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Author Topic: SWC days percent of roster from Texas  (Read 1228 times)

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luke hawg

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SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« on: July 07, 2018, 11:39:34 pm »

In our SWC days what percentage of the roster was from Texas? I tried to look up our last SWC championship team in 89 but couldn't find where the players were from. Obviously I'm asking for a guess.
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jgphillips3

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2018, 11:47:50 pm »

In our SWC days what percentage of the roster was from Texas? I tried to look up our last SWC championship team in 89 but couldn't find where the players were from. Obviously I'm asking for a guess.

If you are going off scholarship players, rather than including walk ons (which are usually going to be local), my recollection is something between 25-35% most years.  Just as an example, youíd usually get 10-12 from Arkansas, 8-10 from Texas and the remainder from other places.  Of course, that was before signing limits and you would have classes the broke the norm but when we played four games a year in Texas, thatís about how it broke down.  Iím sure someone can find actual statistics but thatís just how I recall it.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 06:14:16 am »

In our SWC days what percentage of the roster was from Texas? I tried to look up our last SWC championship team in 89 but couldn't find where the players were from. Obviously I'm asking for a guess.

This isn't going to give you an immediate answer, but here is how you could probably get an answer to your question.

http://library.uark.edu/record=b1510190~S0
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redleg

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 08:01:39 am »

If you are going off scholarship players, rather than including walk ons (which are usually going to be local), my recollection is something between 25-35% most years.  Just as an example, youíd usually get 10-12 from Arkansas, 8-10 from Texas and the remainder from other places.  Of course, that was before signing limits and you would have classes the broke the norm but when we played four games a year in Texas, thatís about how it broke down.  Iím sure someone can find actual statistics but thatís just how I recall it.
There were signing limits by 1989. The NCAA began implementing more regulations on that kind of stuff in the 1970s. I seem to remember Coach Hatfield having as many as three or four recruiters just for Texas. It was, and traditionally is, a major recruiting area, especially DFW metro and the outlaying towns.

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 11:16:50 am »

There were signing limits by 1989. The NCAA began implementing more regulations on that kind of stuff in the 1970s. I seem to remember Coach Hatfield having as many as three or four recruiters just for Texas. It was, and traditionally is, a major recruiting area, especially DFW metro and the outlaying towns.
Scholarships were limited to 30 per year in the 1974 season and the 30-95 rule was in full effect in 1978
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snoblind

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2018, 12:18:18 pm »

I remember being told stories by one of my coaches back in the early 70's.  This was circa 61 or 62.  Arkansas would bring in an insane amount of freshmen.  Then Wilson Matthews would proceed to try to kill them.  If you survived you were on the team.  My coach decided AIC ball was a better fit.
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hawgfan4life

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 01:47:33 pm »

That era was so much different than today, that it is really not good to compare the two as comparable.  TX was and is important for recruiting.  However, today's recruiting is nowhere near the same as it was in the 60s - 90s.  Satellite TV, changes in airlines, improved roads, and the fact that recruits are far more open to signing in non-regional programs make it non-comparable.  A coach today can catch a jet to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and just about anywhere in the country, rent a car, visit several major schools and recruits and be home for supper whereas it used to be an overnight trip to visit one school and one recruit.  It was a huge deal to attempt to recruit in south Florida, in Georgia, etc.  Texas was logical because DFW and Houston were about as close as any major airports, TX offered an abundance of recruits, and TX athletes would be on regional TV a couple of times per year if they played at AR.  We recruited the athletes not going to OU, Notre Dame, and other national powers that would be on national TV each year, but their family and friends would still see them on TV a couple of times and then in a bowl game.  Now, with ESPN 3, SEC network, satellite, internet, etc, practically every game can be viewed in some fashion and that is no longer a concern.  That allows AR to greatly expand its recruiting area.  Now we can go to the Atlanta area, South Florida, and other major areas in a day or two.  Too many people are living in the past with their overzealous concern about Texas recruiting.  No doubt that Texas is an important area for Arkansas.  However, Tulsa, Northern Louisiana, Memphis, Atlanta area, Miami area, Saint Louis, and other areas should not be ignored for the sake of recruiting Texas.  Where we used to get 10 from Texas, it may be now that we get 5 and the other 5 from other regions.  It doesn't matter where they are from nearly as much as it matters how good they are.

luke hawg

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 04:59:24 pm »

