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Author Topic: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on  (Read 4620 times)

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tusked

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Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« on: December 05, 2018, 05:32:20 pm »


247 ?  All four of these players were 4* and are now 3*.

Not looking for a conspiracy but did they not have very good seasons or what happened.


Zach Williams
Dante Walker
Eric Gregory
Adonis Otey

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PharmacistHog

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 05:36:19 pm »

I was thinking zach williams was the only one on composite that was a 4*
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tusked

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 05:40:59 pm »

I was thinking zach williams was the only one on composite that was a 4*

Nope, all four.  Walker was a top 20 DE at one time.  Gregory had been sitting as a 4* for most of the season and Otey was a 4* until he committed.

Again my question is why?

I didn't follow Williams season, did he play out of position or for those that watched him play was he a little overrated over the summer?
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RockyMtnHog

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 05:57:00 pm »

Its because they committed to Arkansas.  Lowering our recruiting class.

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 05:57:03 pm »

They probably didn't move down. Other guys just moved up.

redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 06:06:49 pm »

247 ?  All four of these players were 4* and are now 3*.

Not looking for a conspiracy but did they not have very good seasons or what happened.


Zach Williams
Dante Walker
Eric Gregory
Adonis Otey

I'm pretty sure these were all once 4 star composites also.  I know for a fact that Dante Walker was one, because after he committed, and then immediately lost his 4th star, I began keeping personal notes on rating changes for our players.

Like most of us, I only pay attention to the composite score, so that's how I know they were composite 4 stars.

ricepig

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 06:09:14 pm »

247 ?  All four of these players were 4* and are now 3*.

Not looking for a conspiracy but did they not have very good seasons or what happened.


Zach Williams
Dante Walker
Eric Gregory
Adonis Otey



Because not enough Arkansas fans have subscriptions on 24/7.

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 06:11:44 pm »


Did anyone watch Williams play this season?  I didn't hear much about him, did he play as well as everyone thought he was?
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presidenthog

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 06:17:48 pm »

247 ?  All four of these players were 4* and are now 3*.

Not looking for a conspiracy but did they not have very good seasons or what happened.


Zach Williams
Dante Walker
Eric Gregory
Adonis Otey

Williams is not a 4 star on rivals. Which hurts him. Eric Gregory has BLOWN up in size. He is a DT for us. Not a DE. So that hurt his grade i am sure. He moves like a DT, not a DE.

Adonis was dropping before he committed here because of poor camp performances, and questions about his speed.

Dante lost his star ranking because of espn.

Williams is a suprise to me though

Oklahawg

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 06:59:45 pm »

Another piece of evidence to watch offer sheets and where they appear to rank in our own class (ie, when they received their offer, how hard they are pushed for a commitment) vs. getting all bent on the evals of guys selling subscriptions and providing rankings based on something besides their own coaching acumen.

I am a cynic about this, obviously.

It is pretty easy for a starter, especially a two-year starter, to come up with a 4-minute highlight film. It is pretty easy for a kid to work towards camp and combine performances in the summer (ie, maximizing strength and speed training) that produce the "measureables."

Number one way to measure a kid might be offers - would Alabama, Oklahoma, Clemson, or Notre Dame want a player? I want that player.

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 07:06:27 pm »

They probably didn't move down. Other guys just moved up.

This, you can't have 500 4 stars. 375ish is still way to many IMO

Number one way to measure a kid might be offers - would Alabama, Oklahoma, Clemson, or Notre Dame want a player? I want that player.

Not every offer is the same and there is no way to tell uf someone actually has an offer. Kid could say he has an offer but not have one.
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OS2 (SW) Razor Back

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 07:25:20 pm »

Who cares? Knock em all down a notch for all I care. Their Hogs now (ish).

redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 07:59:09 pm »

Number one way to measure a kid might be offers - would Alabama, Oklahoma, Clemson, or Notre Dame want a player? I want that player.

