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Author Topic: NFL Quarterback  (Read 1033 times)

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kcolton

NFL Quarterback
« on: November 27, 2017, 11:18:48 pm »

Why is it so difficult for a quarterback to succeed in the NFL? It seems that there are teams with good or great ones, Then everyone else is lacking.
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KlubhouseKonnected

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2017, 11:31:02 pm »

Why is it so difficult for a quarterback to succeed in the NFL? It seems that there are teams with good or great ones, Then everyone else is lacking.

Less and less quarterbacks have played much in the prostyle before going pro and nfl franchises have been slow to adapt the way they play offense to account for that.

Thatís what I think but I am not far from the first person to subscribe to that opinion
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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 11:38:59 pm »

i actually think there are more franchise qbs in the league than ever. 
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longpig

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2017, 12:03:48 am »

defenses are better.  Worst defense in the league is pretty good.
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IronHog

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2017, 12:06:04 am »

Go to an NFL game in person



Game speed is unreal
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SooieGeneris

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2017, 01:17:11 am »

defenses are better.  Worst defense in the league is pretty good.

Have you seen the Raiders D? I have been a Raider fan for many years and this is the worst defense they have ever had in most ways.

Allowing over 70% completions and in 11 games, they have 19 sacks and 1, count 'em ONE INT. That one came Sunday against maybe the worst offense in the league with a QB making his 2nd or 3rd start.

The ball bounced off the receiver onto Reggie Nelson's hands at the back of the endzone and into the lap of Navorro Bowman who was lying flat on his back.

I don't understand how ANY defense could go 11 games with teams passing at least 30 times a game on average and have ONE INT.

As far as the QBs, your answer is early in the thread. Most college QBs play in spread offenses, some never take a snap from center. The running game is very limited out of the shotgun is why NFL teams still have the QB under center 30-40 pct of the time or so.

So many do the prairie dog looking to the sideline as the OC makes the call, or use those flashcards while NFL QBs have a coach in their ear almost right up until the snap with the radio transmitter in the helmet.

NFL defenses do so many different coverages that colleges don't have time to teach and while many colleges may have one good rusher, even the worst NFL defense has several.

There are a lot of guys who have the measurables and the arm who just can't deal with going into their drop, reading the defense while going thru their progressions knowing that a guy like Khalil Mack or Von Miller is trying to take their head off.

Meanwhile they are looking downfield, FEELING the rush, 'cause if they look at the rush, they are about to be looking thru the earhole of their helmet.

Jeff George and Jay Cutler are good examples of guys who seemed to have all the tools, physically, but never came close to being top QBs in the NFL.

I saw George and Steve McNair in person 1997. George was a better passer, but McNair was a way better QB.

I swear Jeff George threw a pass 40-50 yards downfield with a flick of the wrist to Tim Brown with a DB draped all over him and it looked like the ball curved around the defender into Brown's hands on the sidelines barely inbounds.

But George was aloof, anything but a leader, his teammates didn't respect him and he wasn't mentally or physically tough enough to excel. Same as Cutler.

McNair was tough as a $2 steak, kind of like Favre. He took shots in the chest that I don't know how anyone could get up from and throw the ball again in a matter of seconds in a 2 minute drill.

To sum up, I agree with Madden that the QB needs to be the toughest guy on the team and I'd take a guy with a little less ability to get that. Most just can't handle the physical and mental strain of all that and being the face of the franchise.

The ones who can are worth their weight in gold to a team. If Denver had Derek Carr for instance, or any top tier QB, they would have 3-4 more wins with that defense and the Raiders would be vying with Cleveland and the 49ers for the 1st pick in next year's draft with a mediocre running game and a weak D.
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EastexHawg

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2017, 08:59:15 am »

Joe Flacco is terrible this year...as in 30th in passer rating and 36th in yards per attempt.  He has been terrible for most of the last five years, with a total of 89 TD passes and 72 interceptions (averages of 18 and 14, respectively).  Everyone sees and knows it.

