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Author Topic: Coaching vs. Talent  (Read 1766 times)

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Hawggy_Style

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Coaching vs. Talent
« on: October 13, 2018, 11:15:20 pm »

With three loses within 1 touchdown: is the coaching that good with the talent that bad, or is the talent that good with the coaching that bad?
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Hogmatic

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 11:19:56 pm »

A very good point that many won't take the time to consider.

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Hawggy_Style

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 11:23:33 pm »

We will find out in years 2 and 3. Morris will have the recruiting classes. One side or the other will eat crow.

rtr

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 11:25:37 pm »

It was obvious to me after the TCU game that cupboard was bare and continued to be more bare as we rolled into this season.

Dr. Starcs

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 11:27:51 pm »

We should be 4-3 right now.

Hawggy_Style

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 11:29:27 pm »

It was obvious to me after the TCU game that cupboard was bare and continued to be more bare as we rolled into this season.

Not disagreeing, but what would you say in 2-3 years if the results were the same?
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Hawggy_Style

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 11:31:50 pm »

We should be 4-3 right now.

With better coaching, or better talent?
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 11:32:23 pm »

Both. Lol.

But I really meant coaching.

rtr

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2018, 11:32:41 pm »

Not disagreeing, but what would you say in 2-3 years if the results were the same?
The same thing but I do think the recruiting is much better.  Of course, the proof will be in the pudding. 

I think the culture of this program was soft and that is difficult to turn around.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 03:03:40 pm »

Bad coaching and bad talent against colorado state and UNT
Better coaching, more understanding of the system, still bad talent against Auburn, A&M, Bama, and Ole Miss.
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HenduHog

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 03:09:49 pm »

Bad coaching and bad talent against colorado state and UNT
Better coaching, more understanding of the system, still bad talent against Auburn, A&M, Bama, and Ole Miss.

I can see this.
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dethnode

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 03:14:20 pm »

Bad coaching and bad talent against colorado state and UNT
Better coaching, more understanding of the system, still bad talent against Auburn, A&M, Bama, and Ole Miss.

I think you have to attribute some of the bad coaching in colorado state and UNT to new team, not sure what talent he was working with...
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HenduHog

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 03:15:26 pm »

I think overall talent is the issue

Hawggy_Style

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 03:18:57 pm »

I think you have to attribute some of the bad coaching in colorado state and UNT to new team, not sure what talent he was working with...

Up 27-9 late in the 3rd and losing is....

MJ2

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 04:24:14 pm »

Good coaching usually beats good talent.    Look a P.A.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2018, 04:33:48 pm »

Good coaching usually beats good talent.    Look a P.A.
lol... PA has plenty of talent

GoHogs1091

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2018, 04:38:03 pm »

There is enough talent on this Hogs team to win at least 6 games this season.

What happened against Colorado State, North Texas, and Ole Miss shows that the coaching is not where it needs to be.

jabberjawls

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2018, 04:46:44 pm »

We should never lose to NT or CSU.   Our talent level is not that bad.

HogPharmer

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2018, 04:47:57 pm »

Good coaching usually beats good talent.    Look a P.A.

Yeah, those Henry boys suck. Good thing they had/have a good coach in H.S.

wpswillriseagain

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2018, 04:48:35 pm »

Good coaching usually beats good talent.    Look a P.A.
you typed this wrong right? PA never lacks in the talent department. They have great coaching as well. Not many schools have multiple college football players on them. Let alone the top TE in the country.
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HogFan219

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2018, 05:48:53 pm »

Not avoiding the question, but all of these guys have talent. Most had multiple Power 5 offers, many from very high quality programs. I think it's a combination that their talent wasn't developed, and probably regressed, under the previous staff and their apparent overly laid back approach. The other part is that these guys are square pegs in round hole system. The philosophies and approaches of the previous staff and the current staff are just so different.

UAGolfer1981

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2018, 05:59:23 pm »

W/L record for the senior class is a good reflection of talent level versus competition:

20-25 Overall   9-19 SEC  with 5 more games to play

MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2018, 06:08:58 pm »

With three loses within 1 touchdown: is the coaching that good with the talent that bad, or is the talent that good with the coaching that bad?

