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Author Topic: Reciever position(including TE)  (Read 1680 times)

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Cinco de Hogo

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Reciever position(including TE)
« on: June 14, 2018, 07:17:15 am »

Seems this has been the postion we have seen the most movement, incoming and outgoing.  I don’t know all the names and i’m Not making a statement other than movement.

I was just looking for opinions from those more knowledgeable than myself.  I “think” or “feel”  we have upgraded in that sly way CBP was always able to do although it might be hard for the common fan such as myself to see.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:56:08 pm by Cinco de Hogo »
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bennyl08

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 12:16:38 am »

Seems this has been the postion we have seen the most movement, incoming and outgoing.  I don’t know all the names and i’m Not making a statement other than movement.

I was just looking for opinions from those more knowledgeable than myself.  I “think” or “feel”  we have upgraded in that sly way CBP was always able to do although it might be hard for the common fan such as myself to see.

The "sly way"? Adams, Hamilton, and Wright were all at least 4" recruits, with Childs as lowest rated of the big 4.

Not to mention our best RB was a 4* as well as all 3 starting qb's under Petrino, 2 of which he recruiting.

So, I suppose my point/question is, in what way was what Petrino did sly?

Petrino didn't do anything that most other coaches don't also do. He recruited the best players that he could, he practiced focusing on the details, and on game day, he called good games, but even then, he wasn't a tricky playcaller. He was very much a hat on a hat type of guy, who didn't try to fool defenses or hope they get confused. He wanted defenses to execute exactly how the defense hopes to, because his playcall is designed to take advantage of t he defensive reads.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 10:49:32 am »

The "sly way"? Adams, Hamilton, and Wright were all at least 4" recruits, with Childs as lowest rated of the big 4.

Not to mention our best RB was a 4* as well as all 3 starting qb's under Petrino, 2 of which he recruiting.

So, I suppose my point/question is, in what way was what Petrino did sly?

Petrino didn't do anything that most other coaches don't also do. He recruited the best players that he could, he practiced focusing on the details, and on game day, he called good games, but even then, he wasn't a tricky playcaller. He was very much a hat on a hat type of guy, who didn't try to fool defenses or hope they get confused. He wanted defenses to execute exactly how the defense hopes to, because his playcall is designed to take advantage of t he defensive reads.

Obviously you don’t understand what I meant and I didn’t explain my comment in the OP.

Other than the haul his first year fans on this board criticized BP’s recruiting year after year yet he won more and more.  Yes that was partly because he was an exceptional coach but it was also the “sly” way he continued to find the right players and fill out the roster.  I call it “sly” because many many posters on here just couldn’t grasp how he would be able to continue his level of success based on what they understood about recruiting.   
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bennyl08

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 02:29:11 pm »

Obviously you don’t understand what I meant and I didn’t explain my comment in the OP.

Other than the haul his first year fans on this board criticized BP’s recruiting year after year yet he won more and more.  Yes that was partly because he was an exceptional coach but it was also the “sly” way he continued to find the right players and fill out the roster.  I call it “sly” because many many posters on here just couldn’t grasp how he would be able to continue his level of success based on what they understood about recruiting.

You don't think it might have had something to do with those freshmen early on becoming upperclassmen in later years?

Your argument is that the signing of 3* guys who didn't see the field is why we won more rather than the maturation of guys like Mallett, Wilson, Davis, Adams, Wright, etc...?

The depth chart barely changed from 2009 through 2011.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 03:01:27 pm »

You don't think it might have had something to do with those freshmen early on becoming upperclassmen in later years?

Your argument is that the signing of 3* guys who didn't see the field is why we won more rather than the maturation of guys like Mallett, Wilson, Davis, Adams, Wright, etc...?

The depth chart barely changed from 2009 through 2011.

Since your taking things the way you wish I’ll ask a question back, do you not believe he would have sustained a top flight program(by Arkansas standards)?  At the time and after Smiley and the hiring of Bret that opinion was all the rage around here.  I simply have presented my opinion that CBP knew what he was doing in recruiting and assembling a team that he could win with.   Those four or five he got his first year is not what it takes to sustain a program.  You have to add quality players along the line and Gosh knows they weren’t here in 2008.
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bennyl08

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 11:55:56 pm »

Since your taking things the way you wish I’ll ask a question back, do you not believe he would have sustained a top flight program(by Arkansas standards)?  At the time and after Smiley and the hiring of Bret that opinion was all the rage around here.  I simply have presented my opinion that CBP knew what he was doing in recruiting and assembling a team that he could win with.   Those four or five he got his first year is not what it takes to sustain a program.  You have to add quality players along the line and Gosh knows they weren’t here in 2008.

