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Author Topic: Our weaknesses exposed fully  (Read 1188 times)

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flippinhogmana

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Our weaknesses exposed fully
« on: December 23, 2017, 01:35:20 am »

As LBBF correctly pointed out ALL our weaknesses were fully exposed in the ASU game.  After a couple days of reflection I have finally reached a point of equilibrium where I can expound of several points.  I wanted to wait a little time before commenting because one of them mildly disturbed me.  Did the score disturb me so much?  Did my high expectations being dashed so low disturb me so much?  Neither to each question.  I will tell you at the end of the piece what kinda irritated me.

As for as the weaknesses, everybody on the board knows our principal weakness - lack of height, and lack of experience at the four and five (or five if our three tallest players continue to man just that one position).   The only way known to coaching - whether it is LBBF or me doing it or MN - to negate a weakness is to find a strength of your's that will keep the opposition from being able to exploit your weakness.  We try to negate our lack of height and experience at the five (one 6-1 sophomore, one 6-1 and a 6-3 freshman) by (1) packing in the zone, (2) sending all five players to the boards and (3) overplaying the interior passing lanes especially.  That is what we do on defense, we also try to trade threes for the twos they score on offense.

All our games up to this point have been to perfect those techniques.  We got pretty proficient at it.  However, it doesn't appear that we have spent much time on addressing a full court press by a team that is bigger and at least as athletic as us.  So far we have relied on MM and JM to beat the press.  But we hadn't seen a press like ASU's up to that game.   

But take heart.  There is nothing they threw at us that we cannot compensate for.  We never really had a chance to employ our game plan.  Even those times when we got to the half-court we were rushed and didn't execute.
Its as simple as that.  We got rattled to be sure, but I will guarantee you that MN will get them settled down, believing in themselves again and prepared to face that sort of challenge in the future.  It wont make us any taller, but we wont have the turnovers (that in part gave them twenty more shots than us) - they also had a lot of offensive rebounds, that is harder to fix. To fix that it will take Macy Weaver getting more experienced and better, and another big body that is skilled as well.  We wont be able to fix all that this year, not against the better teams.  The downside, just as LBBF said, is that the better teams will more often than not defeat our scheme because well they are just more physically talented than us.

Now as to what irritated me.  Because I didn't have the video feed - I had the live stat feed up the whole game.  I never saw a single time that the ASU coach had less than three starters in the game from the opening tip to the time the horn sounded.  Up by fifty midway through the fourth quarter - he still had four starters in.  You can look at the player participation (minutes) in the box and see that he never emptied his bench.  In the third period when we had all subs in (Swinson, RnB, Weaver, Stout and Spangler) he he had in either three or four starters.  Even the 6-5 freshman that had a career night the game before against Idaho (19 points) played less minutes against us than against them.  Some of their players didn't even play and another played only four minutes.  That wasnt very sporting of their coach, and as far as I am concerned, it wasnt doing it the right way.

It was almost as if he had a personal grudge or something.  I have tried to give him some benefit of the doubt as to playing for RPI but I dont think so.  I want this one back some time in the future. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 01:13:08 pm by flippinhogmana »
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2017, 07:19:21 pm »

The thing about sending five people to the boards is that it leaves you open to being exploited in two ways (even if you aren't snafu-ed by a full court press).  If the opposing team can pretty much handle the boards with a dominant inside player and a couple of wings to seal her off, it leaves two guards that they can leak out and release to either drive the ball on a kick out or maybe if one of them is a good three shooter that can set up for a wide open three. 

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of weaknesses that we expose ourselves to by sending everybody to the boards to compensate for our lack of height.  It just generally makes it harder to get back and set up on defense yourself.  But having the speed of Monk and the agility of Williams and Thomas, and ever increasing the long arms and shot blocking ability of Weaver can make up for it some, but not entirely.  As LBBF stated correctly, it is not likely to be the last time we will be exposed.  But I still like our fire and our chances a lot of the time.
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psycHOGlogist

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2017, 10:00:52 pm »

ASUís coach, Charlie Turner Thorne, is a woman. Otherwise, I donít really disagree with anything you said.

CMN and CCTT know each other ó maybe CMN asked her not to go easy on us? Just grasping here, but I donít think that she and Mike are unfriendly.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2017, 10:53:27 pm »

like I said, I could never pick up the broadcast (so I never saw their coach) , but like I said also, if I have been down the court from her on the other bench - I dont think I would have treated her young women like that.  I wouldn't have wanted my young women to have learned such a lesson.  And if I had, what exactly would have I teaching my own team?  Maybe its just me - but it was in my circles it was a given - that if you look down and see the other team sending in the end of his bench that you for sure do the same thing.  You dont rub young women's nose in the fact that you are better than them on a particular night - if for no other reason than some night you might not be. 
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2017, 01:45:35 am »

One thing about it, we will discover how much pride and fight eleven young ladies have in them because every team with similar athletes and skills will see the ASU tape, even if we burn it.  All of them will try to replicate that game plan on us. 