That era was so much different than today, that it is really not good to compare the two as comparable.  TX was and is important for recruiting.  However, today's recruiting is nowhere near the same as it was in the 60s - 90s.  Satellite TV, changes in airlines, improved roads, and the fact that recruits are far more open to signing in non-regional programs make it non-comparable.  A coach today can catch a jet to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and just about anywhere in the country, rent a car, visit several major schools and recruits and be home for supper whereas it used to be an overnight trip to visit one school and one recruit.  It was a huge deal to attempt to recruit in south Florida, in Georgia, etc.  Texas was logical because DFW and Houston were about as close as any major airports, TX offered an abundance of recruits, and TX athletes would be on regional TV a couple of times per year if they played at AR.  We recruited the athletes not going to OU, Notre Dame, and other national powers that would be on national TV each year, but their family and friends would still see them on TV a couple of times and then in a bowl game.  Now, with ESPN 3, SEC network, satellite, internet, etc, practically every game can be viewed in some fashion and that is no longer a concern.  That allows AR to greatly expand its recruiting area.  Now we can go to the Atlanta area, South Florida, and other major areas in a day or two.  Too many people are living in the past with their overzealous concern about Texas recruiting.  No doubt that Texas is an important area for Arkansas.  However, Tulsa, Northern Louisiana, Memphis, Atlanta area, Miami area, Saint Louis, and other areas should not be ignored for the sake of recruiting Texas.  Where we used to get 10 from Texas, it may be now that we get 5 and the other 5 from other regions.  It doesn't matter where they are from nearly as much as it matters how good they are.

I agree that changes in media coverage, logistics, and conference affiliation has made recruiting very different. We can cast a wider net. This being said the greatest indicator of where a recruit will ultimately commit is proximity to home. There are 5-7 SEC level players from Arkansas every year that generally end up being the face of our program. We can usually pull another 5-7 quality players from Louisiana, Oklahoma, Memphis, ATL metro, S. Florida, Missouri. The rest probably need to come from Texas for us to see improved talent on the field. This means 8-10 per year. It's one of the top 5 recruiting hotbeds in the country less than 6 hrs away.
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hawgfan4life

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2018, 11:05:07 pm »

I agree that changes in media coverage, logistics, and conference affiliation has made recruiting very different. We can cast a wider net. This being said the greatest indicator of where a recruit will ultimately commit is proximity to home. There are 5-7 SEC level players from Arkansas every year that generally end up being the face of our program. We can usually pull another 5-7 quality players from Louisiana, Oklahoma, Memphis, ATL metro, S. Florida, Missouri. The rest probably need to come from Texas for us to see improved talent on the field. This means 8-10 per year. It's one of the top 5 recruiting hotbeds in the country less than 6 hrs away.
Studies demonstrate proximity to home is a critical component to recruiting.  Kansas City, St Louis, Memphis, Tulsa, OKC, Shreveport, and urban areas in MO, KS, OK, Northern LA, Western TN all are equal in proximity to most of East TX from Houston North.  I agree TX is critical to our overall success.  However, it is nothing like it used to be where we went into TX, signed a few TX top 100 and another ten projects.  We can hit so many more areas in less time and effort now that we can sign better developmental players from other areas and not so many high risk TX athletes.  The TX era fans refer is gone! Replaced with great football throughout the entire nation, recruits that coaches can reach with a text or a tweet versus a hand written card by snail mail.  Our greatest consistent success was when AR ran option football with Astonís emphasis on ball control.  Yet, we see that football has evolved far past the traditional option football with high run to pass emphasis.  Now it is option from spread, RPO, and option routes for the receivers.  Still a lot of option, but not really comparable.  Forsaking TX for other states outside of AR and border states would have been recruiting suicide in the 90s and before.  Now it is critical that we include those areas with high effort in TX.  GA, LA, AL, FL are overflowing with talent and we have to recruit those areas too. 

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2018, 11:14:41 pm »

Studies demonstrate proximity to home is a critical component to recruiting.  Kansas City, St Louis, Memphis, Tulsa, OKC, Shreveport, and urban areas in MO, KS, OK, Northern LA, Western TN all are equal in proximity to most of East TX from Houston North.  I agree TX is critical to our overall success.  However, it is nothing like it used to be where we went into TX, signed a few TX top 100 and another ten projects.  We can hit so many more areas in less time and effort now that we can sign better developmental players from other areas and not so many high risk TX athletes.  The TX era fans refer is gone! Replaced with great football throughout the entire nation, recruits that coaches can reach with a text or a tweet versus a hand written card by snail mail.  Our greatest consistent success was when AR ran option football with Astonís emphasis on ball control.  Yet, we see that football has evolved far past the traditional option football with high run to pass emphasis.  Now it is option from spread, RPO, and option routes for the receivers.  Still a lot of option, but not really comparable.  Forsaking TX for other states outside of AR and border states would have been recruiting suicide in the 90s and before.  Now it is critical that we include those areas with high effort in TX.  GA, LA, AL, FL are overflowing with talent and we have to recruit those areas too. 