I'm not taking things the way I wish, I was asking if my interpretation of your post was indeed what you were trying to communicate. Given your response here, I take it that I was at least pretty close and not wildly mis-interpreting what you were saying.

As luck would have it, Petrino brought in 5 recruiting classes and the last class of his has fully graduated, so we can at least somewhat objectively look at the what he did and how things were trending. Note that I'm not comparing rosters as they were at the time (i.e. comparing what was inherited in situ) but instead, am instead looking at the final products. Of course, there will be a bit of what-ifs and subjectivity given that many of the players played significantly under other coaching staffs. However, given Bielema's track record with the NFL before and after coming to Arkansas, I feel safe in assuming that nobody would have gone to the NFL that didn't had Petrino been coach.

So, to make a point of emphasis, I'll compare the '08 and '09 classes of Petrino's to the '10, '11, and '12 classes. I'm betting the '08 and '09 classes will greatly outshine the remaining 3 combined, but I haven't actually started tallying stuff yet, so let's find out. Also, ideally I'd split the below into columns, but it becomes hard to read for people who don't have bigger computer monitors so, I won't do that.

2008-2009:
Drafted NFL talent:
T. Wilson, R. Mallett
K. Davis
J. Adams, J. Wright, G. Childs, C. Hamilton
C. Gragg
T. Swanson,
T. Wright

Undrafted but made the NFL anyways:
D. Johnson, R. Wingo Jr,
A. Bailey
R. Thomas
J. Nelson, R. Rassner,

No NFL but still solid contributors:
B. Green
D. Hurd
L. Askew, A. Davis, Z. Stadther, D. Jones
T. Thomas, D. Winston
D. Breeding

Talent but didn't work out:
D. Curtis
______________________________________________

2010-2012:
Drafted NFL talent:
B. Allen
K. Small, J. Williams
J. Sprinkle
C. Smith, T. Flowers, D. Wise Jr, D. Philon
T. Mitchel
Z. Hocker

Undrafted but made the NFL anyways:
J. Herndon, K. Hatcher, M. McKay*
O. Peters*
G. Gatson

No NFL but still solid contributors:
K. Walker
J. Horton*
M. Smothers, B. Cook, J. Peacock
B. Jones, T. Johnson, J. Winston
A. Highsmith, AJ Turner*
A. Turner, R. Gaines, W. Hines*, J. Collins

Talent but didn't work out:
M. Wade,

* Here means I'm projecting a bit. Peters and McKay did go on to make NFL teams after transferring as UDFA's, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't have been able to do the same while here. I'm also projecting that Turner may have turned into a solid contributor had he stayed, though was never NFL material, and I'm also projecting Hines and Turner would have been solid players.

Lot of stuff posted right here, but what is it really saying? Let's break things down a bit more by position and it really spells things out, IMO.

QB: First year brought in Wilson and Mallett. Didn't bring in another NFL-level player until 4 classes later in Allen. Definite decrease in recruiting there in terms of frequency (averaging 1 per year in the first two and one every three years after (technically 2 per year in year 1 and 1 every 4 after, but there's year to year variability to best to try to break things up into a first half and a second half to smooth some of the year to year chance)).

RB: Knile Davis was an absolute stud of a player, and was complimented by the likes of Johnson, Green, and Wingo, two of whom made the NFL as well as Davis. After Davis, JWill was the only halfback with NFL talent Bielema was able to bring in with Small as a drafted FB. Had JWill gotten hurt as RB's are oft to do, we would have had no depth behind him. Noticeable dropoff in talent.

WR: Wright, Childs, Adams, and Hamilton all steal the show early on. Contrast that to Hatcher, Herndon, McKay, and Horton. First two years had 4 drafted WR's. Last 3 years had zero drafted receivers. Still some talent as 3 went on to make some NFL money during the actual season, so it wasn't like recruiting there fell off a cliff, like it did many other positions, but a very noticeable decline in talent levels to go from drafted to undrafted.

TE: Gragg vs Sprinkle is pretty closely a tie. One late round pick that first year's recruiting class. Only one other recruit the next four years even became a starter, though was a similar draft pick.

OL: Petrino did terrible at recruiting on the OL overall and heavily relied on Nutt's players along the OL. Heck, within one year, Bielema was starting 4/5 spots with his own players with Ragnow, Kirkland, Skipper, and Tretola. The only two recruits in 5 classes to go on to the NFL both came within those first two classes in Swanson and Bailey. In the next three classes, Brey Cook tops the list with Swanson next and Peacock honestly a stretch to even be there. None of whom made it to the NFL outside of pre-season camps to my knowledge. Another position group with a distinguished decline in recruiting talent.