First we will have to beat the press.  Hardly any teams can beat a full court zone press with a dribbler.  You have to pass over the top of it into its vacant, vulnerable spots - every press has it weaknesses too, but you have to attack it, not be intimidated by it. 

Then you cant stop there.  In order to really defeat a press you have to score on it enough to make them realize the press is hurting them.  You beat a press by a couple of passes.  After you get past three of defenders with the pass you have to get a two on one break on the post - for at least a short jumper, or a three.  Get their post defender in foul trouble will hurt the press too.  Do any of that enough and you will run most teams out of it pretty quick. 
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psycHOGlogist

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2017, 08:37:52 pm »

The Auburn game has troubled me all year. I think that they are one of the few teams in conference that we can hang with, talent-wise, but their press is going to be difficult for us. I have that game circled as a possible conference W, but itís hard to see that if we canít bring the ball up the court.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2017, 10:11:00 pm »

The Auburn game has troubled me all year. I think that they are one of the few teams in conference that we can hang with, talent-wise, but their press is going to be difficult for us. I have that game circled as a possible conference W, but itís hard to see that if we canít bring the ball up the court.

On some of my teams I actually looked forward to being pressed.  If you have a player who is good at throwing the ball in, a player good at receiving that pass, making a decision and hitting one of two players over the zone who are good drivers or good shots, you can beat most teams as long as they press you.  It sounds simple, but in some situations you can actually beat some teams easier if they press you than you can beat them in the half court match-up.  We certainly didn't look like in Tempe, but I am optimistic that can be corrected.  Grambliing got beat by Oregon by 44 by the way.  One game at a time from this time on (but we have to get ready for the press because we will surely see it again)>
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2017, 08:01:40 am »

I watched the game and I do not know where the press became our weakness.  Sure they pressed but I do not remember us turning it over on the press.  The problem was once we got over half court, they overplayed us and our offense could not react to it.  I do not have time to watch the game again right now, but that is what I recall.
I also did not think that their coach was overusing her regulars.  All ten of her players played and 9 were in double minutes.  We had three players in single minutes.  She substituted 3 players 3-4 minutes into the game.  Eight of her 10 players had 18 - 28 minutes.  Our five subs went into the game 2-3 minutes into the second half when the starters made a fall and did not show team support by huddling and touching each other - a big no no with our new coach.  He had it at that point.  Our starters played most of the fourth quarter which seemed to be the complaint about the other coach.
My final comment is that coach does not believe in pressing so he may not practice much against it.  His position is that a press will not work against great teams which is what he wants to be - a team in the top 10.  He has a process that he is following to make us winners.  Hang on, it will come when we get more talent which is coming.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2017, 10:07:33 am »

I watched the game and I do not know where the press became our weakness.  Sure they pressed but I do not remember us turning it over on the press.  The problem was once we got over half court, they overplayed us and our offense could not react to it.  I do not have time to watch the game again right now, but that is what I recall.
I also did not think that their coach was overusing her regulars.  All ten of her players played and 9 were in double minutes.  We had three players in single minutes.  She substituted 3 players 3-4 minutes into the game.  Eight of her 10 players had 18 - 28 minutes.  Our five subs went into the game 2-3 minutes into the second half when the starters made a fall and did not show team support by huddling and touching each other - a big no no with our new coach.  He had it at that point.  Our starters played most of the fourth quarter which seemed to be the complaint about the other coach.
My final comment is that coach does not believe in pressing so he may not practice much against it.  His position is that a press will not work against great teams which is what he wants to be - a team in the top 10.  He has a process that he is following to make us winners.  Hang on, it will come when we get more talent which is coming.

I was just going by the stat sheet - it can obviously leave something to be desired.  As far as pressing, I never liked to use it much either, but since others did, you have to practice against it.  I am still optimistic that we can be decent this year.  I dont expect greatness, we are just too vertically challenged this year.  I completely approve by the way of his approach to coaching, but long term and his greater philosophy of teaching the "right way".   You have to be good in all phases of the game, bringing the ball up, half court, etc.  I will perfectly willing to hang on.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2017, 10:46:30 am »

But I will say this - unless my impression is incorrect - MN has at least a couple of traits that I use as well.  He is aggressive, but he is also protective of his players, especially new ones (young ones, freshmen).  I hope he is not too protective of Macy Weaver.  I think in some ways she is the key to this team, this year.

