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Author Topic: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....  (Read 2245 times)

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Ben

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People say that mediocre coaches has hurt the hogs in their SEC tenure. Meanwhile, Holtz and Hatfield, two of the most prolific coaches in hog history did very well in their time with the Hogs, along with Petrino who in only 3 years had Arkansas as a Top 5 team in a BCS bowl.

That said, if it were Holtz and Hatfield were the coaches during Arkansas's transition in the SEC, would Arkansas's record and reputation be a lot better than what it is now? Or did Holtz and hatfield benefit off a weaker SWC?
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The Kig

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 06:03:25 pm »

IMO- Hatfield ran a pedantic offense and would have seen the same fate as Bielema.  Holtz was an exceptional coach and I think he would have flourished in the spotlight of the SEC.

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Steef

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 06:10:08 pm »

78 Orange Bowl.
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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2018, 06:14:45 pm »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.

majestic

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2018, 06:21:08 pm »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.
How do you figure? He had USC at their highest level ever for a couple of years. He beat Ohio State two years in a row in bowl games.

The SWC wasn't weak back in the day, either.

bphi11ips

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 09:51:25 pm »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.

South Carolina isnít similar to Arkansas in terms of football tradition and certainly wasnít in 1992:

https://collegefootballnews.com/2018/01/ap-college-football-rankings-greatest-programs-of-all-time

Arkansas welcomed South Carolina to the SEC 45-7 a week after losing 10-3 to The Citadel. Arkansas led the series 13-7 until 2012 began the worst 6 year run in 65 years of Razorbacks football. 

In 2018 the programs are similar in terms of potential, but Arkansas might be an entirely different program today had Lou Holtz been the coach in 1992 rather than Jack Crowe.

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Inhogswetrust

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2018, 10:03:08 pm »

How do you figure? He had USC at their highest level ever for a couple of years. He beat Ohio State two years in a row in bowl games.

The SWC wasn't weak back in the day, either.

He had both a losing overall record there and a losing conference record there. Granted his overall and conference records were skewed by his first year and not winning a single game. However even IF he had won all his conference games that first year his conference record would still be 2 games below .500. In others words his record was built on non conference wins and even with that he didnít have a .500 record due to his first year.

ShadowHawg

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 03:46:59 am »

Holtz went on to win a NC and Hatfield couldnít handle the ACC or expectations at Rice.

Holtz would have been a smoother transition while Hatfieldís legacy here would have taken a severe hit.

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2018, 07:53:52 am »

I'm not sure about Holtz, but I feel confident that had Broyles kept his nose out of Hatfield's coaching business and not run him off to Clemson (without ever visiting the CU campus!) after Arkansas' second straight SWC championship and second straight appearance in the Cotton Bowl, that Coach Hatfield would have provided stability and experience as the Hogs transitioned to the SEC in 1992. Hatfield still owns the school record for winning percentage at 76%. His teams weren't flashy, but the guy won...a lot! Three 10 win seasons and two 9 win seasons in six years at Arkansas.
Arkansas' recruiting classes certainly would have been better. I also believe it is reasonable to think that Hatfield would have eventually molded his option-I offense into what he was coaching at Rice, which was a more pro-style offense. He had already changed from the flexbone to the option-I before he left Fayetteville.
I am confident that Coach Hatfield would have been successful in the SEC after a couple of adjustment seasons, and Houston Nutt's tenure would have been delayed by 5-10 years, if it happened at all!
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ShadowHawg

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 08:36:35 am »

I'm not sure about Holtz, but I feel confident that had Broyles kept his nose out of Hatfield's coaching business and not run him off to Clemson (without ever visiting the CU campus!) after Arkansas' second straight SWC championship and second straight appearance in the Cotton Bowl, that Coach Hatfield would have provided stability and experience as the Hogs transitioned to the SEC in 1992. Hatfield still owns the school record for winning percentage at 76%. His teams weren't flashy, but the guy won...a lot! Three 10 win seasons and two 9 win seasons in six years at Arkansas.
Arkansas' recruiting classes certainly would have been better. I also believe it is reasonable to think that Hatfield would have eventually molded his option-I offense into what he was coaching at Rice, which was a more pro-style offense. He had already changed from the flexbone to the option-I before he left Fayetteville.
I am confident that Coach Hatfield would have been successful in the SEC after a couple of adjustment seasons, and Houston Nutt's tenure would have been delayed by 5-10 years, if it happened at all!