This is what matters the most to me, but then those schools "offer" everyone these days, so I'm not even sure how much that's worth anymore.  It obviously means more if we know those offers are committable and therefore authentic.

They probably didn't move down. Other guys just moved up.

Some of them definitely moved down.  In today's update, KJ was the only player to move up, while 7 other future Hogs received lower ratings.  I forgot to keep a tally on Alabama, but it seemed like most of theirs moved up today, although they did have some who moved down.

Also, even though we didn't move in the rankings, we actually lost points in this update for the 247 Composite.
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hview

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2018, 08:53:33 pm »

Does the star rating matter that much? Everyone of these guys has a very strong offer list.
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redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 11:47:48 pm »

Does the star rating matter that much? Everyone of these guys has a very strong offer list.

31to6

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 12:20:40 am »

Dante Walker was definitely a 4* when he committed:
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/10/7/17949474/4-star-de-dante-walker-commits-to-arkansas

He was a 4* on all services when he committed. Now he is a 3* on 247 and 247 composite, 4* on Rivals and 4* on ESPN. He did drop in position ranking on Rivals recently.

Eric Gregory was a 4* on Rivals and ESPN when he committed. 247 had him as a 3* the day he committed, but he had been a consensus 4* earlier in April:
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/football/2018/07/23/4-star-recruit-eric-gregory-flips-commitment-memphis-arkansas/823543002/

Adonis Otey was also a 4* per 247 when he committed.
https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/arkansas-football/razorbacks-stay-hot-in-recruiting-as-4-star-tennessee-athlete-adonis-otey-commits-to-arkansas/

But he did drop and I remember that. 247 has him rated as a very low 3* (85) now which is pulling his composite down. He is still a 4* per ESPN and Rivals.

So the case in all 3 is that 247's rating is much lower than Rivals or ESPN, FWIW.


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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 01:28:20 am »

They probably didn't move down. Other guys just moved up.
I have not clue about stars, but is there a limit concerning how many can have 4* at one time?
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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 01:29:19 am »

Does the star rating matter that much? Everyone of these guys has a very strong offer list.
oh boy.....
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redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 01:58:26 am »

Dante Walker was definitely a 4* when he committed:
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/10/7/17949474/4-star-de-dante-walker-commits-to-arkansas

He was a 4* on all services when he committed. Now he is a 3* on 247 and 247 composite, 4* on Rivals and 4* on ESPN. He did drop in position ranking on Rivals recently.

Eric Gregory was a 4* on Rivals and ESPN when he committed. 247 had him as a 3* the day he committed, but he had been a consensus 4* earlier in April:
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/football/2018/07/23/4-star-recruit-eric-gregory-flips-commitment-memphis-arkansas/823543002/

Adonis Otey was also a 4* per 247 when he committed.
https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/arkansas-football/razorbacks-stay-hot-in-recruiting-as-4-star-tennessee-athlete-adonis-otey-commits-to-arkansas/

But he did drop and I remember that. 247 has him rated as a very low 3* (85) now which is pulling his composite down. He is still a 4* per ESPN and Rivals.

So the case in all 3 is that 247's rating is much lower than Rivals or ESPN, FWIW.

Solid proof!

Using your method, here's proof that Zach Williams was a 247 4* when he committed.  Not only that, but Williams was actually #234 in the Top-247 on that service.  He's now #246 and #391 in the composite.

https://247sports.com/Article/Four-star-defensive-end-Zach-Williams-commits-to-the-Arkansas-Razorbacks-119595978/

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 05:41:30 am »

They probably didn't move down. Other guys just moved up.
Sorry, but that just doesn't make a lot of sense. I know some states are still having their playoffs but how can one or two games carry more weight than that of a 10th, 11th and Senior year combined ? This happens to Arkansas all the time. Cobi Hamilton was a 4 star when he had verbally committed to Texas and when Petrino flipped him away from Mack Brown and the Horns he became a 3 star. The recruits of programs who buy more memberships to these ranking websites get the better rankings. How do you think Notre Dame went 10 years with minimal success (this year excluded) and had 5 stars littered all over their recruiting sheet ? It's called selling your product and we are small state with few who buy that crap compared to others. So naturally, we're going to get the butt end of the mule.

blu

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 06:37:04 am »

It's called selling your product and we are small state with few who buy that crap compared to others. So naturally, we're going to get the butt end of the mule.