check real stats and get back to us....
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luke hawg

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2018, 12:38:11 am »

Studies demonstrate proximity to home is a critical component to recruiting.  Kansas City, St Louis, Memphis, Tulsa, OKC, Shreveport, and urban areas in MO, KS, OK, Northern LA, Western TN all are equal in proximity to most of East TX from Houston North.  I agree TX is critical to our overall success.  However, it is nothing like it used to be where we went into TX, signed a few TX top 100 and another ten projects.  We can hit so many more areas in less time and effort now that we can sign better developmental players from other areas and not so many high risk TX athletes.  The TX era fans refer is gone! Replaced with great football throughout the entire nation, recruits that coaches can reach with a text or a tweet versus a hand written card by snail mail.  Our greatest consistent success was when AR ran option football with Astonís emphasis on ball control.  Yet, we see that football has evolved far past the traditional option football with high run to pass emphasis.  Now it is option from spread, RPO, and option routes for the receivers.  Still a lot of option, but not really comparable.  Forsaking TX for other states outside of AR and border states would have been recruiting suicide in the 90s and before.  Now it is critical that we include those areas with high effort in TX.  GA, LA, AL, FL are overflowing with talent and we have to recruit those areas too.

Google recruiting hotbed heat map and tell me 40 percent of every class shouldn't come from DFW and East Texas. The next 30 percent can come from Arkansas. The rest should be from the best available in Louisiana, Oklahoma, Mississippi, ATL metro, and South Florida. Those schools in Texas are close enough to build a pipeline right up US 259. Its a legit hotbed like south Louisiana, south Florida, Houston, and Atlanta. Yes Dallas kid have to bypass Norman but it's by far our best shot at being relevant.
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ThatGUY

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2018, 08:55:16 am »

THE SWC is dead now, the switch was made and Frank Broyles chose the $$$ of the SEC.
The Footprint had to shift thus losing the Texas recruits, when you go from playing ALL TX school to 1 maybe 2 a year the attraction for the recruits goes away.
Now with A&M selling "PLAY IN THE SEC" and stay "HOME"...hard for Arkansas to battle the Big Boys for top TX talent.
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luke hawg

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2018, 09:34:58 am »

THE SWC is dead now, the switch was made and Frank Broyles chose the $$$ of the SEC.
The Footprint had to shift thus losing the Texas recruits, when you go from playing ALL TX school to 1 maybe 2 a year the attraction for the recruits goes away.
Now with A&M selling "PLAY IN THE SEC" and stay "HOME"...hard for Arkansas to battle the Big Boys for top TX talent.

BS! We can do a lot better in the closest recruiting hotbed to fayetteville. We been trying to shift towards SEC territory and getting our backside handed to us for over 25 years. I challenge you to look at our baseball team roster then compare it to football.
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ThatGUY

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 09:43:57 am »

Teams recruiting better in TX
TEXAS
A&M
OU
OSU
TCU
BAMA
AUBURN
LSU
BAYLOR
Ohio St
once those teams hand oick who they want.... and they do!!
What is left over?
2 and 3 stars
expect to contend in the SECW with 3 stars?
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2018, 01:35:12 pm »

Teams recruiting better in TX
TEXAS
A&M
OU
OSU
TCU
BAMA
AUBURN
LSU
BAYLOR
Ohio St
once those teams hand oick who they want.... and they do!!
What is left over?
2 and 3 stars
expect to contend in the SECW with 3 stars?

I'm not going to say that "stars don't matter" because I think they do, but keep in mind the following on stars:

  • The number of 4 and 5 star recruits are set arbitrarily by the recruiting services.  This gives an illusion of scarcity or desirability.  Only about .01 percent of senior players, usually around 40 or so, are rated as 5-star recruits.  About .013 percent, or about 400, are considered 4 star recruits.
  • 3 star players are very good players.  It's pretty rare to be rated at all, really.  Less than 2% of all college football playing seniors, statistically, receive any rating.  About 1,500 players are typically rated 3 stars.  Those players might not be 4 or 5 stars, but they're still top 2% performers.  That might not be top-top elite, necessarily, but they're still pretty elite overall.  You can build a competitive team with them.
  • Recruiting rankings and ratings aren't a scientific process.  They're part opinion, part marketing.  The marketing part is performed by the services themselves; it drives interest in the product.  A player rating is also driven by opinion--maybe informed, educated opinion, but opinion nonetheless.  Sometimes that opinion gets influenced based on what schools are in the mix--a player's rating can go up just by the fact that Alabama or Ohio State is interested, even if nothing really changed about the kid's capabilities.  Lots of opinions may provide a broader perspective, but they can't transform themselves into a fact; they're still just a pile of opinions.

