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Author Topic: When do you see Arkansas reaching/winning another major bowl game?  (Read 1825 times)

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bphi11ips

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When i say major, if you have College football IQ, you would know i am talking about the BCS Bowls. Anytime someone hears "Major Bowl games" more than often, the first thing that comes to mind are the BCS/NY6 bowl games.The Cotton bowl was stilll a pretty good bowl and im not saying it wasn't significant. But when i say major, i am clearly talking about the top tier elite bowl games, aka the BCS bowls. You are so in your feelings that you are going around in subjective circles not making any sense

Fact: Alabama and LSU played in the 2012 National title game
Fact: The Cotton Bowl was not BCS bowl in 2012, thus not a top tier bowl game
Fact: The Cotton Bowl was not a top tier bowl game from 95 to 2013.
Fact: Ole Miss was unranked 2 years prior and made the Cotton Bowl.
Fact: There has never been an unranked team who didn't win their conference that played in the Rose, Sugar, Orange, Fiesta (When it became a top tier bowl), and Cotton Bowl (when it's been a top tier bowl)
Fact: BCS bowls were more prestigous than any other bowl game, thus more major.

I can go on and on. It doesn't take that much College Football IQ to understand that BCS bowls were more prestigious and heralded than just any other bowl. From the tradition, to the payouts, to the coverage, to simply even having a group name specifically stating that you are a top tier bowl game. You literally had non-BCS bowl games (Like the Cotton Bowl then) and the BCS bowls. Hell look no further than 2010 when Hog fans were going crazy about making the Sugar Bowl because it was a BCS game, hince more major than just the Cotton Bowl.

Arkansas was ranked 7, but again, they were 3rd in the SEC West and 4th overall in the SEC. Most of the time, it's the first and 2nd place teams in the P5 conferences make the BCS bowl games. Rankings weren't always a sign that you were going to a BCS bowl. Some of the tie-ins were based objectively off who won their conference. otherwise 8-5 Wisconsin and #21 Louisville wouldn't have been in BCS bowls in 2012, but they were conference champs in AQ conferences. Arkansas wasn't even the 3rd best team in the SEC. Georgia was based off conference record. But go back a year in 2010, Arkansas had the 2nd best record in the SEC, hince why they made the Sugar Bowl.

Your definition of "major" is more subjective than anything else because you don't have any facts to back up your statement. Sure I feel Arkansas should have been in a BCS bowl because they were ranked 7 and only lost to title game teams. But that doesn't refute the fact that they played in bowl game that was not top tier like the BCS bowl games. In fact, you haven't refuted any of the facts i've presented. Just irrational claims that my post is subjective despite all the facts laid out.

When it's said and done, the 2012 Cotton Bowl was NOT a Top Tier bowl game, no matter what your subjective opinion and feelings are. That's the main point.

You're the one who used "major" to describe the bowl game in your question.  Maybe you lack the personal experience to understand RME's opinion.

"Major bowl" was a term that had an objectively defined meaning for decades, but the term became subjective in the early 90's with the advent of attempts by consortia of bowl games to crown an objective national champion.  First came the Bowl Coalition in 1992, of which the Cotton Bowl was a part.  The Coalition was comprised of the Cotton, Orange, Fiesta and Sugar.  The Bowl Alliance replaced the Coalition in 1995, and the Cotton dropped out.  The BCS replaced the Alliance in 1998, and the Rose was added to the mix.  In 2006, the BCS created a separate game as the national championship.  Since 2014, we've had the playoffs.  The Cotton and the Peach Bowls joined the Orange, Sugar, Rose and Fiesta in the playoff structure, so now one could argue we have six "major bowls", but during years in which a bowl game is not involved in the playoff mix, one could argue it is not "major" under your definition.

"Major bowl" was universally understood to mean the Rose, Orange, Sugar and Cotton bowls during the post-WWII period until the late 1980's.  The Fiesta Bowl, created in 1968 by the WAC because its teams were never invited to the "majors", pushed and pushed until, in 1986, Penn State and Miami, both independents at the time and without major bowl tie-ins, agreed to play in the Fiesta for the national championship.  From that point forward, the Fiesta was generally considered to be a fifth "major". The Peach was certainly never considered a major until it was added for the playoffs, most likely because it is located in Atlanta, and, comparatively speaking, it has historic significance.