DL: Basically the one area that Petrino actually improved on, and did so significantly. In the first group, we have Tank Wright being drafted, R. Thomas still in the NFL, and a host of good but not great DT's recruited. However, in the next three classes, there is Smith, Flowers, Philon, and Wise along with some solid depth players as well.

LB: This one is a bit tricky as Nelson and Rassner played LB for us in college but went on to play S in the NFL. However, comparing college to college, this one is pretty close with the 8/9 combined class having 2 players that went on to the NFL, with 10/11/12 having just the one (Otha Peters who transferred after Petrino left, but let's assume he stays if Petrino does) but 2 others who were still pretty solid in Highsmith and Turner. Overall, it's about a tie, each group averaging ~1 per class.

DB: This one also favors an increase in recruitment over time. Rasner and Nelson I won't double count here due to counting them at LB, but you still have Tremain Thomas who remains as one of the best safeties in a long time for Arkansas, but his shoulder injury kept him from making an NFL team. Other than that, you have Darius Winston who was a rare 5* recruit who played quite well, just not up to the 5* billing. In the later 3 years, you have a drafted DB in Mitchel, Gatson who made the NFL as an udfa, decent S's in Turner and Gaines, Collins who ended up playing quite well in coverage, but was too thin for the NFL, and I'm projecting Hines would have been a solid DB if he stayed.

ST: First grouping had Breeding and the second had Hocker. That basically becomes a tie given that both were top collegiate players at their respective positions, though obviously the edge to the later grouping given Hocker actually kicked in the NFL and was drafted.

So, the defense as a whole was probably improving over time (though with the loss of Bequette, Franklin, and Nelson after 2011, it was going to take a big hit in 2012 regardless of coach) but Petrino never showed a penchant for putting together a good defensive staff. So, IMO, that improvement would have led to a relatively minimal improvement. In contrast, offense, which was the team's bread and butter showed a stark decrease in talent recruited.

Because of that, I do not believe we were headed to a period of sustained 10+ win seasons. Particularly the OL play. People complain about Bielema's OL recruiting dipping in the back half of his time on the Hill, but Petrino's was worse. He did have some bad luck with certain players having medical problems or not qualifying, but at the end of the day, he didn't produce at the OL as much as he should have, and there's no indication that was going to improve.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Recover position(including TE)
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2018, 06:10:37 am »

I'm not taking things the way I wish, I was asking if my interpretation of your post was indeed what you were trying to communicate. Given your response here, I take it that I was at least pretty close and not wildly mis-interpreting what you were saying.

As luck would have it, Petrino brought in 5 recruiting classes and the last class of his has fully graduated, so we can at least somewhat objectively look at the what he did and how things were trending. Note that I'm not comparing rosters as they were at the time (i.e. comparing what was inherited in situ) but instead, am instead looking at the final products. Of course, there will be a bit of what-ifs and subjectivity given that many of the players played significantly under other coaching staffs. However, given Bielema's track record with the NFL before and after coming to Arkansas, I feel safe in assuming that nobody would have gone to the NFL that didn't had Petrino been coach.

So, to make a point of emphasis, I'll compare the '08 and '09 classes of Petrino's to the '10, '11, and '12 classes. I'm betting the '08 and '09 classes will greatly outshine the remaining 3 combined, but I haven't actually started tallying stuff yet, so let's find out. Also, ideally I'd split the below into columns, but it becomes hard to read for people who don't have bigger computer monitors so, I won't do that.

2008-2009:
Drafted NFL talent:
T. Wilson, R. Mallett
K. Davis
J. Adams, J. Wright, G. Childs, C. Hamilton
C. Gragg
T. Swanson,
T. Wright

Undrafted but made the NFL anyways:
D. Johnson, R. Wingo Jr,
A. Bailey
R. Thomas
J. Nelson, R. Rassner,

No NFL but still solid contributors:
B. Green
D. Hurd
L. Askew, A. Davis, Z. Stadther, D. Jones
T. Thomas, D. Winston
D. Breeding

Talent but didn't work out:
D. Curtis
______________________________________________

2010-2012:
Drafted NFL talent:
B. Allen
K. Small, J. Williams
J. Sprinkle
C. Smith, T. Flowers, D. Wise Jr, D. Philon
T. Mitchel
Z. Hocker

Undrafted but made the NFL anyways:
J. Herndon, K. Hatcher, M. McKay*
O. Peters*
G. Gatson

No NFL but still solid contributors:
K. Walker
J. Horton*
M. Smothers, B. Cook, J. Peacock
B. Jones, T. Johnson, J. Winston
A. Highsmith, AJ Turner*
A. Turner, R. Gaines, W. Hines*, J. Collins

Talent but didn't work out:
M. Wade,

* Here means I'm projecting a bit. Peters and McKay did go on to make NFL teams after transferring as UDFA's, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't have been able to do the same while here. I'm also projecting that Turner may have turned into a solid contributor had he stayed, though was never NFL material, and I'm also projecting Hines and Turner would have been solid players.