So does he keep his job for years on end just because he won Super Bowl MVP five years ago?

There are others.  Flacco is only an example.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2017, 04:44:02 pm »

Actually think itís coaching. Look what Goff has done this year with a new coach.
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bennyl08

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2017, 09:21:58 pm »

Why is it so difficult for a quarterback to succeed in the NFL? It seems that there are teams with good or great ones, Then everyone else is lacking.

It's not so much a qb problem as it is a professional sport problem in general. First you are limited by the number of people who choose to go into that sport and play that position in the first place. Then, you limited by how many can compete when the talent differential is so small. Last, but not least, the nature of the qb position does amplify the issues from the first two.

The qb touches the ball most every offensive snap. A CB or WR, otoh, may only be targeted 6 times in a game so most of their mistakes or accomplishments go unnoticed. From Tom Brady to Deshone Kizer, you have the NFL qb's show off arm strength, accuracy, and general throwing the ball talent in a low pressure environment, the difference between the best and the worst will be quite small. Those differences then get amplified in pressure situations. How engrained is proper footwork into your muscle memory? Have you put in so much time with practicing it that even when scared and you forget your training and do what comes natural, that the proper technique is just what you would naturally do? Further, how well have you studied? Somebody like tom brady could probably play a game with his eyes shut once the ball is snapped and have a better stat line than some other qb's because he knows what the defense is going to do and where his receivers are going to be before the ball is snapped. That can help keep you from ever being under pressure in the first place. Then there's just the genetic lottery aspect. Some people's brains can simply process information more accurately and quickly than others.

So yeah. There's not a huge physical difference between the best and worst players at qb out there. Really, it's about the amount of effort put in by the players and how well they are genetically able to process information. Just that with the qb position, you see every mistake and every accomplishment which most people don't with the other positions so everything is amplified a bit.

In speaking of the theme about the increased competition and smaller talent disparity, it's also why I don't buy the argument about the greats from yesteryear being great in today's game or vice versa. Call it the Colt Brennan phenomena if you will. Time and time again you see things like the qb who threw for 5k yards a year in college do way worse in the NFL than the college qb who threw for only 2.3k. The DE who got 17 sacks his senior season be outdone in the NFL by somebody whose best season in college only got them 8 sacks. It's not just a sports thing either. You'll see people one person who sees 10 moves ahead in checkers and one move ahead in chess and another who sees 5 ahead in checkers and 4 ahead in chess.
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ArkyFan2626

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 01:13:14 pm »

Actually think itís coaching. Look what Goff has done this year with a new coach.

I would agree. I think there is a lack of quality coaches in the NFL.
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Kneph13

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2017, 08:17:26 pm »

Have you seen the Raiders D? I have been a Raider fan for many years and this is the worst defense they have ever had in most ways.

Allowing over 70% completions and in 11 games, they have 19 sacks and 1, count 'em ONE INT. That one came Sunday against maybe the worst offense in the league with a QB making his 2nd or 3rd start.

The ball bounced off the receiver onto Reggie Nelson's hands at the back of the endzone and into the lap of Navorro Bowman who was lying flat on his back.

I don't understand how ANY defense could go 11 games with teams passing at least 30 times a game on average and have ONE INT.

As far as the QBs, your answer is early in the thread. Most college QBs play in spread offenses, some never take a snap from center. The running game is very limited out of the shotgun is why NFL teams still have the QB under center 30-40 pct of the time or so.

So many do the prairie dog looking to the sideline as the OC makes the call, or use those flashcards while NFL QBs have a coach in their ear almost right up until the snap with the radio transmitter in the helmet.

NFL defenses do so many different coverages that colleges don't have time to teach and while many colleges may have one good rusher, even the worst NFL defense has several.

There are a lot of guys who have the measurables and the arm who just can't deal with going into their drop, reading the defense while going thru their progressions knowing that a guy like Khalil Mack or Von Miller is trying to take their head off.