Whether the Cotton was a "major" bowl in 2012 depends upon your perspective.

There were 35 bowl games in 2012.  BCS bowls were the Sugar, Rose, Orange and Fiesta.  The payout for each bowl was $17 million.  The BCS NC was played in Miami, and the payout was $18 million.  The Cotton Bowl's payout was $3.6 million, third among the non-BCS bowls behind the Capital One (Citrus; $4.5 million) and Chick-Fil-A (Peach; $3.9 million).

The 2012 Cotton was certainly BCS worthy in terms of the matchup.  Arkansas was the number 6 team in the BCS entering the game, and Kansas State was 8.  It was also played in the relatively new AT&T stadium, which was widely regarded at the time as the best venue in football. 

Where do you draw the line between "major" and the rest in 2012?  The answer can only be arrived at subjectively, because there was no universal understanding concerning the definition of "major bowl" in 2012.  The debate raged on Hogville that year, though.  Opinions on the Cotton here ranged from "crap bowl" to "major".

At the end of the day, the 2012 Cotton Bowl could easily be justified as a "major bowl".  Based upon your analysis, you really should change the topic to "When Do You See Arkansas Reaching and Winning a Playoff Game", because that obviously is the only "bowl game" you consider to be "major".       

hogsanity

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Exactly.

Hey Einstein, the fact is that Kansas State and Arkansas were ranked higher in the BCS rankings than teams playing in 2 BCS bowls that year. That speaks more volumes about the stupid BCS system than anything else because based on rankings, not conference winners and tie-ins, Arkansas and Kansas State should've been in a BCS bowl.

Your definition of BCS as "major bowls" simply has to do with who won their conference and who had tie-ins. If Alabama and LSU both made the BCS National Championship at #1 and #2, Arkansas could still be #3 and miss a BCS bowl due to conference restrictions, and that's exactly why Arkansas was kept out that year. Anyone with a college football IQ would know that. This isn't hard to understand.

That's a fact, my man. And you throwing around the ol' "IQ" argument and still not understanding what constitutes as a fact is pretty funny.

I'll ask for the third time, Benjamin: What's your point here? What are you trying to get at? That we've sucked recently? As if that isn't a given.

Arkansas has played in many "major" bowls, and all but one was before the BCS era. BAck when the 4 big boys were the cotton/rose/sugar/orange. Hogs played in several Cotton Bowls while in the SWC, 2 or 3 Sugar Bowls, and 2 Orange Bowls. In the BCS era they played in one that most people consider "major" and that was the Sugar bowl.

Now, as pointed out, some of the stupid BCS agreements led to teams that were higher ranked not making any of the bcs games ( not allowing 3 teams from on league into bcs games being the biggest one ) which resulted in some very good matchups in bowls that were not considered "major" at the time. The Cotton Bowl after the 2011 season is a prime example of that.

The point that most people that bring up this subject are trying to make is that BP did something extra super special by going to the Sugar Bowl, but history points out that Hatfield, Holtz, and JFB all took teams to " major " bowls.

As for when will they make another one....well, when they have a DEFENSE capable of stopping teams like Bama/LSU/A&M enough to beat them.

 
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RyanMallettsEgo

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At the end of the day, the 2012 Cotton Bowl could easily be justified as a "major bowl".  Based upon your analysis, you really should change the topic to "When Do You See Arkansas Reaching and Winning a Playoff Game", because that obviously is the only "bowl game" you consider to be "major".     

Exactly.

Had Ben identified BCS bowls as his only definition of a "major bowl" in his original post, a lot of this would've been cleared up. Rather, he left the term "major" open to interpretation and here we are. And you're 100% correct. By his apparent definition, only a playoff game would be considered "major" moving forward.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Arkansas has played in many "major" bowls, and all but one was before the BCS era. BAck when the 4 big boys were the cotton/rose/sugar/orange. Hogs played in several Cotton Bowls while in the SWC, 2 or 3 Sugar Bowls, and 2 Orange Bowls. In the BCS era they played in one that most people consider "major" and that was the Sugar bowl.

