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Author Topic: 4 games - keeping redshirt  (Read 1534 times)

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twistitup

4 games - keeping redshirt
« on: August 12, 2018, 06:27:53 pm »

Freshman can now play in 4 games w/o burning their redshirt...I like it! So, do we use lots of FR in the first 4 to see who the ballers are? Do JSJ and Noland get a shot in the first 4?
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Hou-Hog

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2018, 06:35:09 pm »

Freshman can now play in 4 games w/o burning their redshirt...I like it! So, do we use lots of FR in the first 4 to see who the ballers are? Do JSJ and Noland get a shot in the first 4?
For players that are borderline red shirts, I would use them 5 games in...understated the playbook offense or defense better, provide a rest for reserves that are dinged up, momentum into the bowl game. 
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jgphillips3

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2018, 06:41:28 pm »

You sure could use this like the old "three games and mono" trick to evaluate talent early, but where I see this being a huge advantage is late in a season when fatigue and injuries are setting in with starters and a freshman who has had the whole season to learn the game can now step in and provide some minutes with a chance to show he deserves a spot in the two deep next year.  There are lots of times a freshman could have contributed late in the season but you didn't want to burn his shirt at that point.  Now, you can develop them and see what they can do when the opportunity arises.

ArkansasA30

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2018, 06:49:46 pm »

Freshman can now play in 4 games w/o burning their redshirt...I like it! So, do we use lots of FR in the first 4 to see who the ballers are? Do JSJ and Noland get a shot in the first 4?

I think a lot of their playing time is going to depend on where Daulton Hyatt stands. As of today, I think most would say Hyatt is 3rd on the depth chart. It's going to be tough to see Noland or JSJ get playing time as the 4th stringer or even further back. Hyatt is also considered the most mobile QB on the roster, so those "Wildcat QB" packages are mainly going to built around him. Even if we completely blow out Eastern Illinois, our 3rd QB is going to get lucky to get a drive in. I would love to see a freshman QB get some snaps, but unless some injuries occur, I do not see it happening.   
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2018, 06:58:35 pm »

Does the rules say it is the first 4 games, or just 4 games period no matter when they are..,I.e. could they play in the last 4 of the year?

Let’s just hope Morris can show a lot more restraint on this then Bert could who literally wasted redshirts on QB kneel downs at the end of the first game of the year and they never played again and a whole year was wasted

4 games...I don't believe it matters if they are early or late in the season.

MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2018, 07:08:59 pm »

Freshman can now play in 4 games w/o burning their redshirt...I like it! So, do we use lots of FR in the first 4 to see who the ballers are? Do JSJ and Noland get a shot in the first 4?

Here's a good explanation of what the new ruling means and how it might be used throughout a season. Also, the potential ramifications to an existing roster.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/23861759/what-does-four-game-redshirt-rule-mean-division-teams
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 07:35:33 pm »

Here's a good explanation of what the new ruling means and how it might be used throughout a season. Also, the potential ramifications to an existing roster.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/23861759/what-does-four-game-redshirt-rule-mean-division-teams

SEC Coach"

"The thing that is the unknown is how the kid is going to handle college mentally. Those are the things that usually hold some guys back. The only way you can determine that is to put them out there and play. "

That's kind of what I was thinking. Get them under the lights and see what happens. It gives those kids that are 'gamers' to get an opportunity. Matt J. was a gamer- under the lights he got it done. Some people just aren't practice superstars - they turn it on during the game.

Iverson was another that comes to mind (I know it was basketball) but he's an example of a 'gamer' -
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bennyl08

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2018, 12:27:07 am »

SEC Coach"

"The thing that is the unknown is how the kid is going to handle college mentally. Those are the things that usually hold some guys back. The only way you can determine that is to put them out there and play. "

That's kind of what I was thinking. Get them under the lights and see what happens. It gives those kids that are 'gamers' to get an opportunity. Matt J. was a gamer- under the lights he got it done. Some people just aren't practice superstars - they turn it on during the game.

Iverson was another that comes to mind (I know it was basketball) but he's an example of a 'gamer' -

No coach in their right ever will nor should they ever play a player who is terrible in practice.

