation to a new lower standard
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phadedhawg

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:02 pm »

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raz1965

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2019, 02:32:05 pm »

The biggest problem I have seen with the hog teams in the last few years was having forwards with out the skill to complete a team. This team is lacking skill at the forward position, it is very difficult to feed the ball inside to the center when there is really no offensive skill player around him to pull any defense away, and fans don't want to hear these guys are really inexperienced, put the blame where you want too but this team will be much better one day with a couple of great additions inside, blow it up by making adminatration changes or have patience an leave it alone, I will be a hog fan an watch basketball whatever the case may be, looking forward to a great team in the near future but in the mean time I'm hoping for improvement alone the way this year. The program standards are to be excellent, an the future has appeared promising, although it has fell short but circumstances beyond controll has been prevalent, likely the main reason time has  been extended an the people in charge do evaluate with success being the main goal. Go hogs.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2019, 02:34:43 pm »

I've been a Hog BB fan since the Martin Terry/Dean Tolson days.  what I see & hear from other formerly rabid Hog BB fans is that we have 2 choices going forward:  Apathy or capitulation to a new lower standard

I try not to think that way, because regardless of how it feels, last year was pretty successful.  We had NC beat, and let them off the hook.  We played toe to toe with the eventual NC, so that should be enough for us as fans to be encouraged. 

What's hard to explain...is why many aren't.  To start the year, we were playing defense with intensity, and people were commenting that it was finally what we expected from Mike all along.  We had an inside out game going that allowed our shooters time.  Now...neither of those things is happening, and it's a head scratcher. 

We are FAR more likely to be competitive in BB than football due to our state's population.  I'm hoping we're just in a funk, and that the team will remember that if they work through Gafford, it will benefit them greatly.  We'll see....
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phadedhawg

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2019, 02:47:40 pm »

I try not to think that way, because regardless of how it feels, last year was pretty successful.  We had NC beat, and let them off the hook.  We played toe to toe with the eventual NC, so that should be enough for us as fans to be encouraged. 


Last year we lost to Butler in the opening round.  The year before we lost to North Carolina
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26.2Hog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2019, 04:50:14 pm »

Memories! However, the AD fired the best thing that ever happened to the University of Arkansas.

I now that's how it looked, but the board of trustees immediately took to their phones to discuss then quickly voted unanimously to fire him for making public demeaning and disparaging comments about the University.

They told John White to get it done and White told Broyles.

26.2Hog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2019, 04:56:32 pm »

And then backed up that mistake by not hiring Bill Self. Maybe the worst decision in program history.

The AD had Bill Self ready but the idiot John White nixed it because he thought it would be a better image for the University to hire a coach of color.

John White back then made himself the de facto AD, and the real AD still catches a lot of hell today for White's ineptness.

urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2019, 12:07:58 am »

Last year we lost to Butler in the opening round.  The year before we lost to North Carolina

Yeah...I'm trying to forget that.   ;D
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Hog Pharm

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2019, 12:48:04 pm »

It will take a lot of player development for Mike to even have this program back into the NCAA Tournament before the year 2020, and even getting there in 2020 will requiring a lot of things to go right for Mike.

This is my biggest issue. It’s not what MA has done the past 4 years. You can cherry pick timeframes to fit your narrative. The truth is that the future looks pretty bleak for the rest of this year and next.
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TOM "tbw1"

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2019, 08:50:35 pm »

Yes
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247Hog

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2019, 08:57:01 pm »

Seems like the standards were higher at Mizzou than Arkansas. And MA's teams were much better at Mizzou.

Well said.

Almost feels like Mike is the Houston Nutt of Basketball. Feels he can do just enough to get keep his job. Hire his buddies. Pop out a really good season every 3 years.

Sorry, im not impressed using making the NCAA tournament as an accomplishment. Arkansas basketball has everything a coach needs for that to be THE minimum standard.

I hear all the time this state produces hardly any D1 football talent but we're a good basketball state. Well, what is the reason we can make it past 32 teams in 8 years?
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