Meanwhile they are looking downfield, FEELING the rush, 'cause if they look at the rush, they are about to be looking thru the earhole of their helmet.

Jeff George and Jay Cutler are good examples of guys who seemed to have all the tools, physically, but never came close to being top QBs in the NFL.

I saw George and Steve McNair in person 1997. George was a better passer, but McNair was a way better QB.

I swear Jeff George threw a pass 40-50 yards downfield with a flick of the wrist to Tim Brown with a DB draped all over him and it looked like the ball curved around the defender into Brown's hands on the sidelines barely inbounds.

But George was aloof, anything but a leader, his teammates didn't respect him and he wasn't mentally or physically tough enough to excel. Same as Cutler.

McNair was tough as a $2 steak, kind of like Favre. He took shots in the chest that I don't know how anyone could get up from and throw the ball again in a matter of seconds in a 2 minute drill.

To sum up, I agree with Madden that the QB needs to be the toughest guy on the team and I'd take a guy with a little less ability to get that. Most just can't handle the physical and mental strain of all that and being the face of the franchise.

The ones who can are worth their weight in gold to a team. If Denver had Derek Carr for instance, or any top tier QB, they would have 3-4 more wins with that defense and the Raiders would be vying with Cleveland and the 49ers for the 1st pick in next year's draft with a mediocre running game and a weak D.

Been a Raiders fan since the early 60's.  The Raiders needs to ditch Derek Carr, Marshawn "past his prime and just drawing a paycheck" Lynch, Michael "drops a lot of passes" Crabtree, and Amari "injured reserve" Cooper, and retool their offense.

On another note, I heard that Tie-Rod Taylor's cousins, Torshaun Barr and Contro L'arme wished him Happy Holidays
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IronHog

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 08:43:03 pm »

It's not so much a qb problem as it is a professional sport problem in general. First you are limited by the number of people who choose to go into that sport and play that position in the first place. Then, you limited by how many can compete when the talent differential is so small. Last, but not least, the nature of the qb position does amplify the issues from the first two.

The qb touches the ball most every offensive snap. A CB or WR, otoh, may only be targeted 6 times in a game so most of their mistakes or accomplishments go unnoticed. From Tom Brady to Deshone Kizer, you have the NFL qb's show off arm strength, accuracy, and general throwing the ball talent in a low pressure environment, the difference between the best and the worst will be quite small. Those differences then get amplified in pressure situations. How engrained is proper footwork into your muscle memory? Have you put in so much time with practicing it that even when scared and you forget your training and do what comes natural, that the proper technique is just what you would naturally do? Further, how well have you studied? Somebody like tom brady could probably play a game with his eyes shut once the ball is snapped and have a better stat line than some other qb's because he knows what the defense is going to do and where his receivers are going to be before the ball is snapped. That can help keep you from ever being under pressure in the first place. Then there's just the genetic lottery aspect. Some people's brains can simply process information more accurately and quickly than others.

So yeah. There's not a huge physical difference between the best and worst players at qb out there. Really, it's about the amount of effort put in by the players and how well they are genetically able to process information. Just that with the qb position, you see every mistake and every accomplishment which most people don't with the other positions so everything is amplified a bit.

In speaking of the theme about the increased competition and smaller talent disparity, it's also why I don't buy the argument about the greats from yesteryear being great in today's game or vice versa. Call it the Colt Brennan phenomena if you will. Time and time again you see things like the qb who threw for 5k yards a year in college do way worse in the NFL than the college qb who threw for only 2.3k. The DE who got 17 sacks his senior season be outdone in the NFL by somebody whose best season in college only got them 8 sacks. It's not just a sports thing either. You'll see people one person who sees 10 moves ahead in checkers and one move ahead in chess and another who sees 5 ahead in checkers and 4 ahead in chess.


Elway, Marino, etc would destroy this NFL
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CDBHawg

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2017, 08:47:38 pm »

Why is it so difficult for a quarterback to succeed in the NFL? It seems that there are teams with good or great ones, Then everyone else is lacking.

