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Author Topic: Program Standards  (Read 2756 times)

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WilsonHog

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Program Standards
« on: January 10, 2019, 02:13:44 pm »

I have posted before that the standard by which a Razorback basketball coach should be judged is that established first by Eddie Sutton and then built on by Nolan Richardson.

There is a whole lot of ground between "should be judged" and "is judged."

Posters keep saying that Mike "has had eight years," as if there is some standard, some expectation, that he has yet to meet.

Maybe not. Maybe the standard of the Razorback basketball program is now, "run it cleanly, win 20 games, and make the NCAA Tournament." If so, that standard is being met. Maybe Jump Ball is living in a time warp, expecting results that the powers-that-be, the decision-makers, do not. If that is the standard, Mike's departure for whatever reason would not make a whole lot of difference.

Time will tell. Maybe it already is.

hobhog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 02:23:38 pm »

Attendance will tell. Was just offered 7 court side tickets and 2 parking passes to game Saturday. Booster says can't give em away.

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AirWarren

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 02:25:55 pm »

Attendance will tell. Was just offered 7 court side tickets and 2 parking passes to game Saturday. Booster says can't give em away.

That’s sad.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 02:28:06 pm »

The key to happiness is to meet expectations.  If you aren't happy, lower your expectations.

WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 02:29:10 pm »

Attendance will tell. Was just offered 7 court side tickets and 2 parking passes to game Saturday. Booster says can't give em away.

That depends on whether the attendance number that matters to the decision-makers is “sold” or “scanned.”
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hobhog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 02:34:23 pm »

The key to happiness is to meet expectations.  If you aren't happy, lower your expectations.

Bar has been lowered a little each year for a while now. Where it bottoms out who knows, but if team doesn't turn around soon HY will have to at least comment on it by seasons end.
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The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 02:35:32 pm »

After this season, the standard of "Make the Tournament" will have only been met 3 of Mike's 8 years, with no Sweet 16. We will lose Gafford next year. Will there be enough player development for Mike to make it in year 9?

People keep dreaming about some program changing 2020 class. We have had these before, and Mike has never fully delivered and/or retained.

The quality of coaches in the SEC is increasing. In a year when there is a clear path to being the #2 team, our 8th year coach has us squabbling to barely score 50 points.

Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2019, 02:38:52 pm »

Attendance will tell. Was just offered 7 court side tickets and 2 parking passes to game Saturday. Booster says can't give em away.

hob - For at least 2 straight seasons, we averaged 9,500 fans per game actual attendance with an average of over 5,000 no shows per game and not only did nothing happen but the UA put out press releases bragging about the amount of tickets sold.  Nevermind 1/3 of them went unused.  This after the 27-9 season that was supposedly so exciting. 

7,210 no shows last night.  38% of the tickets sold unused.  For the SEC home opener coming off an SEC road win.

I do not think the UA cares about the attendance.  They may care about tickets sold.  But SEC/football money pays the bills these days and baseball takes care of itself. 

I'm not getting into the standards conversation again.  We'll have another 10 losses or more this season.  Don't have it in me to go through this after every one.  And then repeat it next season.  Just like we've repeated these conversations for 7+ seasons. 

hobhog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2019, 02:53:41 pm »

hob - For at least 2 straight seasons, we averaged 9,500 fans per game actual attendance with an average of over 5,000 no shows per game and not only did nothing happen but the UA put out press releases bragging about the amount of tickets sold.  Nevermind 1/3 of them went unused.  This after the 27-9 season that was supposedly so exciting. 

7,210 no shows last night.  38% of the tickets sold unused.  For the SEC home opener coming off an SEC road win.

I do not think the UA cares about the attendance.  They may care about tickets sold.  But SEC/football money pays the bills these days and baseball takes care of itself. 

I'm not getting into the standards conversation again.  We'll have another 10 losses or more this season.  Don't have it in me to go through this after every one.  And then repeat it next season.  Just like we've repeated these conversations for 7+ seasons.

It's no secret I'm not a MA fan as far as him being our basketball coach, but I've never seen such disgust, satire and apathy in the circles I run in. I'm sure we will bounce back as usual later in the season, but we are on a slippery slope in my opinion. Even other basketball programs with less prestige than ours have standards they expect. We have to be getting close to bottom with ours. I'd hope so as already lower than mine obviously.

jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2019, 02:56:22 pm »

I would think their standard is what they always say when a new AD takes over. We want to compete at the highest levels and win championships.  The highest levels of college basketball is not just being a participant in the 64 team tournament anymore. 

WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2019, 02:59:07 pm »

I would think their standard is what they always say when a new AD takes over. We want to compete at the highest levels and win championships.  The highest levels of college basketball is not just being a participant in the 64 team tournament anymore.

My Contract Law professor, Wylie Davis, would have referred to that as “puffery.”

jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2019, 03:14:59 pm »

My Contract Law professor, Wylie Davis, would have referred to that as “puffery.”

For sure. Sports fans are the most gullible consumer there is.
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Darren DeLoach (semohawg)

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2019, 03:27:41 pm »

It isn't the standards or expectations that are the problem...it is very poor basketball. I watch dozens of games at every level. Youth leagues to the NBA. It isn't expectations that kept the ball away from the best player on the court. It was terrible basketball execution. This has been the norm for some time now. Coach Anderson is an amazing man, but what is being displayed on the court under his watch is inexcusable.

jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 03:37:09 pm »

It isn't the standards or expectations that are the problem...it is very poor basketball. I watch dozens of games at every level. Youth leagues to the NBA. It isn't expectations that kept the ball away from the best player on the court. It was terrible basketball execution. This has been the norm for some time now. Coach Anderson is an amazing man, but what is being displayed on the court under his watch is inexcusable.

100% correct. It really is that simple. 

orvillesghost

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 03:38:32 pm »

I was 17 when we won the SWC title in 1977 and 36 the last really good year we have had *1996*. Those are formative years in anyone's life and for that reason my standard is that standard. Winning the conference championship most years, winning the conference tournament and making a good run in the NCAA tournament.

I think the standard though in the recent past at least for a lot of posters is what Wilson said..win around 20 games, clean program, simply make the NCAA tournament.

That drives me nuts though less and less as time goes on. Apathy has just about finished me.

Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2019, 03:56:52 pm »

Several things ...

* FACTS: Prior to FLA game (have not looked at all the updated data today), Arkansas is second only to Kentucky last 4-and-a-third seasons in total wins, SEC wins, SEC road wins (KY and UA only 2 teams with WINNING SEC ROAD RECORDS), SECT total wins (incl 2 SECT finals and one SECT semis in 3 of last 4 years), and NCAA tournament selections (3 out of last 4 years).

* FACTS: Although Arkansas has finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 3 of last 4 SEC regular seasons that resulted in strong runs in SECT, the Hogs do not have an SEC regular-season title, no SECT title, they've only been/finished nationally ranked once, and they've not once gotten to the second weekend of the NCAAT (a.k.a Sweet 16). Meanwhile, KY & SCar have reached Final Fours in that span, FLA an Elite 8, TA&M two Sweet 16s, and both TN and Auburn have risen from the ashes to win the SEC reg season.

* Anderson's resume is sarcastically referred to by many as "Well, he's a nice guy, doesn't cheat, and has never had a losing record ... is that the standard at Arkansas now?" C'mon, he took a program in a dumpster fire (APR coupled with mass player, coaching, and overall-program-culture toxicity) that had become a bottom-feeder in a weak league, already had the worst road record when he came in, regularly lost to mid-majors, and he's effectively been the 2nd-best team in the league behind Kentucky.

* Because Anderson doesn't cheat (and for other reasons) he doesn't win recruiting titles in the SEC. We know recruiting is really its own spectator sport these days, so perception-wise among many fans he's already lost ground entering each season because he's perceived to have an inferior team before a game is ever played. What a dilemma this creates ... i.e the narrative is Anderson can't recruit, but when his teams actually outperform many of the teams loading up on highly rated players fans still complain that Anderson can't develop his talent and that's why his teams lose some games to teams with worse records and SEC standing. Which is it? He consistently has the Hogs at the top of the SEC with recruiting classes that are not a reflection of that, but some how he comes out of that scenario with the perception that he can't recruit AND that his team's underachieve while either regressing or not developing talent. ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS ... can't have it both ways in reality, but in agenda-perception world that narrative thrives. 

* Other than a 2-3 year stretch against KY, the Hogs have been clobbered by the 'Cats and Florida in terms of head-to-head wins and losses. This is frustrating to the fanbase, and I think CMA is as much to fault as any other thing you can point to for this lack of success against the two biggest name brands in the league. His teams don't play with confiedence in these games and often times do more damage to their own chances than the opposition does -- I saw this last night at BWA -- and to me that is on the coach.