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 09:22:12 am »

The idea that they didn't move down, others moved up is not logical for our situation. Some should move up and some should move down. Should be 50/50. Have we had any move up? saw KJ did, but seems like we always have more move down after they commit to us than move up. Also not being a conspiracy theorist, but there should be proof where our recruits have gone over the years, Maybe some who like to get in the stats could research it. Unfortunately, I have to try to get some work done, or at least look like it today  8)
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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2018, 11:26:54 am »

They got bumped down because they chose Arkansas.  It's happened before and will again. It's like they subtract points for your decision making ability if you pick U of A.

redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2018, 11:58:56 am »

The idea that they didn't move down, others moved up is not logical for our situation. Some should move up and some should move down. Should be 50/50. Have we had any move up? saw KJ did, but seems like we always have more move down after they commit to us than move up. Also not being a conspiracy theorist, but there should be proof where our recruits have gone over the years, Maybe some who like to get in the stats could research it. Unfortunately, I have to try to get some work done, or at least look like it today  8)

My hypothesis is that they mostly evaluate players who sign with big programs, so only those players see a lot of movement.  In order for those players to move up, that means players at smaller programs must fall.  So a program like Arkansas will mostly see players fall, so they can make room for players at Alabama.
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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2018, 12:34:14 pm »

247 ?  All four of these players were 4* and are now 3*.

Not looking for a conspiracy but did they not have very good seasons or what happened.


Zach Williams
Dante Walker
Eric Gregory
Adonis Otey

Because ESPN hates us

ricepig

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2018, 12:36:42 pm »

PharmacistHog

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2018, 12:52:51 pm »

CBS, too!

And the SEC and Home Depot. 

Hoginsavga

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2018, 03:26:02 pm »

Who cares? Knock em all down a notch for all I care. Their Hogs now (ish).

This is the way I see it. They are still the same players they were on the day they committed to us. Actually it could work in our favor as they my not be as much in demand and less likely to decommit. Correct me if Iím missing something.
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lakecityhog

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 03:44:12 pm »

This, you can't have 500 4 stars. 375ish is still way to many IMO

Not every offer is the same and there is no way to tell uf someone actually has an offer. Kid could say he has an offer but not have one.

The bolded concept is absolutely STUPID! For a company that "rates" football players to set an arbitrary cap on the number of players that are of a given "star" quality is completely idiotic!!!

Here's a number for you -----1,036,842

That is the number of boys that played "11 player" football in school year 2017-2018 and from a bit over 1 MILLION boys only 500 are of 4* quality? How many of you would even consider that only 1 tenth of 1% of all players in America are worthy of a 4* rating?   (1,036,842 divided by 3 for 10th, 11th and 12th grades)

These companies actually rate what 1,000 players or .2% of the available pool, what if it is 10,000 kids rated? That comes out to ALMOST 3% of the available pool.

One last thing to consider, does a coach know which kid fits his system better or a ratings service? What good is a 5* O'Lineman that is the best run blocker in the country but is too slow to run a hurry up offense to a hurry up team? What good is a 4* fullback to a 1 back offense?

The key is to get the best quality athlete that FITS your system and then DEVELOP him over his entire career.

Boardon Hamsay

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 06:46:25 pm »

The bolded concept is absolutely STUPID! For a company that "rates" football players to set an arbitrary cap on the number of players that are of a given "star" quality is completely idiotic!!!

