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Author Topic: Interesting timing on this DM News article on how "simple" Chavis' defenses are  (Read 3548 times)

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WizardofhOgZ



Makes one wonder why it would pop up just as Chavis and company are getting multiple commitments on defensive players, many of them from Texas.

Just coincidental, I'm sure . . .  ::)

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2018/08/07/report-former-am-defensive-starter-comments-simplicity-aggies-previous-defensive-scheme

liljo


Makes one wonder why it would pop up just as Chavis and company are getting multiple commitments on defensive players, many of them from Texas.

Just coincidental, I'm sure . . .  ::)

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2018/08/07/report-former-am-defensive-starter-comments-simplicity-aggies-previous-defensive-scheme

No doubt! Aggies gonna aggie.

Hogs gonna ball.
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Sed76

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Hopefully Chief will have our boys dialed up and ready to go September 29th. If they can get that A&M monkey off their back it will speak volumes more than some article.

HawgHawk

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So it was so simple, but those guys just weren't good enough to perform it to expectations. OK. What else is new with aggies?

Lud42

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Meh, how complicated can you get when you're dealing with aggies.

hawgball40

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CCM has stated repeatedly "We are gonna be aggressive and we're gonna be multiple". so we'll see on that front. Maybe what these guys are saying is true, and it may have something to do with limits placed on chavis by the coach at A&M. If we're not multiple then that will surely be a problem. I'd bet dollars to donuts we will be.
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HogFansReunited

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Personally I donít care how complex or simple the defense is as long as it is successful.

Paul

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CCM has stated repeatedly "We are gonna be aggressive and we're gonna be multiple". so we'll see on that front. Maybe what these guys are saying is true, and it may have something to do with limits placed on chavis by the coach at A&M. If we're not multiple then that will surely be a problem. I'd bet dollars to donuts we will be.
  that's been the knock on Chief since he was in Knoxville.  When he has had great talent he has had great defenses.  This job will be a good challenge for him.   He's certainly upgrading the talent.
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Hog Fan...DOH!

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  that's been the knock on Chief since he was in Knoxville.  When he has had great talent he has had great defenses.  This job will be a good challenge for him.   He's certainly upgrading the talent.

What coach has great numbers with bad talent?

tusked

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wow what a planted story.  can't get more obvious.
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East TN HAWG

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Complex does not always mean better.  Simplicity can mean less thinking and more reacting.  Like the poster said earlier who cares as long as it is successful. 
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VirginiaHog


Complex does not always mean better.  Simplicity can mean less thinking and more reacting.  Like the poster said earlier who cares as long as it is successful. 
Agreed. I have heard Arkansas players comment that this d is designed to allow them to not think as much and to react and play faster.
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TexHog188

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Not buying it...  Every player will up sell the new coach new scheme when you put a mic in his face.  #Hammerdown
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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With defense simple or complex doesnít really matter. Itís all about execution.
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rljjr


Simple? So what? Keep the other guys out of the end zone. Period. The fact that Aggies couldn't figure THAT part out proves who they are.
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PonderinHog

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Simple?  Attackle the football!




Nothing to it!  Just like falling out of a tree!
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#hammerdown


Hasn't part of the problem for the last 3 years been our scheme was too complicated?  Guys were having to "think" too much instead of just react.

I actually take this article as good news rather than the slap in the face it was intended to be.
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Otis Kirk

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The fact it is aggressive compared to what we have watched in recent years I don't care if it is simple or complicated. A lot of coaches go back to KISS. Keep it simple stupid.  Execution is the key to an offense or defense. You can have the most complicated defense in the nation, but if you can't tackle or execute what you are supposed to do that won't help u at all.
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sowmonella

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I hope the Hog D tells the A & M QB "It's simple" every time they plant his rear in Cowboy turf.
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NaturalStateReb

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You can win with any style of offense or defense as long as you can execute.
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azhog10

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You can win with any style of offense or defense as long as you can execute.
Jokingly disagree. CBB's defenses executed to perfection being non-aggressive and sitting back and playing it safe.
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Paul

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What coach has great numbers with bad talent?
for one, Gary Patterson has had consistently great numbers with 3* talent
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TeedupHigh


  that's been the knock on Chief since he was in Knoxville.  When he has had great talent he has had great defenses.  This job will be a good challenge for him.   He's certainly upgrading the talent.
Never seen a coach yet that was worth a damn without good players...
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Hollywood870


Makes one wonder why it would pop up just as Chavis and company are getting multiple commitments on defensive players, many of them from Texas.