We have the talent to have a lot more wins than we have right now. I think that based on what has been said and what we have witnessed that the coaching staff was apparently remarkably slow in evaluating the offensive talent level on this team, teaching and utilizing it properly. Then, when you finally begin to see things evolve in a positive way, you lose your starting QB and top two RB's in the same game and still nearly won the game.

Lots of work remains to be done but the results so far are squarely on the shoulders of the staff. But that's JMO.

Hoggiedawg

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2018, 06:56:51 pm »

There is enough talent on this Hogs team to win at least 6 games this season.

What happened against Colorado State, North Texas, and Ole Miss shows that the coaching is not where it needs to be.

We have the talent to have a lot more wins than we have right now. I think that based on what has been said and what we have witnessed that the coaching staff was apparently remarkably slow in evaluating the offensive talent level on this team, teaching and utilizing it properly. Then, when you finally begin to see things evolve in a positive way, you lose your starting QB and top two RB's in the same game and still nearly won the game.

Lots of work remains to be done but the results so far are squarely on the shoulders of the staff. But that's JMO.

Yep, no matter how bad the development and talent evaluation was the last five years it's the fault of the current staff that the players are weak after seven games with the new staff and scheme.
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elviscat

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2018, 07:02:03 pm »

The rule of thumb, is you can't take a mule to the derby an expect to win. That's what we are trying to do, now. It's 85% talent and 15% coaching. We have the right coach and he is building the product with his recruiting efforts, best we've had in years. The five years of the JL/CBB, is the killing component in our dumpster's fire and it's still have some time to burn. If we stay behind CCM we are going to be something to watch in a couple of years. Be patient, it's coming.

MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2018, 07:25:46 pm »

Yep, no matter how bad the development and talent evaluation was the last five years it's the fault of the current staff that the players are weak after seven games with the new staff and scheme.

That crutch isn't going to hold up. This staff was behind, whatever the reason and what was inherited by this staff in terms of talent, was good enough to have won more games so far. That's my opinion and I'm not saying that because I have an agenda against Morris. I don't. This staff lost the handle this summer, during "unsupervised" work outs. That probably extended the learning curve further than they had anticipated and we saw that earlier in the season.

bennyl08

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2018, 11:40:35 pm »

With three loses within 1 touchdown: is the coaching that good with the talent that bad, or is the talent that good with the coaching that bad?

You have a coach who has been quickly rising up the ranks but nobody knows how high he can or perhaps can not climb.

That coach is taking over a team with plenty of talent. However, talent that is geared to a different style than what he wants, and talent that has gone through a lost season and likely has a mental hangover.

The results? You have a coach that was slow to understand and adapt to his new roster. A team that has been slow to take up for the new coach. You have a coach that is very inexperienced and having to learn by trial by fire similar to a freshmen qb trying to start. So, we are seeing mistakes from the coaching staff that you would never expect to see from a coaching staff, but to their credit, they are improving. From the talent standpoint, you have seem that mental hangover show it's ugly head in collapses upon adversity.

In a few years, time will tell a more complete story. We'll see how many current players go to the NFL and see in the pro day results the athleticism of the upperclassmen. Further, we'll see how well Morris will recruit players over that time, how well he will develop his players/the young players who haven't already been developed, and how well he improves his on-field coaching. Things are trending well for now, so hopefully that continues.
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Hogvillage Idiot

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2018, 11:42:12 pm »

With three loses within 1 touchdown: is the coaching that good with the talent that bad, or is the talent that good with the coaching that bad?
This again?!

Backcountryhog

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2018, 11:43:44 pm »

W/L record for the senior class is a good reflection of talent level versus competition:

20-25 Overall   9-19 SEC  with 5 more games to play
exactly!!

Hogmatic

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2018, 08:07:49 am »

The rule of thumb, is you can't take a mule to the derby an expect to win. That's what we are trying to do, now. It's 85% talent and 15% coaching. We have the right coach and he is building the product with his recruiting efforts, best we've had in years. The five years of the JL/CBB, is the killing component in our dumpster's fire and it's still have some time to burn. If we stay behind CCM we are going to be something to watch in a couple of years. Be patient, it's coming.