Here's a number for you -----1,036,842

That is the number of boys that played "11 player" football in school year 2017-2018 and from a bit over 1 MILLION boys only 500 are of 4* quality? How many of you would even consider that only 1 tenth of 1% of all players in America are worthy of a 4* rating?   (1,036,842 divided by 3 for 10th, 11th and 12th grades)

These companies actually rate what 1,000 players or .2% of the available pool, what if it is 10,000 kids rated? That comes out to ALMOST 3% of the available pool.

One last thing to consider, does a coach know which kid fits his system better or a ratings service? What good is a 5* O'Lineman that is the best run blocker in the country but is too slow to run a hurry up offense to a hurry up team? What good is a 4* fullback to a 1 back offense?

The key is to get the best quality athlete that FITS your system and then DEVELOP him over his entire career.

I tend to agree. I donít follow recruiting much, especially the star system. However, I have to think itís comparable to a stock market analyst. An analyst is typically covering a sector or industry, letís say autos. That analyst then, despite how well or poor the auto industry is performing, needs to have a certain number of buy, sell, and hold ratings with the auto industry.
So, GM may be a buy because itís the best even though the industry blows right now, Ford may be a hold on day but the become a sell the next because Tesla reported a better quarter,

The top line number of players is huge, as you noted, to only have very few 5 and 4 stars. I get though how and why the numbers tend to lean quota based, right or wrong, just to maintain smaller manageable numbers.

I also equate it similarly to Beckett pricing of baseball cards in the 1990s. Because the business became a ton of subsets to collect, pricing guides started pricing only elite player cards in the main and then started lumping more players into one ďminor starĒ price or one ďcommonĒ card price. I donít agree with it because it becomes subjective and about herding but I get it.

redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2018, 07:01:29 pm »

...
One last thing to consider, does a coach know which kid fits his system better or a ratings service? What good is a 5* O'Lineman that is the best run blocker in the country but is too slow to run a hurry up offense to a hurry up team? What good is a 4* fullback to a 1 back offense?

The key is to get the best quality athlete that FITS your system and then DEVELOP him over his entire career.

IIRC, rating services actually judge each team on how well they filled their needs and then use that in their point systems for the team ranking.  I never liked that.
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31to6

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2018, 11:56:38 pm »

IIRC, rating services actually judge each team on how well they filled their needs and then use that in their point systems for the team ranking.  I never liked that.
Neither Rivals nor 247 do this. The rankings are pure math.

247 has a calculator and you can fill a class with 29 WRs and it will be just as highly rated as one that is balanced.

Rivals has a complicated formula that they do not publish but which was leaked a few years ago. [There is an old post here that has it if you are truly curious.] The thing that differentiates the two is that 247 considers all positions equal. So a .8950 4* QB is worth just as much as a .8950 4* FB. Rivals, however, gives more weight to certain impact positions [OTs are worth more than OGs. MLBs are worth more than OLBs. QBs are worth the most. DTs and WRs are also highly weighted. And so on.]

But in both cases the rankings are just a mathematical formula and the individual team's "positions of need" have no bearing on class rankings.

I have no idea how ESPN ranks classes except that their ranking is heavily predicated on the # of ESPN 300 recruits. Their position is that what really matters are the 4 or 5 true elite players on the field and the rest of the dudes are pretty interchangeable.
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redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 01:18:13 am »

Neither Rivals nor 247 do this. The rankings are pure math.

247 has a calculator and you can fill a class with 29 WRs and it will be just as highly rated as one that is balanced.

Rivals has a complicated formula that they do not publish but which was leaked a few years ago. [There is an old post here that has it if you are truly curious.] The thing that differentiates the two is that 247 considers all positions equal. So a .8950 4* QB is worth just as much as a .8950 4* FB. Rivals, however, gives more weight to certain impact positions [OTs are worth more than OGs. MLBs are worth more than OLBs. QBs are worth the most. DTs and WRs are also highly weighted. And so on.]