Just coincidental, I'm sure . . .  ::)

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2018/08/07/report-former-am-defensive-starter-comments-simplicity-aggies-previous-defensive-scheme
"Simple" is a good thing.
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Arkansas Fan


for one, Gary Patterson has had consistently great numbers with 3* talent

You people need to realize stars have nothing to do with talent or how a player will perform on the field.

Trey Flowers was a 3 star, Darius Winston was a five star. Flowers actually was a player, Winston was just a body thrown in.

Patterson is just a really good coach as well.
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bennyl08

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What coach has great numbers with bad talent?

There's a handful of them out there. However, they usually get picked up by schools with great talent pretty quickly.
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bennyl08

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You people need to realize stars have nothing to do with talent or how a player will perform on the field.

Trey Flowers was a 3 star, Darius Winston was a five star. Flowers actually was a player, Winston was just a body thrown in.

Patterson is just a really good coach as well.

There is no single greater indicator of athletic talent out there. If you were able to blindly sign nothing but 5* players, you'd average at least 5 first round draft picks every single season and about 12-13 total draft picks.

That would equate to having half of your offense and half your defense being first round talents (noting that you'll have about 24 positions so you'll replace half your starters ever year) and your entire starting lineup would be NFL ready. That'd be akin to having Joey Bosa and Jadaveon Clowney as your starters with guys like Flowers being your second string.

It's all about probability. So, of course there are exceptions that end up proving the rule.
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DoubleReedHawgCaller

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It's got to be better than what we had. The last staff couldn't even teach the guys how to contain the edge.
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supersaint


Football is simple.  Itís just like algebra.  All about angles.

liljo


Football is simple.  Itís just like algebra.  All about angles.

Cool. Sounds a lot like geometry.

PorkSoda


Football is simple.  Itís just like algebra.  All about angles.
Cooking is simple, its just like spelling. All about punctuation.

Arkansas Fan


There is no single greater indicator of athletic talent out there. If you were able to blindly sign nothing but 5* players, you'd average at least 5 first round draft picks every single season and about 12-13 total draft picks.

That would equate to having half of your offense and half your defense being first round talents (noting that you'll have about 24 positions so you'll replace half your starters ever year) and your entire starting lineup would be NFL ready. That'd be akin to having Joey Bosa and Jadaveon Clowney as your starters with guys like Flowers being your second string.

It's all about probability. So, of course there are exceptions that end up proving the rule.

Sure there is. It's their offer list. Even then, a player that gets lowly offers still performs well on the field and has NFL teams wanting him.
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bennyl08

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As for simplicity vs complex, as has already been stated, any scheme can have success, it's all about the execution.

That said, a complex defense is a high-risk, high-reward style of defense. Saban's defenses are very complex. They are able to confuse offenses and trick offenses. Typically, defense is more of a read and react group, even if aggressive. Only the complex defenses are capable of actively forcing the offense to adjust on a snap to snap basis. However, Rex Ryan also runs a very complex defense. For a while with the jets, they had a feared defense. He later took over a Bill's 4-3 defense that was loaded to the brim with pro-bowl players who had done quite well in the previous seasons. He floundered in his complex 3-4 scheme as there were some bad fits but also players mentioned that it was too complicated and slowing them down.

On the other end of the spectrum is the simple defense. From there, you don't really dictate offensive changes and you don't really change what you do relative to the offense. It is simply, we are going to do this. Try and stop us. It allows your players to not have to be very intelligent and just play faster without thinking, but it forces more onto the talent of the players. Seahawks used a pretty simple scheme. Didn't really do any exotic blitzes or coverage schemes. They did a couple things, but did them well and had all pro talent that let them rely more on talent and less on scheme.

Also figure a bit of clarification would be useful here. In terms of defense dictating the offense... There's a difference between an offense calling an audible after seeing your defensive alignment and saying, "hey, this is how we can attack this defense best" vs seeing a movement in the defense that makes the offense realize, "oh crap, what we want to do isn't going to work, we have to switch, not because we see something we can exploit, but just to prevent us from being exploited." It's the difference b/w going out to the lake planning to fish and seeing that the weather is even more perfect to do sailing or something, vs going to the lake to fish and then a storm comes and you have to cancel and just get a lunch at a local diner or something instead.

Movement on defense, actively trying to confuse the offense both pre-and post snap, vs having a set few things you and daring the offense move the ball on you.
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bennyl08

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Sure there is. It's their offer list. Even then, a player that gets lowly offers still performs well on the field and has NFL teams wanting him.

First, how do you plan to describe an offer list in a singular term? That's kind of what I meant by singular.

But, ignoring that component since perhaps you interpreted "singular" as source, even then it doesn't hold. Why? You need context to go with it. Today, a tenner offer doesn't mean a great deal. 15 years ago or so, it would be a prime time offer. Vice versa with Bama where it wouldn't mean much back then but now it does.
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murthage


If you really evaluate what Kyle Allen said, it was not negative, in fact, it was very positive.