Now, as pointed out, some of the stupid BCS agreements led to teams that were higher ranked not making any of the bcs games ( not allowing 3 teams from on league into bcs games being the biggest one ) which resulted in some very good matchups in bowls that were not considered "major" at the time. The Cotton Bowl after the 2011 season is a prime example of that.

The point that most people that bring up this subject are trying to make is that BP did something extra super special by going to the Sugar Bowl, but history points out that Hatfield, Holtz, and JFB all took teams to " major " bowls.

As for when will they make another one....well, when they have a DEFENSE capable of stopping teams like Bama/LSU/A&M enough to beat them.

Exactly. That's pretty much the premise of my argument as to why that Cotton Bowl was "major."
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Pig in the Pokey

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you win, @RyanMallettsEgo

LZH

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you win, @RyanMallettsEgo

I came in second!

bphi11ips

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A better question might be when you see Arkansas finishing in the Top 10 again. 2011 is the only time it’s happened in the last 35 years.
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Ben

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Exactly.

Hey Einstein, the fact is that Kansas State and Arkansas were ranked higher in the BCS rankings than teams playing in 2 BCS bowls that year. That speaks more volumes about the stupid BCS system than anything else because based on rankings, not conference winners and tie-ins, Arkansas and Kansas State should've been in a BCS bowl.

Your definition of BCS as "major bowls" simply has to do with who won their conference and who had tie-ins. If Alabama and LSU both made the BCS National Championship at #1 and #2, Arkansas could still be #3 and miss a BCS bowl due to conference restrictions, and that's exactly why Arkansas was kept out that year. Anyone with a college football IQ would know that. This isn't hard to understand.

That's a fact, my man. And you throwing around the ol' "IQ" argument and still not understanding what constitutes as a fact is pretty funny.

I'll ask for the third time, Benjamin: What's your point here? What are you trying to get at? That we've sucked recently? As if that isn't a given.
You're the one who used "major" to describe the bowl game in your question.  Maybe you lack the personal experience to understand RME's opinion.

"Major bowl" was a term that had an objectively defined meaning for decades, but the term became subjective in the early 90's with the advent of attempts by consortia of bowl games to crown an objective national champion.  First came the Bowl Coalition in 1992, of which the Cotton Bowl was a part.  The Coalition was comprised of the Cotton, Orange, Fiesta and Sugar.  The Bowl Alliance replaced the Coalition in 1995, and the Cotton dropped out.  The BCS replaced the Alliance in 1998, and the Rose was added to the mix.  In 2006, the BCS created a separate game as the national championship.  Since 2014, we've had the playoffs.  The Cotton and the Peach Bowls joined the Orange, Sugar, Rose and Fiesta in the playoff structure, so now one could argue we have six "major bowls", but during years in which a bowl game is not involved in the playoff mix, one could argue it is not "major" under your definition.

"Major bowl" was universally understood to mean the Rose, Orange, Sugar and Cotton bowls during the post-WWII period until the late 1980's.  The Fiesta Bowl, created in 1968 by the WAC because its teams were never invited to the "majors", pushed and pushed until, in 1986, Penn State and Miami, both independents at the time and without major bowl tie-ins, agreed to play in the Fiesta for the national championship.  From that point forward, the Fiesta was generally considered to be a fifth "major". The Peach was certainly never considered a major until it was added for the playoffs, most likely because it is located in Atlanta, and, comparatively speaking, it has historic significance.

Whether the Cotton was a "major" bowl in 2012 depends upon your perspective.

There were 35 bowl games in 2012.  BCS bowls were the Sugar, Rose, Orange and Fiesta.  The payout for each bowl was $17 million.  The BCS NC was played in Miami, and the payout was $18 million.  The Cotton Bowl's payout was $3.6 million, third among the non-BCS bowls behind the Capital One (Citrus; $4.5 million) and Chick-Fil-A (Peach; $3.9 million).

The 2012 Cotton was certainly BCS worthy in terms of the matchup.  Arkansas was the number 6 team in the BCS entering the game, and Kansas State was 8.  It was also played in the relatively new AT&T stadium, which was widely regarded at the time as the best venue in football. 