But in both cases the rankings are just a mathematical formula and the individual team's "positions of need" have no bearing on class rankings.

I have no idea how ESPN ranks classes except that their ranking is heavily predicated on the # of ESPN 300 recruits. Their position is that what really matters are the 4 or 5 true elite players on the field and the rest of the dudes are pretty interchangeable.

I think Rivals did use team needs long ago, but I'll take your word that they don't anymore.  That's what I remember, anyhow.
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tusked

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 08:01:18 am »


So when the CM haters are constantly pounding that the recruiting class is in the bottom half of the SEC they'll understand that it's actually 'subjective'?

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Iwastherein1969

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2018, 09:12:03 am »

The idea that they didn't move down, others moved up is not logical for our situation. Some should move up and some should move down. Should be 50/50. Have we had any move up? saw KJ did, but seems like we always have more move down after they commit to us than move up. Also not being a conspiracy theorist, but there should be proof where our recruits have gone over the years, Maybe some who like to get in the stats could research it. Unfortunately, I have to try to get some work done, or at least look like it today  8)
no conspiracy to it...ranking services sell a product...so they try to please their 'target market' as much as possible...to say that the state of Arkansas is a market rich environment for the monthly crap that these websites sell would be the overstatement of the century

Iwastherein1969

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2018, 09:19:37 am »

So when the CM haters are constantly pounding that the recruiting class is in the bottom half of the SEC they'll understand that it's actually 'subjective'?
I don't hate Morris, I just don't think he has what it takes to be successful in the SEC. JMO.  It's also my opinion that the energy that he exudes by drinking Red Bull like there's no tomorrow sorta presented to the GOBN and those who do the hiring on The Hill that "man, does this guy have some go gettem' type of energy, just what we need, here" What we need here is a great CEO who can hire talented assistants to teach fundamentals. That's the type of coach we need. All of the "hammer down"/"full tilt boogie" crapola is just that, crapola.
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hawgfan4life

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2018, 10:13:18 am »

I have said in many posts that the star rankings are skewed, biased, or whatever fans want to call them.  I have seen it first hand where a coach from a school asks a kid who has offered.  They immediately offer based on the fact others have offered.  I have literally heard coaches say if they are offering, we are offering too.  Ratings are based on who is offering as much or more than who has been rated.  Thousands of kids around the country go to combines in their local area or region.  People doing the rating tend to only go to those combines in their local region.  How can a person do a rating of 300 players for one position when they have physically laid eyes on a dozen or so of the already projected top players.  If they are really serious, they may watch video of a hundred or so others.  In the best case, they never laid eye in person on the high majority and they never watched video on half to 75% of the athletes that are being rated for that position. (Some guys doing ratings may do more diligence than this, but most are selling their recruiting subscription more than they are traveling and watching players.  In fairness to them, they have to pay for what traveling they do and other costs.  A rater doesn't have to know much about players to see who has offered and make a ranking.  Say you have a player offered by AL, GA, and Clemson among other top schools, another offered by Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina among other similar schools, and another offered by Arkansas State, Tulsa, North Texas, and other similar schools.  Which one would you rank, 1,2, and 3 without ever seeing them in person or watching a video?  The problem is that there are a lot of players out there that are overlooked for a variety of reasons and fly under the radar in the ratings because they commit to the school they grew up favoring, they don't go to a lot of combines, but instead go the camp of the school they were interested, and schools that know about them don't offer because they know the kid has his mind made up.  It is what it is and fans shouldn't get too caught up in the ratings just because a bunch of recruits aren't labeled a high whatever or a 4 or 5.  Those that say stars matter use the end results as their proof.  AL signs mostly 4 and 5 stars and compete for a NC and that proves that stars matter.  They fail to see that regardless of what a kid was rated, when AL recruits them and offers them, the raters immediately rate them a 4 unless there are major questions that keep them from a higher rating.There may be another 100 3 star athletes with no real discernable ability that remain a 3 and won't rise to a 4 start because it is Arkansas, Oklahoma State, Kentucky, and etc type schools offering.  Additionally, once an elite school offers, there are usually more offers from top tier schools that follow very quickly.