Clemson fans would disagree.
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hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 10:19:47 am »

They would have suffered from the same lack of comparable talent that all hog coaches in the sec have suffered from. When compared to the top teams in the league at any given time, the Hogs have not been able to get comparable talent because of several factors, which have been discussed here to the point they have been beaten to death so many times only dust remains.
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bphi11ips

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 10:31:43 am »

They would have suffered from the same lack of comparable talent that all hog coaches in the sec have suffered from. When compared to the top teams in the league at any given time, the Hogs have not been able to get comparable talent because of several factors, which have been discussed here to the point they have been beaten to death so many times only dust remains.

What you really mean is that you gave offered your opinion on the subject of Arkansasís lack of talent daily for many years. Many of us disagree with your thesis.

oldhog63

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 10:33:25 am »

IMO- Hatfield ran a pedantic offense and would have seen the same fate as Bielema.  Holtz was an exceptional coach and I think he would have flourished in the spotlight of the SEC.
Spot on!
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Nashville Fan

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 10:45:44 am »

Hatfield was 9-5-1 against current members of the SEC from 84-89. I would have taken that from Beliema.

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 01:31:39 pm by Nashville Fan »
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hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 11:52:32 am »

What you really mean is that you gave offered your opinion on the subject of Arkansasís lack of talent daily for many years. Many of us disagree with your thesis.

And many agree with it, thus the beaten to death. But okay, yea, we know, you think there is just tons of Bama type talent ( or GA or Tn or whenever happens to be at the top of the SEC pecking order at a particular point in time ) being ignored in Ar HS football because people look down at Arkansas. Well, even the coaches at Arkansas have not been able to find it, so maybe it just does not exist to start with.

I have seen with my own eyes over 40 years, when the Hogs have an exceptional year or two of instate recruits, the team is usually pretty good the year or two after those classes arrive. But if it is just average instate classes, then the team is usually in the 5-7 wins range.

King Kong

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2018, 11:58:46 am »

Absolutely would have gone better.

Still not the success we were having
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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 12:02:08 pm »

People say that mediocre coaches has hurt the hogs in their SEC tenure. Meanwhile, Holtz and Hatfield, two of the most prolific coaches in hog history did very well in their time with the Hogs, along with Petrino who in only 3 years had Arkansas as a Top 5 team in a BCS bowl.

That said, if it were Holtz and Hatfield were the coaches during Arkansas's transition in the SEC, would Arkansas's record and reputation be a lot better than what it is now? Or did Holtz and hatfield benefit off a weaker SWC?

If a frog 🐸 had wings he wouldnít bump his ass every time he jumped!
Why donít you leave it alone. Holtz and Hatfield were both successful at Arkansas when they were here during the SWC days. Back in those days the top teams in the SWC could compete with anyone. Find something else to wonder about, itís history and it doesnít matter! Both were great for the hogs during their days!
GHG🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗
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Been10Hog

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2018, 02:31:17 pm »

Hatfield took the team and players that Holtz had the year before. Holtz didn't make a bowl game and was fired his last year. Brad Taylor was definitely not a wishbone QB, yet Hatfield was able to use him and take him to a bowl game the year after Holtz was fired. Hatfield won 2 SWC championships and went to 2 Cotton Bowls. Holtz never won the league and never played in the Cotton Bowl. Holtz claim to fame was his first year. Frank's loaded team and the Orange Bowl. Under his direction the team went down leading to his firing. Hatfield continued to improve and teams were back to back SWC champs when he left for Clemson. Fans didn't like how Hatfield won and Frank wanted Hatfield to fire some of his staff, wouldn't commit to Hatfield with a contract. Hatfield had the Georgia job in hand the year before, and stayed because Frank said he would honor his word. Hit up Mike Irwin for the details! Being on the tonight show and winning at Notre Dame when you have better players than every team you play doesn't make you a better coach! Winning with inferior talent does!
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hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2018, 02:37:39 pm »


 Fans didn't like how Hatfield won


Everyone should let that sink in for just a minute or two.
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Jborohog09

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2018, 03:27:59 pm »

Hatfield was 6-5 against current members of the SEC from 84-89. I would have taken that from Beliema.