"Back when I was at A&M and would play against our scout team and Coach [John] Chavis, it's a great defense, but it's not very multiple," Allen told Sports Illustrated. "They do a couple of things and they do 'em really well."

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Arkansas Fan


First, how do you plan to describe an offer list in a singular term? That's kind of what I meant by singular.

But, ignoring that component since perhaps you interpreted "singular" as source, even then it doesn't hold. Why? You need context to go with it. Today, a tenner offer doesn't mean a great deal. 15 years ago or so, it would be a prime time offer. Vice versa with Bama where it wouldn't mean much back then but now it does.

I'd say a Tennessee offer is a nice offer. Would you say an Arkansas offer right now is a bad offer? I wouldn't. What about Michigan or Auburn coming of 3-9 seasons? I'd say they were still good offers.

There's also the case of these recruiting sites listing a kid as a 2-3 star player, then when bigger offers start coming in, all of a sudden the site bumps up their stars. The fact is these recruiting sites have NO idea about what a player will do and they rely on the actual coaches of the schools to make the offers or the kid himself just being so dominate in high school that it's obvious to put him as a 4-5 star. And, as I already made a case for it, still doesn't mean a high rated kid will succeed on the college football field.

WBOBO

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Chief having Caldwell by his side again can't hurt a bit either.   They click.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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First, how do you plan to describe an offer list in a singular term? That's kind of what I meant by singular.

But, ignoring that component since perhaps you interpreted "singular" as source, even then it doesn't hold. Why? You need context to go with it. Today, a tenner offer doesn't mean a great deal. 15 years ago or so, it would be a prime time offer. Vice versa with Bama where it wouldn't mean much back then but now it does.

Does an offer from Arkansas today mean a great deal?

If your answer if yes, then this insinuates that Jeremy Pruitt doesn't know what he's doing or what he's looking for in a player. After all of his years at Alabama, I think Jeremy Pruitt knows what to look for in a player.

Look at the guys John Chavis is landing here at Arkansas. Someone from Tennessee could say the same thing you said about an offer from Arkansas (as a football program) not meaning much. But when it comes from John Chavis, it's a different animal. I'm not comparing Chavis and Pruitt, and obviously we have no idea what Pruitt will do at Tennesee, but the principle remains that these kinda guys know what to look for.

A guy like Pruitt who was at Alabama for years probably knows what to look for in a recruit. Therefore that offer means something.

By your logic, why would an offer from Chad Morris at Arkansas mean anything? Unless, of course, you're conceding that like Tennessee, an offer from Arkansas right now doesn't mean a great deal.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 11:46:28 pm by RyanMallettsEgo »
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bennyl08

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I'd say a Tennessee offer is a nice offer. Would you say an Arkansas offer right now is a bad offer? I wouldn't. What about Michigan or Auburn coming of 3-9 seasons? I'd say they were still good offers.

I'd say a Tennessee offer is no more meaningful than an Arkansas offer right now and a Bama offer would be significantly more meaningful than either. However, it wasn't that long ago that an offer from Tennessee would mean way more than both an Arkansas and a Bama offer combined.

No offer is a "bad" offer. But some offers mean more than others. For example, until the 80's, a Florida offer didn't mean much. They'd end the year ranked at best in the teens and even then, only a handful a times a decade. They'd mostly be unranked.

Quote
There's also the case of these recruiting sites listing a kid as a 2-3 star player, then when bigger offers start coming in, all of a sudden the site bumps up their stars. The fact is these recruiting sites have NO idea about what a player will do and they rely on the actual coaches of the schools to make the offers or the kid himself just being so dominate in high school that it's obvious to put him as a 4-5 star. And, as I already made a case for it, still doesn't mean a high rated kid will succeed on the college football field.

First, can't say that you are using the word "fact" correctly. Secondly, you are faulting the ratings for what exactly? "Oh no, they are using expert's opinions to creating a rating system! The horror!" Do you also fault movie rating websites for using professional movie critics rankings and compiling them into a single number? I don't get that criticism whatsoever.

Thirdly, they don't just rely on coaching staffs as evidenced by players generally being accurately ranked before schools typically start giving out scholarships. It's not that difficult to rate a player by watching several of their games and get pretty close.

Lastly, the recruiting service rankings end up being more accurate than the coach's in terms of overall talent. They largely come this success by the pooling of multiple data points, such as camps, HS tape, and offer lists. If you look at the accuracy of HS star rankings and compare to actual player success, it's more successful than just looking at a school's offer lists.
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hamARchy in the USA


Simple should help recruits understand they can get on the field quicker at Arkansas.
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GoHogs1091

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for one, Gary Patterson has had consistently great numbers with 3* talent

Patterson is a very good defensive coach.  There are several videos of him on YouTube doing a clinic about the 4-2-5 defense.