Matt Jones was sometimes aloof and lazy in practice, but you are a fool if you think his skill wasn't immediately obvious in practice or that he didn't have success as a qb during practice. Sure, he probably could have been even better if he worked even harder, but he didn't go out there day in and day out, get sacked 5 times, throw 5 picks, and not complete a single pass all offense and then go out there and ball on saturday. That simply does not happen.

Every coach out there is going to play the players that give them the best chance at winning a game. That can just as easily come from not making mistakes that will cost the game just as much as making plays that could win the game. Matt Jones was a practice super star because every day in practice, he showed that he had the skills that gave the overall team the best chance at success. This notion that he made AJ Derby look like Tom Brady in practice needs to die.

factchecker

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2018, 12:40:43 am »

Please list the names of these QB's that you are referring to, or maybe even just one.
That's a good question.  A quick search of our recent quarterbacks show that most if not all redshirted their freshman year.

Damon "Duwop" Mitchell - 2013 (TRUE FRESHMAN): Redshirted at quarterback during initial year on campus.
Rafe Peavey - Freshman (2014) Redshirted as a true freshman.
Ty Storey - 2015 (FRESHMAN): Redshirted during initial year on campus.
Cole Kelley - 2016 (FRESHMAN): Redshirted during initial year with the program.
Jack Lindsey - 2016 (FRESHMAN): Redshirted during initial year with the program.
Dalton Hyatt - 2017 (FRESHMAN): Redshirted during initial year on campus.

I might be missing someone or maybe he is thinking about when Ty came in last season as a REDSHIRT SOPHOMORE to take a knee vs. FAMU.

The only QB that I remember playing his first year here was Derby and he was a JUCO transfer.
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 06:10:57 am »

No coach in their right ever will nor should they ever play a player who is terrible in practice.

Matt Jones was sometimes aloof and lazy in practice, but you are a fool if you think his skill wasn't immediately obvious in practice or that he didn't have success as a qb during practice. Sure, he probably could have been even better if he worked even harder, but he didn't go out there day in and day out, get sacked 5 times, throw 5 picks, and not complete a single pass all offense and then go out there and ball on saturday. That simply does not happen.

Every coach out there is going to play the players that give them the best chance at winning a game. That can just as easily come from not making mistakes that will cost the game just as much as making plays that could win the game. Matt Jones was a practice super star because every day in practice, he showed that he had the skills that gave the overall team the best chance at success. This notion that he made AJ Derby look like Tom Brady in practice needs to die.
Get real...some guys show up on game day- we need more of them. Giving 100 in practice is great, winning on Sat is better.

Matt Jones was NOT a practice superstar -

CCM will get the best players out there... the ones that can do it under the lights
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King Kong

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 06:36:51 am »

Get real...some guys show up on game day- we need more of them. Giving 100 in practice is great, winning on Sat is better.

Matt Jones was NOT a practice superstar -

CCM will get the best players out there... the ones that can do it under the lights

One time to prove a point Nutt Matt Jones on the 3 string.

Matt Jones took the 3rd string offense and lit up the 1st string.

Bacons Rebellion

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 07:01:04 am »

One time to prove a point Nutt Matt Jones on the 3 string.

Matt Jones took the 3rd string offense and lit up the 1st string.

Well, that proved a point.

oldhawg

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 07:12:39 am »

“who literally wasted redshirts on QB kneel downs”
“I wasn’t talking about QBs”
“One time to prove a point Nutt Matt Jones on the 3 string.”
“..... A free telling us one of his top goals was a deep redshirt program”


I'm having problems following this thread??  Perhaps I need another cup of coffee, or another shot of bourbon  ---- or perhaps others are in need of the same thing.  :)
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nwahogfan1

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 09:55:26 am »

What the post was saying to me is there is going to be a lot of talk in coaches meetings to come up with a plan to how to best use your freshmen.  Play them early or late or in  what particular games and so forth.   The hard thing is if you plan on red shirting a player but get him some playing time in those 1st 4 games  but what happens if a couple players a head of him get hurt in the 10th game and you must play him.   It kills his red shirt year.  So there will be some mistakes made but it should be great news for most of your 2nd and 3rd string Freshmen knowing there is a huge chance they will get some PT this year. 
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DeltaBoy

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 09:56:13 am »

Freshman can now play in 4 games w/o burning their redshirt...I like it! So, do we use lots of FR in the first 4 to see who the ballers are? Do JSJ and Noland get a shot in the first 4?