* Back to the postseason results. So much is about matchups, locale, and some luck. Arkansas went from a program that had not won its first-round SECT game for 5 consecutive seasons (last 3 Pel, first 2 CMA with Pel's wreckage) to having the 2nd-most SECT wins in the last 4 SECTs next to the 'Cats who own that event ... followed by 2-1 in first-round games and 0-2 in second-round games in the NCAAT. Bad luck to draw a UNC team twice given that in '14-15 UNC was clearly under-seeded relative to its talent and made it to the Sweet 16 before losing to a Wisconsin team that beat undefeated KY in the Final Four to advance to the title game, and in '16-17 UNC was on its way to winning the Natty after the refs helped them get past the Hogs to the Sweet 16. Meanwhile SCar -- a team Arkansas beat on the road late in SEC play that forced a two-way tie for 3rd in the league -- gets a better NCAAT seed even though the two team's resumes were arguably equitable, SCar also gets to play closer to home, gets more favorable matchups, gets to the Final Four. Those aren't excuses, those are realities. In '17-18, team probably underachieved relative to talent and experience, but bad team chemistry, divided lockerroom, no clear leader on that team, so in a sense CMA did wonders to put them in position for a Top 4 finish in a STRONG SEC. Nobody wants to play Butler, but I actually fault CMA and players equally for that performance -- his team was not ready, not hungy, not worthy against Butler and that falls on him as the Head Hog. But throw in the NIT in '13-14, and CMA is 3-1 in first-round postseason games. Also including NIT, CMA's Arkansas are 0-3 in 2nd round, but again getting UNC twice at that juncture was going to spell L for just about every team that would have drawn that matchup in those seasons.

* Let's get back to the "no losing seasons" thing and why it shouldn't be a punchline. In Billy Donovan's last season at FLA, his team suffered mass turnover for a variety of reasons and he suffered a losing record. No, that does not make the two coaches equal or BD inferior relative to CMA's no-losing records, but my point is two-fold: 1. Roster management is no longer easy for any program in this era of one-and-dones, mass transfers when playing time and roles don't happen right away, injuries/health related issues, etc. ... and 2. Almost no coach is immune from a down enough season to lead to a losing record, so IMO it says a lot about CMA's ability to get his teams to buy-in, believe in him, develop players, and get them to the winner's circle even against the odds. He does not get enough credit for this. 2015-16 could have been a 10-win season, but was damn near a 20-win NCAAT season.

* Analysis: Is CMA a "great" coach? No. Is he a "really good coach"? Some might say yes, but I lean toward him being somewhere between "good" and "really good." He's fixed 3 broken programs, taking both UAB and Missouri to some of the best results in those programs' histories while having relevant postseason success at both stops. He's returned a faltering Arkansas program back to near the top of the SEC, and though that includes getting back to NCAATs and regardless of some bad draws once there, he's repeatedly missed out on profund league success (titles) and national success (i.e. rankings, second weekend / Sweet 16). IMO, he's exactly what Arkansas needed to lift the program out of the depths it had fallen into under the collective runs of Heath/Pel, and though I don't think it's a fact or a reasonably proven postulate that he's reached his potential for how far he can advance the program, I do not blame fans for believing that he has hit his ceiling.

RazorPiggie

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2019, 03:58:18 pm »

We aren't meeting the standard.

In a coaches 8th year I expect to be in the top 25 and looking to make a tourney run. Not this joke of a team we have now.

WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2019, 03:58:24 pm »

I was 17 when we won the SWC title in 1977 and 36 the last really good year we have had *1996*. Those are formative years in anyone's life and for that reason my standard is that standard. Winning the conference championship most years, winning the conference tournament and making a good run in the NCAA tournament.

I think the standard though in the recent past at least for a lot of posters is what Wilson said..win around 20 games, clean program, simply make the NCAA tournament.

That drives me nuts though less and less as time goes on. Apathy has just about finished me.

We’re about the same age, and that has always been my standard as well. Given my complete lack of influence, however, It doesn’t much matter.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2019, 04:02:20 pm »

Florida has been the SEC's second best program during Mike's tenure. 
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The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2019, 04:04:14 pm »

Three things Mike hasn't done at Arkansas:

1) tournament success

2) getting ranked in the Top 25

3) roster management

The reason this team is so young, is because of his poor roster management. A lot of that has to do with the disastrous 2015 offseason, probably the worst in the country. Some Mike's fault, some was bad luck.

BannerMountainMan

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2019, 04:05:29 pm »

Three things Mike hasn't done at Arkansas:

1) tournament success

2) getting ranked in the Top 25

3) roster management

The reason this team is so young, is because of his poor roster management. A lot of that has to do with the disastrous 2015 offseason, probably the worst in the country. Some Mike's fault, some was bad luck.
what do you mean getting ranked? If you mean like hasn’t at all, you’re wrong, he has been ranked in three different seasons.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2019, 04:05:59 pm »

Several things ...