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Actually 5-0-1 against Ole Miss.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2018, 08:50:55 pm »

Everyone should let that sink in for just a minute or two.

Except that isnít the truth. Frank loved that Hatfield won. He didnít like other aspects at the time. Yes he meddled somewhat. Yes he wanted some assistants fired and Hatfield refused to do so. However from what I saw then some of those assistants deserved to be fired. Hatfields stubbornness and loyalty to them kept him from doing so. That was his perogative though. Basically the problem was butting heads of two strong willed people. Frank had his issues and so did Kenny. Everyone does. Unfortunately theirs eventually was too much to overcome and Kenny realized he would have to leave. Both had supporters and detractors.

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2018, 09:59:54 pm »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.

An old Holts isnít the same as a younger Holtz with more energy.
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DLUXHOG

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2018, 11:04:00 pm »

And..... what if, while youíre at it, either Barry Switzer or Jimmy Johnson had been the Hogs HC for a while?  (FYI, both of these men are two of only 3 coaches who to have won both NCAA national collegiate football titles, and, NFL Super Bowls...  the third coach also has ties to the U of A...)
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2018, 09:25:27 am »

And..... what if, while youíre at it, either Barry Switzer or Jimmy Johnson had been the Hogs HC for a while?  (FYI, both of these men are two of only 3 coaches who to have won both NCAA national collegiate football titles, and, NFL Super Bowls...  the third coach also has ties to the U of A...)

I can think of two that had ties to Arkansas as assistants but were not there when Arkansas won their championship. Joe Gibbs and Pete Carrol. So Iím stumped.

No wait Barry Switzer was an assistant on the 1964 NC team.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:27:10 am by Inhogswetrust »
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hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2018, 09:41:58 am »

Except that isnít the truth. Frank loved that Hatfield won. He didnít like other aspects at the time. Yes he meddled somewhat. Yes he wanted some assistants fired and Hatfield refused to do so. However from what I saw then some of those assistants deserved to be fired. Hatfields stubbornness and loyalty to them kept him from doing so. That was his perogative though. Basically the problem was butting heads of two strong willed people. Frank had his issues and so did Kenny. Everyone does. Unfortunately theirs eventually was too much to overcome and Kenny realized he would have to leave. Both had supporters and detractors.

No, it is true. Fans thought Hatfield's style was boring. I vividly remember being at a gathering one Say when the Hogs were playing Baylor. Hogs were struggling, and the adults in the room ( I was 17 at the time ) were whining about how this boring style was never going to get it done. Hogs came out in the 2nd half running the I with Rouse at TB, and you would have thought the Hogs had invented the wheel the way the people in that room were acting.

I did not say he got fired because the fans did not like they way they won, but you can not ignore the fact that many fans did indeed not like the way they played offense.
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redleg

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2018, 10:16:48 am »

Hatfield was 6-5 against current members of the SEC from 84-89. I would have taken that from Beliema.

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Hatfield was 5-0-1 vs Ole Miss. One of the two losses to A&M could have easily gone in favor of Arkansas. All three losses to Auburn, Georgia, and Tennessee were hotly contested games that also could have gone in favor of the Hogs (and probably should have!).
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2018, 10:18:18 am »

No, it is true. Fans thought Hatfield's style was boring. I vividly remember being at a gathering one Say when the Hogs were playing Baylor. Hogs were struggling, and the adults in the room ( I was 17 at the time ) were whining about how this boring style was never going to get it done. Hogs came out in the 2nd half running the I with Rouse at TB, and you would have thought the Hogs had invented the wheel the way the people in that room were acting.

I did not say he got fired because the fans did not like they way they won, but you can not ignore the fact that many fans did indeed not like the way they played offense.

I never in my whole post mentioned fans. Your post was a response to another one about Frank and Kenny and thatís  what I posted about. Agree some fans didnít like Kennyís offensive style and thought it was boring. Heck I wasnít to crazy about it myself but he won.

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2018, 10:34:51 am »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.
There is nothing similar about the football history between South Carolina and Arkansas. Carolina has done very well over the last 10-15 years, that's true. And they have a Heisman winner. Other than that, they aren't even close to having the tradition, victory's, bowl appearances, etc. that Arkansas has. SC only had 8 bowl games with 0 W's before they joined the SEC. 14 of their 22 bowl games, and all 9 wins have been between 1994 and now.
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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2018, 10:47:44 am »

So, I took a look at this using the AP polls from 1977-1989.  One of the questions was, "did Holtz and Hatfield benefit from a weaker SWC?"