Iwastherein1969

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2018, 12:52:29 pm »

I have said in many posts that the star rankings are skewed, biased, or whatever fans want to call them.  I have seen it first hand where a coach from a school asks a kid who has offered.  They immediately offer based on the fact others have offered.  I have literally heard coaches say if they are offering, we are offering too.  Ratings are based on who is offering as much or more than who has been rated.  Thousands of kids around the country go to combines in their local area or region.  People doing the rating tend to only go to those combines in their local region.  How can a person do a rating of 300 players for one position when they have physically laid eyes on a dozen or so of the already projected top players.  If they are really serious, they may watch video of a hundred or so others.  In the best case, they never laid eye in person on the high majority and they never watched video on half to 75% of the athletes that are being rated for that position. (Some guys doing ratings may do more diligence than this, but most are selling their recruiting subscription more than they are traveling and watching players.  In fairness to them, they have to pay for what traveling they do and other costs.  A rater doesn't have to know much about players to see who has offered and make a ranking.  Say you have a player offered by AL, GA, and Clemson among other top schools, another offered by Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina among other similar schools, and another offered by Arkansas State, Tulsa, North Texas, and other similar schools.  Which one would you rank, 1,2, and 3 without ever seeing them in person or watching a video?  The problem is that there are a lot of players out there that are overlooked for a variety of reasons and fly under the radar in the ratings because they commit to the school they grew up favoring, they don't go to a lot of combines, but instead go the camp of the school they were interested, and schools that know about them don't offer because they know the kid has his mind made up.  It is what it is and fans shouldn't get too caught up in the ratings just because a bunch of recruits aren't labeled a high whatever or a 4 or 5.  Those that say stars matter use the end results as their proof.  AL signs mostly 4 and 5 stars and compete for a NC and that proves that stars matter.  They fail to see that regardless of what a kid was rated, when AL recruits them and offers them, the raters immediately rate them a 4 unless there are major questions that keep them from a higher rating.There may be another 100 3 star athletes with no real discernable ability that remain a 3 and won't rise to a 4 start because it is Arkansas, Oklahoma State, Kentucky, and etc type schools offering.  Additionally, once an elite school offers, there are usually more offers from top tier schools that follow very quickly.
I agree with the vast majority of what you said. However, don't forget about pandering to your 'target market'.  These services know exactly who buy the crap they peddle. So they tell them what they want to hear and do so in spades because they want that 5.99 or whatever it costs per month put on the buyer's credit card. Why ? Because if you decide you no longer want the crap they peddle they can slow play you for another two or three months (in some cases more) before they cancel your subscription.
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Hawg Law 7

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2018, 02:30:26 pm »

Neither Rivals nor 247 do this. The rankings are pure math.

247 has a calculator and you can fill a class with 29 WRs and it will be just as highly rated as one that is balanced.

Rivals has a complicated formula that they do not publish but which was leaked a few years ago. [There is an old post here that has it if you are truly curious.] The thing that differentiates the two is that 247 considers all positions equal. So a .8950 4* QB is worth just as much as a .8950 4* FB. Rivals, however, gives more weight to certain impact positions [OTs are worth more than OGs. MLBs are worth more than OLBs. QBs are worth the most. DTs and WRs are also highly weighted. And so on.]

But in both cases the rankings are just a mathematical formula and the individual team's "positions of need" have no bearing on class rankings.

I have no idea how ESPN ranks classes except that their ranking is heavily predicated on the # of ESPN 300 recruits. Their position is that what really matters are the 4 or 5 true elite players on the field and the rest of the dudes are pretty interchangeable.