Probably the best defensive minds in college football.

1a.  Venables
1b.  Saban
2.    Patterson
3.    Chavis
4.    Aranda
5.    Foster
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Hoggish1


I'd rather us know what we're doing and do it well than have us be all fancy and not know where to go.  Morris will exploit hesitation in a complex defense where players have to think to much.
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TheEnemy

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Quote
"We got a whole lot of packages and a lot of different, exotic looks and whatnot," A&M senior defensvie end Landis Durham said in April.

And a whole lot of mistakes, miscommunications,  break downs and whatnot

LZH

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I'd say a Tennessee offer is no more meaningful than an Arkansas offer right now and a Bama offer would be significantly more meaningful than either. However, it wasn't that long ago that an offer from Tennessee would mean way more than both an Arkansas and a Bama offer combined.

No offer is a "bad" offer. But some offers mean more than others. For example, until the 80's, a Florida offer didn't mean much. They'd end the year ranked at best in the teens and even then, only a handful a times a decade. They'd mostly be unranked.

First, can't say that you are using the word "fact" correctly. Secondly, you are faulting the ratings for what exactly? "Oh no, they are using expert's opinions to creating a rating system! The horror!" Do you also fault movie rating websites for using professional movie critics rankings and compiling them into a single number? I don't get that criticism whatsoever.

Thirdly, they don't just rely on coaching staffs as evidenced by players generally being accurately ranked before schools typically start giving out scholarships. It's not that difficult to rate a player by watching several of their games and get pretty close.

Lastly, the recruiting service rankings end up being more accurate than the coach's in terms of overall talent. They largely come this success by the pooling of multiple data points, such as camps, HS tape, and offer lists. If you look at the accuracy of HS star rankings and compare to actual player success, it's more successful than just looking at a school's offer lists.

No doubt you and so many others know much more about the recruiting services evaluation process than I ever will. I admit I do get hung up on stars when I read about potential recruits.

But I have always had a problem with recruiting sites that will list a kid, who is a good athlete but statistically an average football player, as a three star...with a few offers from middle of the road P5 schools - then bang, Alabama or Auburn offers him and suddenly he becomes a four or five star. It is like these guys are letting coaching staffs do their evaluations for them. Isn't it their job to go out and scout these kids on their own?  Did the fact that Alabama and Auburn offered a kid a scholarship immediately make him a better football player?

Seems as if these sites are either lazy or just following top 10-15 programs around and using their offer lists as their own basis for ratings. I say every year that I am going to get more interested in recruiting and spend more time in the recruiting forum...but I always wind up getting my info from what you guys post on MMQB.
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Al Boarland

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With defense simple or complex doesnít really matter. Itís all about *talent*.
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wildhogman


With defense simple or complex doesn’t really matter. It’s all about execution.
Helping you out here a bit Al. You confused the last word a bit
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oldhog63


You can win with any style of offense or defense as long as you can execute.
No doubt. Watch the documentaries on Vince Lombardi. Green Bay won world championships basically running one play. But, they ran it to perfection.
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oldhog63


There is no single greater indicator of athletic talent out there. If you were able to blindly sign nothing but 5* players, you'd average at least 5 first round draft picks every single season and about 12-13 total draft picks.

That would equate to having half of your offense and half your defense being first round talents (noting that you'll have about 24 positions so you'll replace half your starters ever year) and your entire starting lineup would be NFL ready. That'd be akin to having Joey Bosa and Jadaveon Clowney as your starters with guys like Flowers being your second string.

It's all about probability. So, of course there are exceptions that end up proving the rule.
There is a lot of truth to this, but I think you are leaving out that almost all the 5*'s go to the best schools, with the best coaching, and best facilities. If you send all those 5*'s to an average school with an average coach and replace them with a group of 4*'s to the best schools with the best coaches, who ends up in the NFL? My guess is that the percent of 5*'s going pro go down replaced by the 4*'s that were developed and coached by the better situation.
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hogcards

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Makes one wonder why it would pop up just as Chavis and company are getting multiple commitments on defensive players, many of them from Texas.

Just coincidental, I'm sure . . .  ::)

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2018/08/07/report-former-am-defensive-starter-comments-simplicity-aggies-previous-defensive-scheme

I've previously heard this as well.  I guess we're about to see what kind of improvement Chavis is over the brilliant Paul Rhodes.  LOL. I don't think it should be too hard to improve on.
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