Clearly, the SWC of then is weaker than the SEC of today.  But how did the SWC of Holtz's and Hatfield's respective eras line up with the SEC during that same time period?  For Holtz, pretty well; for Hatfield, not so much.

During the Holtz years (1977-1983), Arkansas' SWC opponents were ranked 222 times.  SEC teams were ranked 301 times during that time period.  So, the SEC has an edge, but not a crazy edge.  The teams from the leagues that were ranked most often during that time period were Alabama and Texas, with 95 and 92 appearances in the polls, respectively.  Seven SWC teams (including Arkansas) were ranked at least once during this period; 8 SEC teams were.  So, in my opinion, the SEC was a bit tougher league, but the two leagues were reasonably comparable during that period. 

During the Hatfield years, you can see the SWC begin to make its steady decline.  During the Hatfield years (1984-1989), Arkansas' SWC opponents were ranked in an AP poll only 143 times--about a 35% decline from the Holtz era, even though Holtz only coached 1 more season than Hatfield.  SEC teams posted 395 AP poll appearances during that same time period--about a 25% increase.  Every SEC team made at least one appearance in the poll during this period; while 8 of the SWC's 10 teams appeared in the poll.  The teams that were ranked most often were Auburn and Texas A&M, 94 and 44 times, respectively.

In my opinion, the SWC gave Holtz a rather slight advantage compared to the SEC of the same time period.  The SWC of the Hatfield years was considerably weaker than the SEC during the same time period.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:22:56 am by NaturalStateReb »
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2018, 10:49:39 am »

y'all realize Holtz DID coach in the SEC at a similar school, right? He got RAN.

Holtz also took over a wasteland at South Carolina.  At Arkansas, he took over for a coaching legend. 

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2018, 11:26:22 am »

So, I took a look at this using the AP polls from 1977-1989.  One of the questions was, "did Holtz and Hatfield benefit from a weaker SWC?"

Clearly, the SWC of then is weaker than the SEC of today.  But how did the SWC of Holtz's and Hatfield's respective eras line up with the SEC during that same time period?  For Holtz, pretty well; for Hatfield, not so much.

During the Holtz years (1977-1983), Arkansas' SWC opponents were ranked 222 times.  SEC teams were ranked 301 times during that time period.  So, the SEC has an edge, but not a crazy edge.  The teams from the leagues that were ranked most often during that time period were Alabama and Texas, with 95 and 92 appearances in the polls, respectively.  Seven SWC teams (including Arkansas) were ranked at least once during this period; 8 SEC teams were.  So, in my opinion, the SEC was a bit tougher league, but the two leagues were reasonably comparable during that period. 

During the Hatfield years, you can see the SWC begin to make its steady decline.  During the Hatfield years (1983-1989), Arkansas' SWC opponents were ranked in an AP poll only 143 times--about a 35% decline from the Holtz era, even though Holtz only coached 1 more season than Hatfield.  SEC teams posted 395 AP poll appearances during that same time period--about a 25% increase.  Every SEC team made at least one appearance in the poll during this period; while 8 of the SWC's 10 teams appeared in the poll.  The teams that were ranked most often were Auburn and Texas A&M, 94 and 44 times, respectively.

In my opinion, the SWC gave Holtz a rather slight advantage compared to the SEC of the same time period.  The SWC of the Hatfield years was considerably weaker than the SEC during the same time period.

Excellent research. Thanks for posting.