Rivals changed their formula in 2013.  The new formula is really simple, and is posted on their website under FB Team Rankings FAQ.

https://n.rivals.com/news/rivals-com-football-team-recruiting-rankings-formula

31to6

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2018, 02:45:34 pm »

Rivals changed their formula in 2013.  The new formula is really simple, and is posted on their website under FB Team Rankings FAQ.

https://n.rivals.com/news/rivals-com-football-team-recruiting-rankings-formula
Thanks!

It was much more complex in the past.
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Darren DeLoach (semohawg)

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2018, 02:47:35 pm »

I don't hate Morris, I just don't think he has what it takes to be successful in the SEC. JMO.  It's also my opinion that the energy that he exudes by drinking Red Bull like there's no tomorrow sorta presented to the GOBN and those who do the hiring on The Hill that "man, does this guy have some go gettem' type of energy, just what we need, here" What we need here is a great CEO who can hire talented assistants to teach fundamentals. That's the type of coach we need. All of the "hammer down"/"full tilt boogie" crapola is just that, crapola.


A few things:

First your avatar: This isn't 10 years or 20 years, or 30 years ago. I can PASTOR a church in 5 locations in three countries from a single location. The fact this coach has chosen to leave his family behind actually translates into him being able to SPEND MORE TIME attending to the football program. He is currently with his family roughly 4-6 hours a week. From all reports, he spends 16 hours on average a day working on this program in some capacity or the other. If his family was here, it would not allow him to be as diligent as he currently is.

Second: this constant haranguing over his use of phrases. Again, this isn't 1960 or 1970 or 1980, branding and slogans are an intricate part of the everyday life of someone under 30. Not to mention, EVERY leader in any industry populates his speech, his walls, and his life with repeatable mantras to instill whatever culture they are attempting to grow.

3rd: You may be right. Morris may fail, but it will not have anything to do with his work ethic, his family, his phrases, or his energy.

And I disagree with your assessment, I believe that he has the ability to make Arkansas a solid program again.

liljo

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2018, 07:33:19 pm »

A few things:

First your avatar: This isn't 10 years or 20 years, or 30 years ago. I can PASTOR a church in 5 locations in three countries from a single location. The fact this coach has chosen to leave his family behind actually translates into him being able to SPEND MORE TIME attending to the football program. He is currently with his family roughly 4-6 hours a week. From all reports, he spends 16 hours on average a day working on this program in some capacity or the other. If his family was here, it would not allow him to be as diligent as he currently is.

Second: this constant haranguing over his use of phrases. Again, this isn't 1960 or 1970 or 1980, branding and slogans are an intricate part of the everyday life of someone under 30. Not to mention, EVERY leader in any industry populates his speech, his walls, and his life with repeatable mantras to instill whatever culture they are attempting to grow.

3rd: You may be right. Morris may fail, but it will not have anything to do with his work ethic, his family, his phrases, or his energy.

And I disagree with your assessment, I believe that he has the ability to make Arkansas a solid program again.

Thank you for a great post.

hawgfan4life

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2018, 09:03:41 pm »

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. However, don't forget about pandering to your 'target market'.  These services know exactly who buy the crap they peddle. So they tell them what they want to hear and do so in spades because they want that 5.99 or whatever it costs per month put on the buyer's credit card. Why ? Because if you decide you no longer want the crap they peddle they can slow play you for another two or three months (in some cases more) before they cancel your subscription.

Absolutely!  I just didnít add that aspect, but you are correct.
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Iwastherein1969

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2018, 11:49:24 am »

A few things:

First your avatar: This isn't 10 years or 20 years, or 30 years ago. I can PASTOR a church in 5 locations in three countries from a single location. The fact this coach has chosen to leave his family behind actually translates into him being able to SPEND MORE TIME attending to the football program. He is currently with his family roughly 4-6 hours a week. From all reports, he spends 16 hours on average a day working on this program in some capacity or the other. If his family was here, it would not allow him to be as diligent as he currently is.