This a good rule.
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hawganatic

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2018, 10:54:10 am »

Let’s just hope Morris can show a lot more restraint on this then Bert could who literally wasted redshirts on QB kneel downs at the end of the first game of the year and they never played again and a whole year was wasted

Refresh my memory.  Who did this happen with?
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hawganatic

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 10:57:27 am »

Get real...some guys show up on game day- we need more of them. Giving 100 in practice is great, winning on Sat is better.

Matt Jones was NOT a practice superstar -

CCM will get the best players out there... the ones that can do it under the lights

I'd say these "game day warriors" are the exception and not the rule.  Outside of that, it's hard to build team continuity when you are starting players who loaf through practice, over guys who but their arse.  The talent differential would have to be pretty significant to justify starting somebody who doesn't put their best effort into practice.
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 11:54:47 am »

I'd say these "game day warriors" are the exception and not the rule. 

Sure they are...but it does happen. Some people rise to the occasion on Sat....some people who looked 'great' in practice seem to not show up when the lights come on.

Maybe we will have a couple surprise FR who are ready to contribute
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Mike_e

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 12:19:09 pm »

I don't get why somebody would want to burn rent-a-wins on somebody that's not (with any luck) going to get you into mid-season form.

Aside from receiver or maybe running back which may be easier to play on talent alone putting true freshmen out there without arming them with the coaching needed seems like asking them to fail.

At least give the kids time to set their feet and clear their heads.  If they show that they have a firm grasp of the program by mid-season start thinking about playing them then.

One caveat though is if you have a rash of injuries in front of them in your depth chart and you really don't have anybody better.
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 12:25:23 pm »

mike, some of these FR graduated hs a semester early and have been on campus for a while...the adjustment period is over for them. I see what you are saying for kids just arriving on campus.....

I believe Bumper Pool is one of these Freshman. He graduated early and has been here learning this new defensive system. Will he be a contributor this season? Who knows...put the kid in, let's see.
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RT1941

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 12:38:30 pm »

For any early-enrollee freshman who's been on campus 8 months, they should be acclimated to campus life, the football facility, managing the classroom and football duties - the transition period from high school to college life is over.  I happy they can play in live action 4 games and still RS if the coaches feel it's necessary.
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PonderinHog

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2018, 12:41:08 pm »

Do bowl games count as one game?
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Mike_e

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2018, 12:42:15 pm »

mike, some of these FR graduated hs a semester early and have been on campus for a while...the adjustment period is over for them. I see what you are saying for kids just arriving on campus.....

I believe Bumper Pool is one of these Freshman. He graduated early and has been here learning this new defensive system. Will he be a contributor this season? Who knows...put the kid in, let's see.

I do see your point and there are usually exceptions to every rule but even so there are a very limited number of practices these days compared to days of yore.

It seems to me that the old adage that went you can count a loss for every freshman you have to start still has value.  'Freshmen mistakes' is also cliched but none the less true.  A 17 or 18 year old young man holds much potential but to realize his full potential he needs mentoring and this will make him that much stronger and also the team.

I still say to let them get both feet under them before making them face a bull-rush.

An extra 4 or 5 weeks of instruction will only help them and if they show that they can hold up their end benefit the team through extra depth.
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2018, 12:46:28 pm »

I do see your point and there are usually exceptions to every rule but even so there are a very limited number of practices these days compared to days of yore.

It seems to me that the old adage that went you can count a loss for every freshman you have to start still has value.  'Freshmen mistakes' is also cliched but none the less true.  A 17 or 18 year old young man holds much potential but to realize his full potential he needs mentoring and this will make him that much stronger and also the team.

I still say to let them get both feet under them before making them face a bull-rush.

An extra 4 or 5 weeks of instruction will only help them and if they show that they can hold up their end benefit the team through extra depth.