* FACTS: Prior to FLA game (have not looked at all the updated data today), Arkansas is second only to Kentucky last 4-and-a-third seasons in total wins, SEC wins, SEC road wins (KY and UA only 2 teams with WINNING SEC ROAD RECORDS), SECT total wins (incl 2 SECT finals and one SECT semis in 3 of last 4 years), and NCAA tournament selections (3 out of last 4 years).

* FACTS: Although Arkansas has finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 3 of last 4 SEC regular seasons that resulted in strong runs in SECT, the Hogs do not have an SEC regular-season title, no SECT title, they've only been/finished nationally ranked once, and they've not once gotten to the second weekend of the NCAAT (a.k.a Sweet 16). Meanwhile, KY & SCar have reached Final Fours in that span, FLA an Elite 8, TA&M two Sweet 16s, and both TN and Auburn have risen from the ashes to win the SEC reg season.

* Anderson's resume is sarcastically referred to by many as "Well, he's a nice guy, doesn't cheat, and has never had a losing record ... is that the standard at Arkansas now?" C'mon, he took a program in a dumpster fire (APR coupled with mass player, coaching, and overall-program-culture toxicity) that had become a bottom-feeder in a weak league, already had the worst road record when he came in, regularly lost to mid-majors, and he's effectively been the 2nd-best team in the league behind Kentucky.

* Because Anderson doesn't cheat (and for other reasons) he doesn't win recruiting titles in the SEC. We know recruiting is really its own spectator sport these days, so perception-wise among many fans he's already lost ground entering each season because he's perceived to have an inferior team before a game is ever played. What a dilemma this creates ... i.e the narrative is Anderson can't recruit, but when his teams actually outperform many of the teams loading up on highly rated players fans still complain that Anderson can't develop his talent and that's why his teams lose some games to teams with worse records and SEC standing. Which is it? He consistently has the Hogs at the top of the SEC with recruiting classes that are not a reflection of that, but some how he comes out of that scenario with the perception that he can't recruit AND that his team's underachieve while either regressing or not developing talent. ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS ... can't have it both ways in reality, but in agenda-perception world that narrative thrives. 

* Other than a 2-3 year stretch against KY, the Hogs have been clobbered by the 'Cats and Florida in terms of head-to-head wins and losses. This is frustrating to the fanbase, and I think CMA is as much to fault as any other thing you can point to for this lack of success against the two biggest name brands in the league. His teams don't play with confiedence in these games and often times do more damage to their own chances than the opposition does -- I saw this last night at BWA -- and to me that is on the coach.

* Back to the postseason results. So much is about matchups, locale, and some luck. Arkansas went from a program that had not won its first-round SECT game for 5 consecutive seasons (last 3 Pel, first 2 CMA with Pel's wreckage) to having the 2nd-most SECT wins in the last 4 SECTs next to the 'Cats who own that event ... followed by 2-1 in first-round games and 0-2 in second-round games in the NCAAT. Bad luck to draw a UNC team twice given that in '14-15 UNC was clearly under-seeded relative to its talent and made it to the Sweet 16 before losing to a Wisconsin team that beat undefeated KY in the Final Four to advance to the title game, and in '16-17 UNC was on its way to winning the Natty after the refs helped them get past the Hogs to the Sweet 16. Meanwhile SCar -- a team Arkansas beat on the road late in SEC play that forced a two-way tie for 3rd in the league -- gets a better NCAAT seed even though the two team's resumes were arguably equitable, SCar also gets to play closer to home, gets more favorable matchups, gets to the Final Four. Those aren't excuses, those are realities. In '17-18, team probably underachieved relative to talent and experience, but bad team chemistry, divided lockerroom, no clear leader on that team, so in a sense CMA did wonders to put them in position for a Top 4 finish in a STRONG SEC. Nobody wants to play Butler, but I actually fault CMA and players equally for that performance -- his team was not ready, not hungy, not worthy against Butler and that falls on him as the Head Hog. But throw in the NIT in '13-14, and CMA is 3-1 in first-round postseason games. Also including NIT, CMA's Arkansas are 0-3 in 2nd round, but again getting UNC twice at that juncture was going to spell L for just about every team that would have drawn that matchup in those seasons.