Where do you draw the line between "major" and the rest in 2012?  The answer can only be arrived at subjectively, because there was no universal understanding concerning the definition of "major bowl" in 2012.  The debate raged on Hogville that year, though.  Opinions on the Cotton here ranged from "crap bowl" to "major".

At the end of the day, the 2012 Cotton Bowl could easily be justified as a "major bowl".  Based upon your analysis, you really should change the topic to "When Do You See Arkansas Reaching and Winning a Playoff Game", because that obviously is the only "bowl game" you consider to be "major".       

Its no point going on anymore. At this point you either get it, or you go around in subjective circles with no facts to back your claims like you are doing now. Makes you look delusional for the sake of boosting Arkansas.

Were BCS bowls considered more major than non-bcs bowls from 98-13, yes or no? Yes it was
Was the Cotton bowl a BCS bowl in 2012, yes or no? No it wasn't

It's that simple. This has nothing to do with the subjective opinion that Arkansas or Kstate should have been in a BCS bowl based on their rankings or how screwed up  you think the BCS and their system is. I personally agree that Arkansas should have been in a BCS bowl game that season since they only lost to title teams, which is what i just said. I also agree the BCS system was flawed. BUT unlike you, i am able to put my subjective thought to the side and be factual on the matter and deal with what was what. The simple fact is the Cotton Bowl WAS NOT an elite bowl like the BCS bowls, thus Arkansas did NOT play in a elite tier bowl game like they did in 2010. and your opinion of who "should" have been a bcs bowl, how messed up the bcs system was, and opinion on my comments doesn't refute any of that, and you still don't see or understand that. But if you want to be in denial then go ahead.

It's short, sweet, and simple. We have NY6 bowls now, so the Cotton and Peach bowl would be considered elite bowl games now along with the other 4. But prior to that, the only elite bowl games were Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, and Orange from 98 to 2013. And ive already answered that. My point is Arkansas hasn't played in a major bowl game since 2010 and haven't won one since the 1978 Orange Bowl vs Oklahoma. So that goes back to my question asked orginally. When do you see Arkansas winning/reaching another major bowl game? and to dumb it down for you, a NY6 bowl


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Ben

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“In the minds of many fans, the Fiesta replaced the Cotton as a major bowl. Despite this, the Cotton Bowl Classic still retained enough prestige that it was included as one of the top bowls in the Bowl Coalition when it was formed in 1992. However, in 1995, the new Bowl Alliance (the predecessor of the BCS) chose to include the Fiesta over the Cotton in its rotation…… The Cotton Bowl Classic returned to "major" bowl status in the 2014 season in conjunction with the first year of the new College Football Playoff.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Bowl_Classic

Next.
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hogcards

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“In the minds of many fans, the Fiesta replaced the Cotton as a major bowl. Despite this, the Cotton Bowl Classic still retained enough prestige that it was included as one of the top bowls in the Bowl Coalition when it was formed in 1992. However, in 1995, the new Bowl Alliance (the predecessor of the BCS) chose to include the Fiesta over the Cotton in its rotation…… The Cotton Bowl Classic returned to "major" bowl status in the 2014 season in conjunction with the first year of the new College Football Playoff.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Bowl_Classic

Next.

Good read

As of right now the Fiesta seems to be a bowl game that should be relegated to mid tier status.  Imo, the Cotton has always been the better venue. 
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hawganatic

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I honestly don't care what is defined as a "major bowl."  I get up more for the match up than the name that's attached to the game.  I considered the Belk Bowl a "major bowl" a couple of years ago because of who were playing, and it was one of the better match ups for the bowl season.

2011 Cotton Bowl our game was listed as one of the top 5 match ups.  Have no idea what the numbers were, but I suspect it was also one of the most watched bowl games that year, whether the Cotton was considered major or not.

The name attached to the bowl is irrelevant.  People are going to tune in to which games they think are going to be good games.  Higher viewership is far more important.
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liljo


I see Arkansas winning a major bowl in January, 2019. Ah, yes, I can see it now...

And, peace in the Middle East. The stock market hitting 35K. The United States of America uniting. Me winning the lotto.

Anything else you need to know, just shoot me a PM, or create another thread.