Short answer is competition.

Every position in the NFL is lacking in franchise type players. It's why the turnover is so great.
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Hogs49ers

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 03:22:03 pm »

My question is how do guys like Jimmy Garappolo, Carson Wentz, and Josh Allen get overlooked coming out of highschool??  With the first 2 of those 3 already looking like they could be the next big HOF QBs out of the NFL. 
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 04:49:32 pm »

My question is how do guys like Jimmy Garappolo, Carson Wentz, and Josh Allen get overlooked coming out of highschool??  With the first 2 of those 3 already looking like they could be the next big HOF QBs out of the NFL. 

Because sometimes coaching actually does make a player better......
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bennyl08

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 05:32:53 pm »

My question is how do guys like Jimmy Garappolo, Carson Wentz, and Josh Allen get overlooked coming out of highschool??  With the first 2 of those 3 already looking like they could be the next big HOF QBs out of the NFL.

For Carson, it certainly wasn't grades. My guess is that it had to be exposure. North Dakota doesn't produce a ton of talent so not many people will even look to there. After that, you watch his HS highlights and you can see has an NFL arm and is quite athletic, but he's a 6'5 220 something pound big fish in a small pond. I'm guessing the few who did probably hear about him assumed that he had peaked.

For Garoppolo, watching his tape, nothing really stands out about him physically other than his release. I mean, I'd wager that there are probably 100 qb's in HS right now who have similar size, athleticism, and arm strength to Jimmy right now. Nothing about him there is particularly impressive. His biggest strength is in his head and that's really hard to project. Heck, his stats in college weren't all that great either. That big difference is that his play doesn't diminish as he moves upwards in difficulty since he can process the information just as fast. That's not true for most qb's.

Josh Allen: No idea. The kid showed a rocket arm. Was in California. Had big size. Maybe a bit skinny coming out of HS and it was a small town of only 8k.

At the end of the day, there are over 1 million kids playing football in HS. There are only about 3k scholarships to give out in a given year for D1 schools.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 07:15:16 pm »

Itís like Roethlisberger being at Miami..... of Ohio. 
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IronHog

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 08:38:46 pm »

My question is how do guys like Jimmy Garappolo, Carson Wentz, and Josh Allen get overlooked coming out of highschool??  With the first 2 of those 3 already looking like they could be the next big HOF QBs out of the NFL. 


Some people ate late bloomers


 Not uncommon for some males to grow till their mid 20ís
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hawkhawg

Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2017, 12:32:49 am »

My question is how do guys like Jimmy Garappolo, Carson Wentz, and Josh Allen get overlooked coming out of highschool??  With the first 2 of those 3 already looking like they could be the next big HOF QBs out of the NFL. 

Belichick may be the best in history at this.  He has dominated the NFL on the back of overlooked players.  He has a eye for seeing something in players that no one else sees. 
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bennyl08

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm »

Belichick may be the best in history at this.  He has dominated the NFL on the back of overlooked players.  He has a eye for seeing something in players that no one else sees.

He's got an eye for players who work very well in his system. A lot of his players don't do so well when they leave, save for some players like Chandler Jones who was still a first round pick.

IMO, Bellichick is probably the best coach out there. I know, really going out on a limb with that statement. However, part of that is that I think he can have success without the best. I.e. you make half of their roster be people cut from other teams in training camps, and he'll find a way to win his division and get a first round bye still.

Seahawks are some of the best at finding ace players late in the draft. Teams across the league have found starters in those that the hawks have cut, albeit some of those cut, the seahawks probably wish they didn't in hindsight.

However, at least as of a few years ago, the Packers were hands down the best team in the league in terms of the number of players on their roster that they themselves drafted.
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Buff

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Re: NFL Quarterback
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2017, 12:54:23 pm »


However, at least as of a few years ago, the Packers were hands down the best team in the league in terms of the number of players on their roster that they themselves drafted.

Thankfully, because our fricking GM refuses to play in free agency.
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