Second: this constant haranguing over his use of phrases. Again, this isn't 1960 or 1970 or 1980, branding and slogans are an intricate part of the everyday life of someone under 30. Not to mention, EVERY leader in any industry populates his speech, his walls, and his life with repeatable mantras to instill whatever culture they are attempting to grow.

3rd: You may be right. Morris may fail, but it will not have anything to do with his work ethic, his family, his phrases, or his energy.









And I disagree with your assessment, I believe that he has the ability to make Arkansas a solid program again.
Allow me to critique your post about me. (1) About the hat. No you cannot, at least Biblically speaking pastor 5 locations in 3 countries. We are commanded to break bread and commune with the Saints on the first day of the week. You cannot be there, except for one location, when the Saints commune with the Lord's body on Sundays.  I could go further but brevity prevents me to do so. (2)People under 30 rarely put money into the Razorback foundation collection plate but are the first to bitch about uniforms. Also, the "tell a lie, but not just a lie, a big lie, tell it often enough and eventually people will begin to believe it.  Hmmm, wonder where that got started ? Deutschland ? Besides the Arkansas fans have been "uncommon" and "throwing the A" now for 5 years and the slogans got us a coach who, for the first time in his life failed at a head coaching job. And (3) I hope I'm wrong, but all that I know is that when someone is  paying you almost 4 million per year, say your church, I sorta doubt you would be living in Dallas with your congregation being in Fayetteville and visiting the widows at their homes and the sick of your congregation in the hospital via Skype. What say you, Mr. Wet Behind The Ears ?
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Iwastherein1969

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2018, 11:54:29 am »

Thank you for a great post.
Yet another green horn who enjoys sunshine blown up his behind.
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tusked

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2018, 11:58:26 am »


So since Otey dropped so far because of his speed, should fans be concerned.  Does anyone see him moving to Safety ?
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presidenthog

Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2018, 12:33:01 pm »

IIRC, rating services actually judge each team on how well they filled their needs and then use that in their point systems for the team ranking.  I never liked that.

Espn is the only service to do this
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redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2018, 03:48:51 pm »

Mississippi State added a 247 top-100 recruit and jumped ahead of us in the 247 team ranking.  It's interesting to compare our classes, because they're nearly identical.



Currently, we have the same number of commitments, but we have 1 more 4* and our average is higher.  MSU's 2 highest rated players are ranked #65 and #95, while ours are #60 and #100.  But even though we have more 4* players, and our player average is higher, the rest of their 4* players are rated higher than ours, so I'm guessing that's why they jumped us?  In other words, I guess they jumped us because they have 4 players in the top-247, while we only have 3?
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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2018, 05:22:21 pm »

Mississippi State added a 247 top-100 recruit and jumped ahead of us in the 247 team ranking.  It's interesting to compare our classes, because they're nearly identical.



Currently, we have the same number of commitments, but we have 1 more 4* and our average is higher.  MSU's 2 highest rated players are ranked #65 and #95, while ours are #60 and #100.  But even though we have more 4* players, and our player average is higher, the rest of their 4* players are rated higher than ours, so I'm guessing that's why they jumped us?  In other words, I guess they jumped us because they have 4 players in the top-247, while we only have 3?
actually, our class is way better. just look at Rivals. They are 19th, we are 11th. They have six (6) 4*s, we have TWELVE (12) 4*s!
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redeye

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Re: Why were these players bumped DOWN to 3* on
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2018, 06:44:20 pm »

actually, our class is way better. just look at Rivals. They are 19th, we are 11th. They have six (6) 4*s, we have TWELVE (12) 4*s!

I wasn't comparing to see which is better, but rather looking for why the MSU class is rated higher, even though we have more 4* commits and a higher average.  I see 247 uses a bell curve for it's ratings, so I think it's due to MSU having more higher rated 4* players, even though the 2 highest rated are about the same for both schools.  I'm still surprised by how much they rose by adding just one highly rated player, although we'll probably jump back in front, if we steal Brooks from them.
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