I see your point....but these are not your grandpa's FR, these kids come in fully trained and in peak condition. Sure, college helps them improve their game but many of these kids have been working very hard to get to the D1 level - camps, nutritionists, private training, indoor facilities, etc....I think the FR of today come in ready to play more than ever before...especially at the skill positions, DB, and possibly LB

Defense may be easier to pickup than O...then again some of these kids come out of h.s. running a similar O to CCM

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/fitness-training/inside-the-modern-high-school-weight-room.html
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Mike_e

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2018, 01:03:26 pm »

I see your point....but these are not your grandpa's FR, these kids come in fully trained and in peak condition. Sure, college helps them improve their game but many of these kids have been working very hard to get to the D1 level - camps, nutritionists, private training, indoor facilities, etc....I think the FR of today come in ready to play more than ever before...especially at the skill positions, DB, and possibly LB

Defense may be easier to pickup than O...then again some of these kids come out of h.s. running a similar O to CCM

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/fitness-training/inside-the-modern-high-school-weight-room.html

Watch out, I am my grandpa.  Or at least a reasonable facsimile.

On the most current fitness/training/nutrition issues I'll have to take you at your word.

But on my initial statement I'll stand by wanting to get the team honed and ready to play their conference games -especially atm- by getting the starters as much work done against the rent-a-wins as possible.

After all, all but one of our coaches will be starting their first games as Razorbacks too.  New coaches, new schemes we have enough on our plates.  Let's get the team ready first.
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Bacons Rebellion

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2018, 01:07:31 pm »

The value of the rule will not be getting the mid-tier and lower tier freshmen a few snaps early in the season. The value will be as the season wears on and you have SPECIFIC needs for depth to make up for injury attrition. That's the point where they might actually make a difference and affect the chances to win a game,

bennyl08

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2018, 11:33:46 pm »

Get real...some guys show up on game day- we need more of them. Giving 100 in practice is great, winning on Sat is better.

Matt Jones was NOT a practice superstar -

CCM will get the best players out there... the ones that can do it under the lights

I can guarantee you that Matt Jones, particularly after his freshmen season, giving 25% effort in practice looked better than any other quarterback on the roster no what what effort they gave. I played on teams that looked and played a lot better on game day than during practice. Guess what? The best players on game were still the best players in practice, despite the lackluster practices.

However, if Tyler Wilson was giving his all and Mallett was out there and looked terrible in practice, Petrino would have played Wilson. How can I say that? Look at Knile Davis's carries during his career. By his own admission, he didn't put effort into practices and was sloppy, and Petrino played other players ahead of him in 2009 and early 2010. Petrino didn't take Knile seriously as a player until Knile took practice seriously. Knile was heads and tails above any other back on the roster, but Dennis Johnson for example, was good enough in his own right to look better in practice than Knile early.

I agree that we need more guys showing up on game days, and that winning on game day is a better feeling than winning in practice.

CCM is going to play the players who give us the best chance to win, same as any other coach. He isn't going to start somebody who literally sucks in practice hoping that they magically become better on game day.

DCHawg

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2018, 11:47:15 pm »

I would expect to see future stars in November, to gain some game experience.
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LZH

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Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2018, 05:59:56 am »

One time to prove a point Nutt Matt Jones on the 3 string.

Matt Jones took the 3rd string offense and lit up the 1st string.

The 2001 MSU game in RRS was tight...we looked dead.  I don't remember exactly when it was, but Nutt finally put Matt Jones in and we immediately began to move the chains. From my seat in the indoor south end zone I could see what Jones could see, and his ability to out-maneuver defenders was almost like a video game at times.

The crowd in there begin going crazy, naturally. Many of them of course were cheering Jones and the offense, but I heard a lot of folks yelling at Nutt because he hadn't used MJ much, if at all, up until that afternoon.

I think we won the game by three points....no way we win without him. And he was just a freshman.
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twistitup

Re: 4 games - keeping redshirt
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2018, 06:03:45 am »

The 2001 MSU game in RRS was tight...we looked dead.  I don't remember exactly when it was, but Nutt finally put Matt Jones in and we immediately began to move the chains. From my seat in the indoor south end zone I could see what Jones could see, and his ability to out-maneuver defenders was almost like a video game at times.

The crowd in there begin going crazy, naturally. Many of them of course were cheering Jones and the offense, but I heard a lot of folks yelling at Nutt because he hadn't used MJ much, if at all, up until that afternoon.

I think we won the game by three points....no way we win without him. And he was just a freshman.
[/quote

Probably not the coaches favorite practice player.....but MJ stepped up under the lights - no doubt about it. How many offers did MJ have out of hs?
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