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2018, 01:31:56 pm »

Actually 5-0-1 against Ole Miss.
Thanks I fixed it. So I really would have taken his winning % over Beliema's :)
Worth noting that Ole Miss was middle to bottom of SEC during this period.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 10:56:53 am by Nashville Fan »
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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2018, 01:50:09 pm »

Fans complained about NR non-stop until he went to the first final four.  Repeated while we rebuilt until we went to back to back NC games.  Finally repeated the non-stop complaining until NR was fired.  Many still dislike him and think he only won with talent.  Hatfield won with an offense many didn't like and they like to say he was a mediocre coach.  Many fans tend to equate love of style with quality of coaching.  NR was a tremendous coach.  He may have did things unorthodox, but his players did them great.  He may have focused on other things more than traditional fundamentals such as blocking out, but he did those other things great too.  In the end, his players did what he coached them to do very will and won at a high level.  Many never would and still won't admit he was a great coach.  Hatfield's teams ran triple option football.  We were beating better talent with execution in many of the games we won.  His defensive units were undersized and less talented, but they played tremendous bend but don't break fundamentals and won games because our players were disciplined enough to let the other teams beat themselves.  Hatfield's teams were coached to a very high level.  They didn't set a school record for winning percentage because everyone else was down at the time.  They did it because they were coached at a high level to execute and win games.  Dislike the offense all you wan't, but Hatfield was one of the best coaches AR has ever had at Arkansas and there has been none close to him since in football.  He only coached at Clemson 4 years and he won 19 games the first two years.  Their fans soured on him when he was hired because they thought they should get a bigger name coach.  They then turned on him when he lost the bowl game the second year.  His third year was a "wheels fall off" season in which they started ranked high but finished with a losing record.  He bounced back to 8 wins the next year.  Hatfield followed coaches that had cheated to be successful at Clemson and he was as straight as an arrow.  He was never welcomed, wanted, and wasn't a good fit.  Timing was horrible for him as well.  None of that had anything to do with his coaching.  Rice?  Hatfield won back to back 7 win seasons in his 3rd and 4th year.  You have to back to the 50s to find one 7 win season regardless of coach for Rice football.  He then won 8 games a few years later. 
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2018, 02:39:41 pm »

We have this Hatfield discussion every few months.  Thanks NSR for illustrating what the SWC was the last half of the 80s.

What fans didn't like about Hatfield:

4-9 vs ranked teams.  6 seasons and only coached against 13 ranked teams including bowls.

1-5 in bowl games.  Including 42-8 embarrassment to OU and a record for offensive futility vs UCLA.

2-4 vs Texas including the Tony Jones catch, the ridiculous defense played and the defending of his DC and the choke job in 1989 in Fayetteville.  That 89 Texas team ended up 5-6 on the season. 
Texas' other records in the Hatfield era:
84: 7-4-1
85: 8-4
86: 5-6
87: 7-5
88: 4-7
Hatfield's two wins over Texas came in 86 and 88. 

Hatfield was a good football coach.  Not great.  And not a fit for an Arkansas or a Clemson.  He won games at Arkansas because we were better than the majority of our SWC opponents in that era.  The 88 SWC Champs played 0 ranked SWC teams.  The 89 team played 12 Hou and 14 A&M.

He should also not be remembered fondly for what he left on the defensive side.  It was a slow, archaic defense not meant to defend where offenses were going evidenced by what happened in 1990.  He set the program back years when recruiting slid right when we were about to step up into the SEC. 

His offense took some criticism but some other prominent programs still ran option football into the 90s.  It was effective and in games like 89 Houston and the 90 Cotton Bowl showed with a good qb and wr could be very effective throwing.  But it was also an offense which was nearing its end with the exception of the academies and GT.

We had a chance to hire an innovator in JJ.  Our program had an opportunity to be on the forefront of moving to where modern football was going.  Instead we went with Hatfield.  Played it safe and won like we had played it safe and ended up paying for it.  This is why you cannot compare this to Nolan.  Nolan was an innovator.  He was the JJ of basketball.  Fast aggressive defense and focus on speed. 

hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2018, 02:57:44 pm »

    We were beating better talent with execution in many of the games we won.


How do you figure that when we see: 4-9 vs ranked teams.  6 seasons and only coached against 13 ranked teams including bowls.

So he was beating better talented teams, yet he was only 4-9 against ranked teams.
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DLUXHOG

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2018, 06:42:28 pm »

I can think of two that had ties to Arkansas as assistants but were not there when Arkansas won their championship. Joe Gibbs and Pete Carrol. So Iím stumped.

No wait Barry Switzer was an assistant on the 1964 NC team.

Answer (all three share significant ties to Arkansas football and are the only head coaches to accomplish both NCAA championships and Super Bowl wins...)