Somebody who saw the game, tell me how she got that technical.  I think she might have some fight in her.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2017, 11:25:36 am »

Perhaps some bad blood from MNís pac 12 days?
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jackflash

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 11:32:50 am »

Mike has not had enough time to correct everything , but he will get done.
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logic

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 10:38:38 pm »

Very few expected us to be great this year.  However, already they have greatly exceeded my expectations.  Next year, I believe we will be considerably improved.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 11:37:38 pm »

Very few expected us to be great this year.  However, already they have greatly exceeded my expectations.  Next year, I believe we will be considerably improved.

Mike has not had enough time to correct everything , but he will get done

I think you will find this board to be very supportive not only of the Razorback Women's basketball team, but of MN and the way he not only coaching this team, but teaching them and leading them.  There was one individual who seemed to have a contrarian view, but the fact is that from top to bottom not only do we like what we see but we know full well what Mike Neighbors inherited, and what he didn't, thus we know his limitations.

As far as the last game, we got caught off balance and ill prepared in several ways besides being physically challenged.  Our leaders (Cosper, Monk and Mason) haven't been bell cow leaders that long.  In fact this is really the first year any of them have had a leadership role.  But even from a leadership role I predict they will all grow from this.  I think we will still do better than anticipated.  I may be setting myself up for a disappointment, but I am resilient and I can handle it if it comes.  I choose to believe anyway.  I choose to believe even though every team in the conference is bigger than us.  But then in my part of the world it is known to be said, 'its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog that matters most".

There will be times when the size of the dog in the fight, and the fight in them is bigger than us on all counts.  I will still enthusiastically support the team and the coach and how he is doing things when that occurs.
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 06:57:42 am »

AMEN.  Another point that I would like to make is not only has he learned from a great bunch of coaches how to be a coach and a winner, the one thing that we have been missing since Gary Blair left is a coach who goes out into the community to try and build the fan base.  MN has made it clear that he will go anywhere to meet fans - no matter how many 2 or 200.  I have seen this first hand.  It will take a lot of effort but he will get it done.
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colemjh

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2017, 08:27:55 am »

I'm a fan of his. I think he might end up as one of the best coaches we have, men or women. I might be bad luck because I was home and made a special effort to watch the Arizona State game. I did not watch past the first half.

Long term how good can we be?

Thanks.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2017, 02:22:07 pm »

AMEN.  Another point that I would like to make is not only has he learned from a great bunch of coaches how to be a coach and a winner, the one thing that we have been missing since Gary Blair left is a coach who goes out into the community to try and build the fan base.  MN has made it clear that he will go anywhere to meet fans - no matter how many 2 or 200.  I have seen this first hand.  It will take a lot of effort but he will get it done.

Well, that IS doing it the right way isn't it!  I am glad you added that.  I think that is just who he is.

You know coach, some people come to your community and take your job.  They might do you a good job, even a great job, but its still just a job to them.  Then every now and then someone takes your job and brings their life to your community, if you catch the difference.  Mike has shown nothing but respect since even before he got here.  He even wouldn't have taken this job if his daughter wouldn't have approved - she was here first and he didn't want to mess up her life - that's respect.

Devin Cosper stayed she said, because he told her he wanted her, she said she just wanted to be wanted.  Thats respect.  I believe every girl on that team feels it and a lot of people in the stands as you indicated.  How can you not support that? 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:35:48 pm by flippinhogmana »
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 07:16:57 am »

I just hope we do not get too overly optimistic for at least this year.  I think we will be a lot better next year in spite of loosing Devin.  Remember we have two players who will also benefit from a year with this coach that are not playing.  They both will play significant minutes next year.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 09:40:30 am »

I just hope we do not get too overly optimistic for at least this year.  I think we will be a lot better next year in spite of loosing Devin.  Remember we have two players who will also benefit from a year with this coach that are not playing.  They both will play significant minutes next year.

agreed.  With Dungee filling Cosper's slot, we will be slightly bigger in a four guard rotation, and we will have four high scoring guards, instead of three.  Swinson, Thomas, Williams and Weaver will be better too (as well as Zimmer, Stout, and Spangler). 
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nwahogfan1

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 09:46:02 am »

Mike has not had enough time to correct everything , but he will get done

I think you will find this board to be very supportive not only of the Razorback Women's basketball team, but of MN and the way he not only coaching this team, but teaching them and leading them.  There was one individual who seemed to have a contrarian view, but the fact is that from top to bottom not only do we like what we see but we know full well what Mike Neighbors inherited, and what he didn't, thus we know his limitations.

As far as the last game, we got caught off balance and ill prepared in several ways besides being physically challenged.  Our leaders (Cosper, Monk and Mason) haven't been bell cow leaders that long.  In fact this is really the first year any of them have had a leadership role.  But even from a leadership role I predict they will all grow from this.  I think we will still do better than anticipated.  I may be setting myself up for a disappointment, but I am resilient and I can handle it if it comes.  I choose to believe anyway.  I choose to believe even though every team in the conference is bigger than us.  But then in my part of the world it is known to be said, 'its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog that matters most".