I agree that this is a proper way to look at the talent/coaching issue.  I think there was much more resistance than what was shown in the first 3 games.  I should have recognized it more when Woods was showing out at WR, O'Grady was in the dog house so much and the QB battle was a popularity contest among the players.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2018, 08:40:46 am »

Not avoiding the question, but all of these guys have talent. Most had multiple Power 5 offers, many from very high quality programs. I think it's a combination that their talent wasn't developed, and probably regressed, under the previous staff and their apparent overly laid back approach. The other part is that these guys are square pegs in round hole system. The philosophies and approaches of the previous staff and the current staff are just so different.
Negative... We have a lot of kids that werent wanted by other big schools. we have about 1/4-half the talent we need to even be somewhat successful.
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Hawggy_Style

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2018, 08:57:53 am »

This again?!

Sorry. This board only revolves around a few certain topics. GSD, Gus, Petrino, the buyout, GOBN, how many years does Morris get, 11am kickoffs, uniforms and Hammonds.

hogsanity

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2018, 08:59:22 am »

A coach is only as good as the players they have. Why was Saban not winning titles at Mich St? Because he did not have as good of players as did other teams in the big10.

When this issue comes up I always refer to Jim Leyland, the MLB manager. He is looked up as some great manager, yet the only times he won gig was when he had a team loaded with stars.  I am not saying he was a bad manager, but he was only as good as his players. Look at his run in Pittsburgh. When he had Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, Draybek and a couple others, they were in the playoffs and were literally one strike away from a WS in 92. When those guys left, the Pirates went in the tank. Did he suddenly forget how to manage?
Same thing happened when he went to the Marlins. Won a WS there, then they sold off all the talent, and they could not win at all. Did he again forget how to manage?

Back to Saban, his 1st year at Bama they lost to ULM, why, because they did not have a ton of talent on that team.

Hogmatic

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2018, 10:15:33 am »

Negative... We have a lot of kids that werent wanted by other big schools. we have about 1/4-half the talent we need to even be somewhat successful.

I hate to admit it but you aren't wrong

clutch

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2018, 10:21:23 am »

Good coaching usually beats good talent.    Look a P.A.

Not hardly. Especially not at the High School level. And P.A. has more talent than just about anyone in the state. Kevin Kelly is a great coach, but if he tries half of the stuff he does at school like Marvell, West Fork, Malvern, or any other typical bad football school, then he gets hammered. Good talent takes good coaching to become a GREAT team, but it still beats bad talent with good coaching most days.

Look at Scott Frost. He was everyone in the country's #1 pick for coach last year if they could get whoever they wanted. Hasn't won a game this season. He didn't forget how to coach. He just has bad talent, especially at the QB position. 
 
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Hogs-n-Roses

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2018, 10:22:01 am »

You have a coach who has been quickly rising up the ranks but nobody knows how high he can or perhaps can not climb.

That coach is taking over a team with plenty of talent. However, talent that is geared to a different style than what he wants, and talent that has gone through a lost season and likely has a mental hangover.

The results? You have a coach that was slow to understand and adapt to his new roster. A team that has been slow to take up for the new coach. You have a coach that is very inexperienced and having to learn by trial by fire similar to a freshmen qb trying to start. So, we are seeing mistakes from the coaching staff that you would never expect to see from a coaching staff, but to their credit, they are improving. From the talent standpoint, you have seem that mental hangover show it's ugly head in collapses upon adversity.

In a few years, time will tell a more complete story. We'll see how many current players go to the NFL and see in the pro day results the athleticism of the upperclassmen. Further, we'll see how well Morris will recruit players over that time, how well he will develop his players/the young players who haven't already been developed, and how well he improves his on-field coaching. Things are trending well for now, so hopefully that continues.
Lets use Enos as a barometer. Arkansas, fair to poor at best. Alabama, looks like HC material. Its all in who can recruit.
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Hogs-n-Roses

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2018, 10:27:18 am »

OK then, Jim Chaney
Pittman?
We can do this all day. Jimmies and Joes makes the coach or breaks the coach.
Les Miles? Heck Bret Bielema?
Some notable exceptions,all Texas coaches, even A$M.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2018, 11:01:42 am »

I hate to admit it but you aren't wrong
ive done the research.. we are severely lacking...