* Let's get back to the "no losing seasons" thing and why it shouldn't be a punchline. In Billy Donovan's last season at FLA, his team suffered mass turnover for a variety of reasons and he suffered a losing record. No, that does not make the two coaches equal or BD inferior relative to CMA's no-losing records, but my point is two-fold: 1. Roster management is no longer easy for any program in this era of one-and-dones, mass transfers when playing time and roles don't happen right away, injuries/health related issues, etc. ... and 2. Almost no coach is immune from a down enough season to lead to a losing record, so IMO it says a lot about CMA's ability to get his teams to buy-in, believe in him, develop players, and get them to the winner's circle even against the odds. He does not get enough credit for this. 2015-16 could have been a 10-win season, but was damn near a 20-win NCAAT season.

* Analysis: Is CMA a "great" coach? No. Is he a "really good coach"? Some might say yes, but I lean toward him being somewhere between "good" and "really good." He's fixed 3 broken programs, taking both UAB and Missouri to some of the best results in those programs' histories while having relevant postseason success at both stops. He's returned a faltering Arkansas program back to near the top of the SEC, and though that includes getting back to NCAATs and regardless of some bad draws once there, he's repeatedly missed out on profund league success (titles) and national success (i.e. rankings, second weekend / Sweet 16). IMO, he's exactly what Arkansas needed to lift the program out of the depths it had fallen into under the collective runs of Heath/Pel, and though I don't think it's a fact or a reasonably proven postulate that he's reached his potential for how far he can advance the program, I do not blame fans for believing that he has hit his ceiling.

Are we to take from all of this the standard is now better than Heath and Pelphrey?
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2019, 04:07:57 pm »

Three things Mike hasn't done at Arkansas:

1) tournament success

2) getting ranked in the Top 25

3) roster management

The reason this team is so young, is because of his poor roster management. A lot of that has to do with the disastrous 2015 offseason, probably the worst in the country. Some Mike's fault, some was bad luck.

4) hasn't returned us to nationally relevancy

5) hasn't brought back the consistently highly attended, raucous crowds to BWA
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2019, 04:14:55 pm »

Are we to take from all of this the standard is now better than Heath and Pelphrey?

No. I went with facts to make points that are subjective. I'm not trying to suggest what the standard should be, just trying to inject some reality into a subject that some take punch-lines and skewed talking points and try to force those things into being reality.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:26:36 pm by Kevin McPherson »
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EasyRider81

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2019, 04:21:20 pm »

I love college ball and can't help but get my hopes up at times under Anderson. Reality though is we will just be above average at best playing an outdated style of ball. Didn't even watch the game last night, not really vested in watching anymore this year either.
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 04:25:36 pm »

Florida has been the SEC's second best program during Mike's tenure.

Yes, and no. Florida was among the 5 best programs in the country when CMA came in to take over a weak-SEC bottom-feeder. When you look at the last 4-plus seasons in the SEC, FL and Arkansas have been tit-for-tat with Arkansas holding a slight edge in many categories that would be argued against the Hogs if the numbers were reversed (i.e. if FL had the better overall record, better SEC record, better SEC road record, better SECT results, more NCAAT appearances) ... it's fair to say that because Florida reached an Elite Eight that tips the last 4-plus seasons in the Gators' favor over Arkansas, just remember that happened in the same season that Arkansas may have been good enough to get there, too, but got the worst draw and some ref-aided BS against the eventual national champion.
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jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2019, 04:28:42 pm »

just remember that happened in the same season that Arkansas may have been good enough to get there, too, but got the worst draw and some ref-aided BS against the eventual national champion.

Talk about skewing some reality.
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The_Iceman

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2019, 04:32:28 pm »

4) hasn't returned us to nationally relevancy

5) hasn't brought back the consistently highly attended, raucous crowds to BWA

Your #4 is basically my #1 and #2. Same thing. People think that judging Mike by wins means something. Total wins doesnt mean anything when factoring national relevancy. Its tournament success and being in the Top 25.

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2019, 04:36:47 pm »

Seems like the standards were higher at Mizzou than Arkansas. And MA's teams were much better at Mizzou.

bhogs05

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2019, 04:37:45 pm »

In 8 years you can get a pretty good idea what our teams will look like..I think it's safe to say that the highest expectation is to make it to the 2nd round of the tourney and then the other years either be a NIT team or miss tourney all together.  Mike isn't an elite recruiter or good enough coach to get us to the next level, which would be a sweet 16 team.

Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2019, 04:39:21 pm »

Yes, and no. Florida was among the 5 best programs in the country when CMA came in to take over a weak-SEC bottom-feeder. When you look at the last 4-plus seasons in the SEC, FL and Arkansas have been tit-for-tat with Arkansas holding a slight edge in many categories that would be argued against the Hogs if the numbers were reversed (i.e. if FL had the better overall record, better SEC record, better SEC road record, better SECT results, more NCAAT appearances) ... it's fair to say that because Florida reached an Elite Eight that tips the last 4-plus seasons in the Gators' favor over Arkansas, just remember that happened in the same season that Arkansas may have been good enough to get there, too, but got the worst draw and some ref-aided BS against the eventual national champion.