Have a good summer, Ben. It's so awesome knowing you're a Razorback fan!
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bphi11ips

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“In the minds of many fans, the Fiesta replaced the Cotton as a major bowl. Despite this, the Cotton Bowl Classic still retained enough prestige that it was included as one of the top bowls in the Bowl Coalition when it was formed in 1992. However, in 1995, the new Bowl Alliance (the predecessor of the BCS) chose to include the Fiesta over the Cotton in its rotation…… The Cotton Bowl Classic returned to "major" bowl status in the 2014 season in conjunction with the first year of the new College Football Playoff.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Bowl_Classic

Next.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Who_writes_Wikipedia%3F

Anyone can insert an opinion on Wiki.

Don’t get saucy with me, Bernaise.
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liljo


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Who_writes_Wikipedia%3F

Anyone can insert an opinion on Wiki.

Don’t get saucy with me, Bernaise.

Yeah, I love the way..."Ben"...used a Wikipedia article like it was just flat-out undeniable proof of his..."point."

What I'd REALLY like to know, is who he really roots for...I'm guessing he's an Ole Miss fan. It's just a guess. I can see the Hogs winning a Major Bowl more clearly than I can see Ben being a Hog fan, though.
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Ben

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Who_writes_Wikipedia%3F

Anyone can insert an opinion on Wiki.

Don’t get saucy with me, Bernaise.
Where in those quotes do you see an opinion though? But ok.

http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4809942
Do you see "Cotton Bowl" from 95 on?

From 1995 article from NY Times: "Each participating team will recieve 8.5million, a record for Bowl games. That $17million is a part of the pool of $50.4 million assembled by the alliance from three major bowls, Fiesta, Orange and Sugar"
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/27/sports/college-football-95-bowl-alliance-one-more-time-trying-insure-no-1-vs-no-2.html

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Busta_Nutt


I thought I'd see Halley's Comet before I saw bphi11 and RMEgo playing for the same team. This is wild. Now if we could only get Lanny to reinstate steveaustin.

RyanMallettsEgo

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Its no point going on anymore. At this point you either get it, or you go around in subjective circles with no facts to back your claims like you are doing now. Makes you look delusional for the sake of boosting Arkansas.

Were BCS bowls considered more major than non-bcs bowls from 98-13, yes or no? Yes it was
Was the Cotton bowl a BCS bowl in 2012, yes or no? No it wasn't

It's that simple. This has nothing to do with the subjective opinion that Arkansas or Kstate should have been in a BCS bowl based on their rankings or how screwed up  you think the BCS and their system is. I personally agree that Arkansas should have been in a BCS bowl game that season since they only lost to title teams, which is what i just said. I also agree the BCS system was flawed. BUT unlike you, i am able to put my subjective thought to the side and be factual on the matter and deal with what was what. The simple fact is the Cotton Bowl WAS NOT an elite bowl like the BCS bowls, thus Arkansas did NOT play in a elite tier bowl game like they did in 2010. and your opinion of who "should" have been a bcs bowl, how messed up the bcs system was, and opinion on my comments doesn't refute any of that, and you still don't see or understand that. But if you want to be in denial then go ahead.

It's short, sweet, and simple. We have NY6 bowls now, so the Cotton and Peach bowl would be considered elite bowl games now along with the other 4. But prior to that, the only elite bowl games were Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, and Orange from 98 to 2013. And ive already answered that. My point is Arkansas hasn't played in a major bowl game since 2010 and haven't won one since the 1978 Orange Bowl vs Oklahoma. So that goes back to my question asked orginally. When do you see Arkansas winning/reaching another major bowl game? and to dumb it down for you, a NY6 bowl

I see Arkansas reaching another "major" bowl game when they win enough games and other teams lose enough games to qualify Arkansas for a "major" bowl game.
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bphi11ips

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I thought I'd see Halley's Comet before I saw bphi11 and RMEgo playing for the same team. This is wild. Now if we could only get Lanny to reinstate steveaustin.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

RME is okay and I agree with him on a lot of things. Enough said.

Busta_Nutt


Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

RME is okay and I agree with him on a lot of things. Enough said.

I'm sure you just made his week. One day you and I will be playing for the same team, too. It'll take a lot of work, an attitude adjustment, and a new frame of mind on your part, but one day I'll welcome you aboard the pirate ship (again). One day, bphi11, one day...
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