There will be times when the size of the dog in the fight, and the fight in them is bigger than us on all counts.  I will still enthusiastically support the team and the coach and how he is doing things when that occurs.


So Flippin are you still sticking to us winning more than 6 games in the SEC?    ASU game was ugly.  I know sometimes a team will give up and not play with heart or energy and that is what I saw.  Can they get hit in the mouth and come back swinging?  I want to see that.  Can Mike put the bull dog mentality in them?  I am a big believer that the Bull Dog analogy in a player is God given and recruited and not developed but we will see.  I know the coach can instill some of his fighter mentality into a player but that it is only good for a game or two.  Mostly it is in a player or it is not.  But I also think it can be in a player but for some reason it can be lost for a  game or two so maybe the ASU game was one of those games.  We will see.  SEC is tough and if we do not have that toughness it will be a long and not very much fun to watch..  Even though many teams will be bigger than us like Ms St or S. Carolina I want to see if we will fight on the boards and not give up.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 01:51:30 pm »

I am not sure I ever mentioned how many games in conference we would win, but yeah I think we can win more than six.  The operative word is can.  I wouldnt be too totally surprised to see us win eight.   to go eight and eight this year would be huge.
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 04:05:46 pm »

I am not sure I ever mentioned how many games in conference we would win, but yeah I think we can win more than six.  The operative word is can.  I wouldnt be too totally surprised to see us win eight.   to go eight and eight this year would be huge.

  Eight wins would be a miracle!  As I said before, I am sure of four, but am hoping we can get two more for our six needed to be post season eligible.  We got to win the next two in order to accomplish that.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 05:17:23 pm »

  Eight wins would be a miracle!  As I said before, I am sure of four, but am hoping we can get two more for our six needed to be post season eligible.  We got to win the next two in order to accomplish that.

LBBF, I dont disagree with your logical and professional analysis where I think you called for six wins.  Six wins would be a huge improvement and a touch optimistic in itself.  Even matching last years wins After losing our two six three seniors and leading scorer would actually be about all we SHOULD expect. 

Yes, eight wins would be a miracle but then I believe in them too!  In some ways I think Mike has just a touch of a river boat gambler in him (as I do, not too much just a touch),   What do we have to lose to believe and to believe big.  I'm not betting any money of it.  As long as the girls just concentrate on playing every game one game at a time, and the fans dream big and dont put it off on them, then our irrational enthusiasm wont hurt them any.  Let it all hang out and let the rough side drag (I never did understand that but it  sounds good).
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psycHOGlogist

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 06:02:29 pm »

Honestly, I will be THRILLED with four SEC wins.
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2017, 06:50:54 am »

Flippin, well I remember the year that TC won 10 games with about six in a row.  I also remember the year that JD beat Tennessee and Texas A&M - in fact only 2 years ago - so anything is possible as you say.  Believe Believe Believe!
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BWS

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2017, 08:42:49 am »

Looking at the conference schedule, I can only see maybe 4-5 wins. The good news is that is 4-5 more than we would have had if JD was still the coach.
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2017, 09:43:26 am »

Looking at the conference schedule, I can only see maybe 4-5 wins. The good news is that is 4-5 more than we would have had if JD was still the coach.
I am with you.  We just need to be lucky on one or two to get to six and a 15-14 record prior to conference tournament to make us post season eligible.  We need to keep playing this year as long as possible.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2017, 01:15:36 pm »

Looking at the conference schedule, I can only see maybe 4-5 wins. The good news is that is 4-5 more than we would have had if JD was still the coach.

If all I looked at was the conference schedule's and rosters, I am not sure I would put us down for more than two if that. 
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BWS

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2017, 03:29:17 pm »

There's probably 5-6 teams in the conference that we will lose to because they have better talent. I think the rest of the conference is pretty balanced, but they all have more size than we do. The difference between last year is we have better chemistry. The players like their coach and that might result in surprising a few teams. Realistically, Ole Miss, Alabama, Florida, LSU and Vanderbilt look winnable.
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psycHOGlogist

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2017, 04:13:15 pm »

Auburn is more winnable than LSU, imo.
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flippinhogmana

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Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2017, 05:08:36 pm »

I dont disagree with anything that has been said.  But I wouldn't discount the fact that we can beat all but a few of the teams when we are on.  When we are off, anybody can beat us.  But lets hope we arent off too often.
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LadybackBBFan

Re: Our weaknesses exposed fully
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2017, 08:11:44 pm »

I totally agree with the comments about teams we can beat and that anybody can beat us when we are off.  Missouri, Texas A&M, Mississippi State, Tennessee, and South Carolina are not winnable games.  Any other team - especially at home or on a neutral court - we are capable of beating.
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