Hogmatic

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2018, 11:11:05 am »

ive done the research.. we are severely lacking...

I know you're right and maybe it is time to accept just how bad it is.  It is tough on a public message board to say the truth and still be nice and respectful.  Our defense has multiple studs in the front 7 but only one in the back 4.  The offense is even worse with a C-USA Oline minus Froholdt, and C-USA WRs.  Wallace is a 4 star wash out on the Oline.  Pettway and Jones are a bust at WR.  Ty was a 4 star QB.  The cult hero QB was not and he won't take coaching.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2018, 11:17:54 am »

I know you're right and maybe it is time to accept just how bad it is.  It is tough on a public message board to say the truth and still be nice and respectful.  Our defense has multiple studs in the front 7 but only one in the back 4.  The offense is even worse with a C-USA Oline minus Froholdt, and C-USA WRs.  Wallace is a 4 star wash out on the Oline.  Pettway and Jones are a bust at WR.  Ty was a 4 star QB.  The cult hero QB was not and he won't take coaching.
Pettways instate class has been a bust besides Greenlaw. Everyone else not so much. And they had some kids with decent offers.This years recruiting class looks really good with offers besides our offfensive line.

Inhogswetrust

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2018, 11:37:55 am »

With three loses within 1 touchdown: is the coaching that good with the talent that bad, or is the talent that good with the coaching that bad?

If the talent is better than the coaching then why didn’t the team win more the last few years. After all the prior coach had good records at his last stop before coming here. It’s an overall lack of talent and some not buying in. Which is sad for those that are buying in. I will forever be grateful for those.
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ricepig

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2018, 11:38:12 am »

Negative... We have a lot of kids that werent wanted by other big schools. we have about 1/4-half the talent we need to even be somewhat successful.

Any different than the BP years?
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2018, 11:42:02 am »

A very good point that many won't take the time to consider.

It’s been discussed for awhile now.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2018, 11:45:45 am »

A bad coach can mess up a good team and a bad team can’t make a good coach great. It takes some of both being good or great to succeed.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2018, 11:45:56 am »

Any different than the BP years?
would have to dig some.. But I would say yes. Petrino had Mallett and receivers other teams in the country wanted. And most of them over performed what they were rated at. crazy to think that Petrinos 2 best weapons didnt stay healthy in Childs and Knile Davis. Would have to look into the lineman for sure.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2018, 11:47:54 am »

Lack of over all depth and talent.  This Staff getting all they can out of what Jeffery Carpetbagger Long left us with.

#1 STUNNA

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2018, 11:48:40 am »

Lack of over all depth and talent.  This Staff getting all they can out of what Jeffery Carpetbagger Long left us with.
#Uncommon!!!!
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2018, 11:50:58 am »

Lack of over all depth and talent.  This Staff getting all they can out of what Jeffery Carpetbagger Long left us with.

Except it wasn’t Long doing the recruiting......it was Bret and the coaches.
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hogsanity

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Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2018, 11:53:04 am »

Lack of over all depth and talent. 


With very few exceptions, that has been every Hog team since joining the sec. Especially lack of depth.
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hawgfan4life

Re: Coaching vs. Talent
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 12:00:25 pm »

Great coach can make average players good, good players great, and win championships with great players.  A great coach can look very mediocre with bad players.  A good coach will look awful with bad players, win most of their games with good players, and win championships with great players if he doesn't do stupid things to screw it up.  A bad coach will look horrible with bad players, lose games he should win with good players, and win a majority of the games against their schedule with great players.  The bad coach will be convinced the top programs have much better talent for reasons he can't compete with and fans will fall in step with that philosophy until they get tired of losing games they feel they could have won.  It is far too early to know what we have with this staff because we truly don't know what the talent level is and how long it takes for them to be running his system.  What we do know is that his recruiting class is the best ever within the past 30 to 40 years on paper right now.  We know that he is saying and doing a lot of the things we want to hear and see being done.  We can see the team didn't quit on him.  I think we will see in year 3 which direction we are going and have a better idea of how he stacks up.
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