I'm going to cherry pick the last 3 seasons.   :)
Florida has won 34 SEC games (while playing UK twice each season).  Hogs 31.
Finished ranked 23rd and 20th.  Hogs 0.
Has gone to the E8 and R32.  Hogs R32 and a 17pt first round loss. 
15-16 season Fl in NIT QF.  Hogs no postseason.
Beaten the Hogs by 4, 9 and 15 plus the latest 6 pt win.

We have to get that 14-15 season in there to put the Hogs ahead.  Although, Florida did beat the Hogs that season.

When you take in the entire Anderson era, we know it isn't close.  I get why we want to focus specifically on that window from 14-15 through last season.  We need that anomaly of a Gator season to be included along with our "big" season. 

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Oliver

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2019, 04:41:45 pm »

I’m not sure where our program standards are in every area.  When it comes to being competitive in sports, you could probably clear our bar even if you couldn’t jump over a quarter.   I dread the day that Dave Van Horn retires because we may be competitively irrelevant in all 3 major sports
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2019, 04:45:29 pm »

Talk about skewing some reality.

Really, which part of that is out of touch with reality? UNC won the title, national folks (not simply Arkansas homers) referred to the late ref influence as "program" calls that significantly helped UNC survive and advance to the second weekend. Granted, Arkansas missed some opportunities to win, but the eventual national champs PLUS-3 is hard to defeat. Florida was a 4-seed that in the Sweet 16 faced an 8-seed in Wisconsin and won by a point in OT instead of facing the 1-seed that typically reaches the Sweet 16, so the Gators were always the highest-seeded team in NCAAT games it played that season, including their Elite Eight loss against No. 7 seed SCar.

It goes to my overall point that matchups, breaks, and some luck play into postseason success. UNC was a bad draw for anybody, only magnified by getting the blue-blood treatment by the refs in a game that Arkansas looked to be taking control of in the closing minutes.

Hogeyeblind

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2019, 04:46:19 pm »


IMO, he's exactly what Arkansas needed to lift the program out of the depths it had fallen into under the collective runs of Heath/Pel, and though I don't think it's a fact or a reasonably proven postulate that he's reached his potential for how far he can advance the program, I do not blame fans for believing that he has hit his ceiling.


And the last sentence sums up where the majority of what's left of the fanbase is.  Fastest 40, pressing, etc is a distant vision of a bygone era.  We are better off than we were 8 years ago no doubt but the ceiling has been met.

Kevin

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2019, 04:49:12 pm »

Being .500 or above at a sec school is not that hard. The non conference should get you 10-11 wins most years, that means just get 6 or 7 more wins and you over .500

Just a talking point brought up to mask the other numbers.

Notice last night one of the youngest teams in the country is Virginia.
Nc state has 9 new guys.

Anderson has treaded water here at Arkansas because heath/pel put the bar so low.

Atlhogfan1

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2019, 04:50:44 pm »

Really, which part of that is out of touch with reality? UNC won the title, national folks (not simply Arkansas homers) referred to the late ref influence as "program" calls that significantly helped UNC survive and advance to the second weekend. Granted, Arkansas missed some opportunities to win, but the eventual national champs PLUS-3 is hard to defeat. Florida was a 4-seed that in the Sweet 16 faced an 8-seed in Wisconsin and won by a point in OT instead of facing the 1-seed that typically reaches the Sweet 16, so the Gators were always the highest-seeded team in NCAAT games it played that season, including their Elite Eight loss against No. 7 seed SCar.

It goes to my overall point that matchups, breaks, and some luck play into postseason success. UNC was a bad draw for anybody, only magnified by getting the blue-blood treatment by the refs in a game that Arkansas looked to be taking control of in the closing minutes.

I agree with your point on this. 

jst01

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2019, 04:59:11 pm »

Really, which part of that is out of touch with reality? UNC won the title, national folks (not simply Arkansas homers) referred to the late ref influence as "program" calls that significantly helped UNC survive and advance to the second weekend. Granted, Arkansas missed some opportunities to win, but the eventual national champs PLUS-3 is hard to defeat. Florida was a 4-seed that in the Sweet 16 faced an 8-seed in Wisconsin and won by a point in OT instead of facing the 1-seed that typically reaches the Sweet 16, so the Gators were always the highest-seeded team in NCAAT games it played that season, including their Elite Eight loss against No. 7 seed SCar.