Jimmy Johnson - won NCAA championship at Miami and two, Super Bowls at DALLAS (he played on the Arkansas 1964 NC team)
Barry Switzer- won several NCAA championships at OU and one Super Bowl at Dallas..(played football for Arkansas in the late 50ís and was an assistant coach under Broyles in the early 60ís).
Pete Carol - won NCAA national championship at USC and one Super Bowl at Seattle (was a grad assistant to Lou Holtz in the 70ís at Arkansas)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:37:57 pm by DLUXHOG »
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hawgfan4life

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2018, 10:37:32 pm »

How do you figure that when we see: 4-9 vs ranked teams.  6 seasons and only coached against 13 ranked teams including bowls.

So he was beating better talented teams, yet he was only 4-9 against ranked teams.

Not every unranked team was a cupcake nor did unranked mean less talented.  Hard to believe our schedule was so tough up until Hatfield and then got tougher after.  What luck for Hatfield he coached in a short period of time nobody we played were any good.  That explains his all-time winning record for Arkansas.
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2018, 09:18:06 am »

Not every unranked team was a cupcake nor did unranked mean less talented.  Hard to believe our schedule was so tough up until Hatfield and then got tougher after.  What luck for Hatfield he coached in a short period of time nobody we played were any good.  That explains his all-time winning record for Arkansas.

I think Hatfield was a good coach working in a league that was beginning to fall apart.  During the Holtz years, the team most often ranked in the SWC was Texas, and it was ranked 92 times.  During the Hatfield years--immediately following the Holtz years with no break--the most ranked team was A&M, and it was only ranked 44 times.  During the Hatfield years, Texas ranked a mere 22 times total--the same as Houston and just 3 more times than Baylor.  That's 3 less than SMU during that time, even though SMU didn't even field a team in 1987 or 1988.  Clearly, the wheels were all of the way off the SWC's strongest program. 

Around the league, SMU didn't play 2 years.  Even though A&M lead the way in rankings during the Hatfield years with 44 appearances in the polls, 29 of those appearances came in just 2 seasons--1986 and 1989.  15 of SMU's 25 appearances came in a single year--1984.  Texas appeared in the 1984 poll 15 times, too, but only put in 7 total appearances over the next 6 years.  Most of Houston's appearances came in 1989.  All of Texas Tech and TCU's appearances came in single seasons.

Compare that with the SEC:  Auburn, LSU, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida all made more than 10 appearances in at least 2 years, and 4 of those teams made more than 10 appearances at least 3 seasons (Auburn, LSU, and Bama managed it 6, 5, and 5 years, respectively). 

During the Hatfield era, there were three seasons where only a single SWC team finished ranked (1984, 1987, 1988).  Hatfield's best year was probably 1985, when Arkansas missed a perfect season by a total of 6 points in two losses to Texas and A&M, and finished up with a bowl win over Arizona State.  One stat definitely in Hatfield's favor--Arkansas was the only SWC team to post a winning season every year from 1984 to 1989.



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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2018, 09:27:49 am »

The 1988 defense was one of the best defenses Arkansas has ever fielded. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
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31to6

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2018, 09:28:47 am »

Hatfield won with an offense many didn't like and they like to say he was a mediocre coach. 
Hatfield was a good coach. But his stubbornness was his undoing.

People hated his offense because we would dominate in the SWC and then lose the bowl. He went to a bowl every year: very consistent. But he only won one of them.

Losing by 35ish to OU and then only putting up 42 total yards against UCLA were quite embarrassing.

redleg

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2018, 09:47:51 am »

Hatfield was a good coach. But his stubbornness was his undoing.

People hated his offense because we would dominate in the SWC and then lose the bowl. He went to a bowl every year: very consistent. But he only won one of them.

Losing by 35ish to OU and then only putting up 42 total yards against UCLA were quite embarrassing.
OU was a monster back them. No excuse for losing by that much, but still. The 89 Cotton Bowl loss to UCLA was frustrating for me, because the defense held Troy Aikman and the Bruins to 17 points, even without Wayne Martin, who was on suspension. The offense did suffer because Freddie Childress was suspended for the game, but they should have been able to move the ball better than they did. The bowl losses that hurt the most during Hatfield's tenure were the 90 Cotton Bowl and the 87 Liberty Bowl. The Hogs should have won both of those games.
As for Hatfield going 2-4 vs Texas, that is extremely frustrating too. Hatfield should have won 5 in a row, from 85-89. 85-missed numerous field goals, while Texas beat us with 5 FGs. Won in 86. 87-lost on the last play of the game  >:(. Won in 88. 89- laid a gigantic egg versus an inferior team, and it probably cost them a chance to win the 1989 national title.