Lot of stuff posted right here, but what is it really saying? Let's break things down a bit more by position and it really spells things out, IMO.

QB: First year brought in Wilson and Mallett. Didn't bring in another NFL-level player until 4 classes later in Allen. Definite decrease in recruiting there in terms of frequency (averaging 1 per year in the first two and one every three years after (technically 2 per year in year 1 and 1 every 4 after, but there's year to year variability to best to try to break things up into a first half and a second half to smooth some of the year to year chance)).

RB: Knile Davis was an absolute stud of a player, and was complimented by the likes of Johnson, Green, and Wingo, two of whom made the NFL as well as Davis. After Davis, JWill was the only halfback with NFL talent Bielema was able to bring in with Small as a drafted FB. Had JWill gotten hurt as RB's are oft to do, we would have had no depth behind him. Noticeable dropoff in talent.

WR: Wright, Childs, Adams, and Hamilton all steal the show early on. Contrast that to Hatcher, Herndon, McKay, and Horton. First two years had 4 drafted WR's. Last 3 years had zero drafted receivers. Still some talent as 3 went on to make some NFL money during the actual season, so it wasn't like recruiting there fell off a cliff, like it did many other positions, but a very noticeable decline in talent levels to go from drafted to undrafted.

TE: Gragg vs Sprinkle is pretty closely a tie. One late round pick that first year's recruiting class. Only one other recruit the next four years even became a starter, though was a similar draft pick.

OL: Petrino did terrible at recruiting on the OL overall and heavily relied on Nutt's players along the OL. Heck, within one year, Bielema was starting 4/5 spots with his own players with Ragnow, Kirkland, Skipper, and Tretola. The only two recruits in 5 classes to go on to the NFL both came within those first two classes in Swanson and Bailey. In the next three classes, Brey Cook tops the list with Swanson next and Peacock honestly a stretch to even be there. None of whom made it to the NFL outside of pre-season camps to my knowledge. Another position group with a distinguished decline in recruiting talent.

DL: Basically the one area that Petrino actually improved on, and did so significantly. In the first group, we have Tank Wright being drafted, R. Thomas still in the NFL, and a host of good but not great DT's recruited. However, in the next three classes, there is Smith, Flowers, Philon, and Wise along with some solid depth players as well.

LB: This one is a bit tricky as Nelson and Rassner played LB for us in college but went on to play S in the NFL. However, comparing college to college, this one is pretty close with the 8/9 combined class having 2 players that went on to the NFL, with 10/11/12 having just the one (Otha Peters who transferred after Petrino left, but let's assume he stays if Petrino does) but 2 others who were still pretty solid in Highsmith and Turner. Overall, it's about a tie, each group averaging ~1 per class.

DB: This one also favors an increase in recruitment over time. Rasner and Nelson I won't double count here due to counting them at LB, but you still have Tremain Thomas who remains as one of the best safeties in a long time for Arkansas, but his shoulder injury kept him from making an NFL team. Other than that, you have Darius Winston who was a rare 5* recruit who played quite well, just not up to the 5* billing. In the later 3 years, you have a drafted DB in Mitchel, Gatson who made the NFL as an udfa, decent S's in Turner and Gaines, Collins who ended up playing quite well in coverage, but was too thin for the NFL, and I'm projecting Hines would have been a solid DB if he stayed.

ST: First grouping had Breeding and the second had Hocker. That basically becomes a tie given that both were top collegiate players at their respective positions, though obviously the edge to the later grouping given Hocker actually kicked in the NFL and was drafted.

So, the defense as a whole was probably improving over time (though with the loss of Bequette, Franklin, and Nelson after 2011, it was going to take a big hit in 2012 regardless of coach) but Petrino never showed a penchant for putting together a good defensive staff. So, IMO, that improvement would have led to a relatively minimal improvement. In contrast, offense, which was the team's bread and butter showed a stark decrease in talent recruited.

Because of that, I do not believe we were headed to a period of sustained 10+ win seasons. Particularly the OL play. People complain about Bielema's OL recruiting dipping in the back half of his time on the Hill, but Petrino's was worse. He did have some bad luck with certain players having medical problems or not qualifying, but at the end of the day, he didn't produce at the OL as much as he should have, and there's no indication that was going to improve.

Good stuff Benny, I think Petrino would have self-corrected most situations but that’s just my opinion.  Probably the first two mistakes CBB made that was my opinion at the time was starting Allen over Mitchell and the complete turnover of the O-line.  We can argue those things til we are blue in the face and not know the truth but I do like your ability to present your side. 
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