ThatGUY

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2018, 03:06:57 pm »

I agree there is usually a diamond in the rough type....
A good mix of 3 and 4 star guys will get you where you want to be usually.
I say usually because when you are going again the recruiting powerhouses of BAMA, UGA and AUburn... a class of only 3 stars wont cut it.
Can not continue to finish in the bottom half of the conference recruiting standings and wonder why there is no improvement
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luke hawg

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2018, 05:53:01 pm »

Teams recruiting better in TX
TEXAS
A&M
OU
OSU
TCU
BAMA
AUBURN
LSU
BAYLOR
Ohio St
once those teams hand oick who they want.... and they do!!
What is left over?
2 and 3 stars
expect to contend in the SECW with 3 stars?

You can apply that logic to every state outside of Arkansas. We have a better opportunity in Texas than anywhere else. We are starting from zero in regards to popularity amongst teens. The only way to change that is winning with players from areas that regularly produce talent making us appealing to future blue chip players from same schools
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LZH

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Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2018, 06:55:09 pm »

CM already has a relationship with most of these high schools. I am just now getting a buzz and am an hour from dinner, so Frank ya if you can't take a joke, but if we can steal a few players that would have ended at OU or Texas, I'd say he's doing his job.
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31to6

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2018, 08:23:11 pm »

Teams recruiting better in TX
TEXAS
A&M
OU
OSU
TCU
BAMA
AUBURN
LSU
BAYLOR
Ohio St
once those teams hand oick who they want.... and they do!!
What is left over?
2 and 3 stars
expect to contend in the SECW with 3 stars?
You can make a similar list for the other 48 states.

Fact is we have to start somewhere and the TOLA footprint is the richest recruiting footprint within reasonable distance of our campus.

We have already proven we can win recruiting battles in Texas over the schools on your list.

Investing significant effort there just makes sense in so many different ways.

Alternately we could accept your doom and gloom and shut down the program.

greasy_corner

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2018, 11:15:39 pm »

I'm not going to say that "stars don't matter" because I think they do, but keep in mind the following on stars:

  • The number of 4 and 5 star recruits are set arbitrarily by the recruiting services.  This gives an illusion of scarcity or desirability.  Only about .01 percent of senior players, usually around 40 or so, are rated as 5-star recruits.  About .013 percent, or about 400, are considered 4 star recruits.
  • 3 star players are very good players.  It's pretty rare to be rated at all, really.  Less than 2% of all college football playing seniors, statistically, receive any rating.  About 1,500 players are typically rated 3 stars.  Those players might not be 4 or 5 stars, but they're still top 2% performers.  That might not be top-top elite, necessarily, but they're still pretty elite overall.  You can build a competitive team with them.
  • Recruiting rankings and ratings aren't a scientific process.  They're part opinion, part marketing.  The marketing part is performed by the services themselves; it drives interest in the product.  A player rating is also driven by opinion--maybe informed, educated opinion, but opinion nonetheless.  Sometimes that opinion gets influenced based on what schools are in the mix--a player's rating can go up just by the fact that Alabama or Ohio State is interested, even if nothing really changed about the kid's capabilities.  Lots of opinions may provide a broader perspective, but they can't transform themselves into a fact; they're still just a pile of opinions.

This is completely true.  Recruiting is a third-party business. I've always found it interesting that the "services" don't realize the untapped market they have in Razorback fans. 

Most, not all, but most 5 stars are difference makers.  The rest are in the noise and can be coached up and put in a position to win games on the field.   Kids from AR and TX fit this bill nicely.

secfan30

Re: SWC days percent of roster from Texas
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2018, 11:29:40 pm »

CM already has a relationship with most of these high schools. I am just now getting a buzz and am an hour from dinner, so Frank ya if you can't take a joke, but if we can steal a few players that would have ended at OU or Texas, I'd say he's doing his job.

Agreed. Living down here in Texas and knowing a few people in the coaching profession down in Texas, trust me, we are in better shape for Texas recruits than we have been in 30 years.
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