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2018, 10:19:23 am »

Answer (all three share significant ties to Arkansas football and are the only head coaches to accomplish both NCAA championships and Super Bowl wins...)

Jimmy Johnson - won NCAA championship at Miami and two, Super Bowls at DALLAS (he played on the Arkansas 1964 NC team)
Barry Switzer- won several NCAA championships at OU and one Super Bowl at Dallas..(played football for Arkansas in the late 50ís and was an assistant coach under Broyles in the early 60ís).
Pete Carol - won NCAA national championship at USC and one Super Bowl at Seattle (was a grad assistant to Lou Holtz in the 70ís at Arkansas)


You are correct. Dang I was totally confused.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2018, 12:10:12 pm »

Love Hatfield .
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2018, 01:18:59 pm »

The 1988 defense was one of the best defenses Arkansas has ever fielded. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

1985 was a good defensive year, too.  They gave up less than 12 points per game. 
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Nashville Fan

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2018, 09:57:49 am »

Love Hatfield .
Me too. I think Hatfield studied accounting at UofA. Number people seem to make good coaches for some reason.
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hawgfan4life

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2018, 12:13:18 pm »

Hatfield was a good coach. But his stubbornness was his undoing.

People hated his offense because we would dominate in the SWC and then lose the bowl. He went to a bowl every year: very consistent. But he only won one of them.

Losing by 35ish to OU and then only putting up 42 total yards against UCLA were quite embarrassing.

I believe it was an equal share of Broyles' stubbornness that was Hatfield's undoing along with an equal share of fans being unsatisfied with how we were winning.  Passing offenses were the new big thing and attacking defenses.  AR rarely passed and played bend but don't break defense.  Few fans were ever really happy.  Hatfield didn't leave for Clemson without a visit there and after back to back cotton bowls because he was stubborn and everyone else was content.  Likewise, Broyles was out of line meddling in the program when it was winning at a high level and fans were out of touch with expectations too.
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hogsanity

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2018, 12:46:00 pm »

fans were out of touch with expectations too.


well, some things have not changed
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Busta_Nutt

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2018, 12:58:53 pm »

South Carolina isnít similar to Arkansas in terms of football tradition and certainly wasnít in 1992:

https://collegefootballnews.com/2018/01/ap-college-football-rankings-greatest-programs-of-all-time

Arkansas welcomed South Carolina to the SEC 45-7 a week after losing 10-3 to The Citadel. Arkansas led the series 13-7 until 2012 began the worst 6 year run in 65 years of Razorbacks football. 

In 2018 the programs are similar in terms of potential, but Arkansas might be an entirely different program today had Lou Holtz been the coach in 1992 rather than Jack Crowe.

Tradition doesn't matter. S. Carolina could just as easily say that they might be an entirely different program today had Steve Spurrier been the coach in 1992 rather than Sparky Woods. At the end of the day, S. Carolina has had a far better football program for the past decade and if tradition meant anything then this wouldn't be the case.

wildturkey8

Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2018, 03:08:54 pm »

At the end of the day, S. Carolina has had a far better football program for the past decade and if tradition meant anything then this wouldn't be the case.
Really your statement is not correct.  Sure, the record maybe better, they bested in a couple of Bert induced disasters.  They are just like us the last 6 years.  We pretty much had our way with them before Bert.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: If Holtz and Hatfield coached when Arkansas moved to the SEC....
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2018, 03:17:08 pm »

Really your statement is not correct.  Sure, the record maybe better, they bested in a couple of Bert induced disasters.  They are just like us the last 6 years.  We pretty much had our way with them before Bert.

Really your statement is not correct. In the last 6 years, our peak win total is 8 games. In the last 6 years, South Carolina has won 11 games twice.

Last 10 years

Resume A: 67-59 record. 6 bowls, 4-2 bowl record. 1 10+ win season, 1 11+ win season.

Resume B: 81-49 record. 9 bowls, 5-4 bowl record. 3 11+ win seasons.

I'll take candidate B. Wouldn't you?

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