It goes to my overall point that matchups, breaks, and some luck play into postseason success. UNC was a bad draw for anybody, only magnified by getting the blue-blood treatment by the refs in a game that Arkansas looked to be taking control of in the closing minutes.

It’s a big stretch to say AR maybe was Elite 8 quality if not for bad draw, bad seeding and terrible refs. Winning games they should win during February would keep them from slipping in as a 8/9 seed.

BannerMountainMan

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2019, 05:02:12 pm »

It’s a big stretch to say AR maybe was Elite 8 quality if not for bad draw, bad seeding and terrible refs. Winning games they should win during February would keep them from slipping in as a 8/9 seed.
Arkansas has had a bad draw in all three years they have made it that far, Florida was ahead of them last year in seeding and Arkansas obviously had a better record, RPI and SOS last year, Arkansas shouldn’t of been an 8/9 seed in 2016 for sure.
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2019, 05:23:08 pm »

I'm going to cherry pick the last 3 seasons.   :)
Florida has won 34 SEC games (while playing UK twice each season).  Hogs 31.
Finished ranked 23rd and 20th.  Hogs 0.
Has gone to the E8 and R32.  Hogs R32 and a 17pt first round loss. 
15-16 season Fl in NIT QF.  Hogs no postseason.
Beaten the Hogs by 4, 9 and 15 plus the latest 6 pt win.

We have to get that 14-15 season in there to put the Hogs ahead.  Although, Florida did beat the Hogs that season.

When you take in the entire Anderson era, we know it isn't close.  I get why we want to focus specifically on that window from 14-15 through last season.  We need that anomaly of a Gator season to be included along with our "big" season.

You are cherry-picking. The '14-15 season is a relevant starting point because it was Arkansas's first season back to the NCAAT after a 6-year drought and because since then Arkansas has maintained a level of SEC, SECT, and even NCAAT success. And don't forget, the 4-plus years ALSO includes Arkansas's bump in '15-16 (16-16, 9-9) that skews the program's overall success of '14-15, '16-17, and '17-18.

But, only '14-15 is a FL "anomaly", while '15-16 not an "anomaly" for Arkansas? Point is, both teams had poor seasons in that span so it cuts both ways when looking at the previous 4-plus-year data.

Let's not pretend that my rather-lengthy breakdown didn't acknowledge relevant facts -- i.e. Arkansas's lack of NCAAT runs, lack of national rankings, lack of head-to-head success against both KY and FLA, and FLA's Elite Eight run -- so there was no cherry-picking and no convenient witholding of "harmful" facts.

I'm not arguing that Arkansas has been the better program compared to Florida in the past 4-plus seasons when taking everything into consideration, I'm saying that many significant factors -- total wins, SEC record, SEC road record, SECT total wins and finals appearances, number of NCAAT appearances -- put Arkansas second only to Kentucky, and collectively those are all relevant categories that make a strong case for the Hogs as the second-best SEC program in that span.

One more thing that I didn't get to but will regarding Arkansas's combined record against both Kentucky and Florida in the past 4 seasons plus Wednesday night's loss against the Gators ... while the Hogs have gone only 1-13 combined against KY and FL in that span, only 4 of those games have been played at BWA, 4 in the SECT, and 6 on the road. But again, as stated as my opinion in my OP ITT, that run is a reflection of CMA as much if not more than any other factors.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:46:44 pm by Kevin McPherson »
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Sivad

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2019, 05:23:23 pm »

My Contract Law professor, Wylie Davis, would have referred to that as “puffery.”
Ole Wylie - the “Carbolic Smokeball”.
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PharmacistHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2019, 05:46:58 pm »

I have posted before that the standard by which a Razorback basketball coach should be judged is that established first by Eddie Sutton and then built on by Nolan Richardson.

There is a whole lot of ground between "should be judged" and "is judged."

Posters keep saying that Mike "has had eight years," as if there is some standard, some expectation, that he has yet to meet.

Maybe not. Maybe the standard of the Razorback basketball program is now, "run it cleanly, win 20 games, and make the NCAA Tournament." If so, that standard is being met. Maybe Jump Ball is living in a time warp, expecting results that the powers-that-be, the decision-makers, do not. If that is the standard, Mike's departure for whatever reason would not make a whole lot of difference.

Time will tell. Maybe it already is.

My personal standard for a program is "do I care enough that it feels like a gut punch when we lose".  Unfortunately, right now, the losses don't even sting a little anymore.  If we win, great.  If we don't, oh well, let's have another beer and I'm hungry. 

Kevin McPherson

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2019, 06:06:10 pm »

It’s a big stretch to say AR maybe was Elite 8 quality if not for bad draw, bad seeding and terrible refs. Winning games they should win during February would keep them from slipping in as a 8/9 seed.

Actually, that's not a big stretch at all. SCar was a 7-seed, Arkansas an 8. Arkansas had a much better finish in Feb '16-17 than SCar, and there was talk by some NCAAT bracketologists that Arkansas could get better than an 8-seed and play in Tulsa (close to home), but Scar not only got the better seed it got the close-to-home bracket playing in Greenville, SC. Those things matter. It would be a stretch to say Arkansas definitely would have been an Elite Eight or Final Four team if not for those factors, but seeing what Arkansas did to NC (who was also closer to home) playing in Greenville it's not a stretch to think a slighly better bid and closer-to-home locale could have meant a run for that Hog team.

rtr

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2019, 07:01:05 pm »

I have detected less tolerance among the fanbase for what might Mike has produced over the years.  Whether it matters or not, time will tell.

Mike has produced a consistent product, his best years will produce an 8-9 NCAA seed with double digit losses.  His worst teams will be NIT bound.  Not a whole lot of difference, very consistent.  Clearly Eddie and Nolan elevated standards above what they are now.  I know we play some really terrible basketball at times.  It is sad.
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hobhog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2019, 07:04:47 pm »

what do you mean getting ranked? If you mean like hasn’t at all, you’re wrong, he has been ranked in three different seasons.

Please....
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navyhog24

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2019, 07:17:23 pm »

We just need to give Mike even more time to get his players here. We just need to be patient and he might get us into the NCAAT again in a few years. Wait 'til next year. 

[Sarcasm]

BannerMountainMan

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2019, 07:24:08 pm »

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hawgdavis

Re: Program Standards
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2019, 07:36:44 pm »

I guess I look at it this way. Under Eddie and Nolan except the last 2-3 years of their careers at Arkansas as a fan you expected to make the tournament every year but also felt you had a legit chance to make deep runs even final 4 type runs once there. Being ranked was a given and conference titles were not unexpected but to a degree expected. That’s what I grew up on and no mike hasn’t quite lived up to that standard and unfortunately I don’t think he will. I sure do like him cause he seems like a really good man, cares about his guys and from all accounts runs a clean program. 

Just my $.02

26.2Hog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2019, 08:18:38 pm »

what do you mean getting ranked? If you mean like hasn’t at all, you’re wrong, he has been ranked in three different seasons.

Hey, I appreciate that you are a loyal MA aficionado and apologist.

Don't know about all polls, but Hogs have been ranked only two years during the season in the AP poll with Mike.

But as every coach will also tell you, it's not how you are ranked early on, it's how you finish that matters.

And the Hogs have finished ONE time in the top 25 under MA, in what will soon be 8 years.

That's pretty weak for our program.

WilsonHog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2019, 08:42:17 pm »

My personal standard for a program is "do I care enough that it feels like a gut punch when we lose".  Unfortunately, right now, the losses don't even sting a little anymore.  If we win, great.  If we don't, oh well, let's have another beer and I'm hungry.

Well, you make a good point. I remember being in Barnhill in the winter of ‘83, watching the Razorback team led by Joe Kleine, Alvin Robertson, and Darrell Walker play Phi Slamma Jamma. Left my seat during the second half to throw up. I remember being in McNichol Arena during the 1990 Final Four and beating my seat so hard with my fists that I thought I had broken a knuckle. I still get that way; I did last June in Omaha.

No longer about football or basketball, though. I watched all of the game last night, but never with any more emotion or upset than if I had been watching Indiana and Michigan play.

(Typing this made me recall my most vivid memory of that ‘83 Houston game. Darrell Walker, a senior, talked crap all week about Alvin Franklin, the ‘Coogs’ freshman point guard. First possession of the game, Franklin stole the ball from Walker for a break-away slam. That was a taste of things to come that evening.)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:04:09 pm by WilsonHog »
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oldbooniehog

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Re: Program Standards
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2019, 09:00:40 pm »

If "the standard" for Arkansas basketball is now "win 20, stay clean and make the NCAA tourney....sometimes" then some folks in the U of A Athletic Department are really, really bad at math.

This article shows Mike Anderson is the 25th-highest-paid college basketball coach in the country.

https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/sports/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-14774331

Article is from November 2018, so pretty current.

The "win 20, keep it clean, and make the NCAA Tourney....sometimes" standard is not a "Top 25 program" standard.

If that's the standard now, why are we paying "Top 25 program" money for it?
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