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Knowing what we know now - would you let your kid play football?

yes
no
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Hogs-n-Roses

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #200 on: May 11, 2017, 04:34:19 pm »

The number of football related sad stories pales in comparison to the damage done by meth,coke,marijuana,alcohol,heroin....DWI deaths are alarming among teens,as well as std's.Hope this isn't taken as a derail.unintended.I just happen to teach a drug/alcohol class for the sheriffs office and do research on these areas weekly.These areas of concern are alarming,not football.
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twistitup

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #201 on: May 11, 2017, 05:52:19 pm »

Illegal drugs arent going anywhere...here to stay, shouldnt still be alarming in any way....The War on Drugs is a complete failure-

Now back to head injuries and football...I still have hope that football can somehow become safer.
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redneckfriend

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #202 on: May 11, 2017, 06:23:57 pm »

So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).
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ricepig

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #203 on: May 11, 2017, 06:50:30 pm »

So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).

More than likely, their kids aren't interested in playing, so it's immaterial. I suspect they cheer for the rich white kids who play, too.
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The Kig

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #204 on: May 11, 2017, 07:35:26 pm »

Rugby- yes
Football- hell no


Played both, Rugby at a higher level than football.  Saw more blood, stitches, knees, shoulders in Rugby, but less concussions.  Maybe it's the pads in football that cause more head on collisions or maybe it's that Rugby is more fluid.  In football, both sides stop every few seconds, line up and when the ball is snapped charge into the opposing side. 

My daughter played competitive soccer (travel and HS) for years.  Data is coming out regarding concussions in soccer, no so much related to collisions (which do happen when two heads meet at the ball), but more around the constant impact of heading the ball.  Some states are considering requiring headgear for HS and below. 

Boxing/MMA, while fun to watch, should only be done by people who don't care or aren't smart enough to consider their future. 

I'm torn on football...probably wouldn't want a son to do it, but am a complete junkie for Hog football above any other spectator sport.  We are having this discussion on MMQB where most of us spend hours a week during football season debating our beloved team.  I would have jumped at the chance to play for the Hogs would had to be carted off the field unconscious before leaving willingly.   Even knowing the danger of todays football, I would play without a helmet if they let me on the field.  So if I had a son that was as passionate,  not sure how I would deny him.
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The Kig

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #205 on: May 11, 2017, 07:42:06 pm »

So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).

I see Red/White (and sometimes anthracite)...

By the way, (based on grammar), what level of education does ending a sentence with a preposition lead you to suspect?
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #206 on: May 11, 2017, 08:03:45 pm »

Lol.  See the stats I posted earlier in the report on football injuries from 1931-2013.  Annual football deaths were double and triple the number they are now until 1976, when leading with the head was outlawed.  Do you think concussions just became an issue?

Speaking for myself, I played on Hall's state championship team in 1978.  Gary Woods and George Hall weren't 150.  They both went to Arkansas, although I think Gary transferred to Tulsa.  He was the best running back in the state.  George was a nose guard.  All-SWC I think.  I was 6'3' and 190 and a half step slower than Gary.   

Players are bigger, stronger and faster now than ever, but helmets are much better than when I played.  No helmet is concussion proof, because as many have correctly pointed out, concussions occur when the brain collides with the inside of the skull.  It's like a car accident.  When a car doing 60 comes to an immediate stop, the passengers are still doing 60 until they are restrained or hit something. 

Since my son has been playing high school football, every player is tested, and a baseline is set.  Here's a link to how it works:

http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html

Any time the team trainer even thinks a player may have a concussion, that player is finished for practice or the game until he is tested against his baseline test.  He is not eligible to play again until he has been through a very conservative protocol.  Records of every concussion are kept, of course.  Certain helmets now come equipped with monitors that indicate when a blow to the helmet is serious enough to cause a concussion.  I don't believe they are significantly more expensive than the standard top-of-the-line helmet.  I believe our head coach recently said they may be $200 more. 

In any event, the game and equipment are evolving to minimize to the extent possible changes in the size and speed of the athletes.  The numbers reflect that injuries in 2017 are not as severe as they were before 1976.

Death's have gone down dramatically but that's a different topic. Head injuries ≠ death.

Did concussions just become an issue? In all honesty, yes. Namely, 15 years ago, if the player wanted to keep playing, concussion be darned, they just had their bell rung, no concussion, keep playing. Much less the other research being done in the past decade or so. Further, to the players are bigger and stronger now than before (data suggests that players aren't much faster today by starters at least. Namely, yeah a 300lb player today is faster than a 300lb player of yesterday, but today's 300lb player is replacing the 280lb player and is about the same speed.) Anyways, look at concussion rates and knockouts by boxing. It increases as the weight class increases. I.e. despite the added muscle mass, the head becomes more vulnerable to force when more force is applied. Thus, based on the size of players today, I'd be surprised if concussions were not more prevalent today than in the past. However, I wouldn't use rates listed to quantify that as previously stated, concussions were much more likely to be ignored in the past than today and thus the difference would be a bit overstated.

However, a key issue with the whole argument is framing in terms of catastrophic incidents. Namely deaths and concussions. Refer back to my earlier link in this thread that did full scans of 24 HS student's brains before and after a football season while monitoring each and every hit they took. Not a single one of them had a concussion during the season (or died for that matter). However, every single one of them showed collision related physiological changes to their brain with the degree of change directly related to the cumulative impact and type of impact received to the head. Of course, whether or not they were able to heal from those changes over time hasn't been studied. Brain trauma research is still very much in it's infancy.

Further, there are different levels of CTE. It could be as little as a few more headaches and slight decision making changes. It doesn't have to be full on dementia/suicidal depression levels of damage. Which again speaks against this idea of big things. You don't have to become an idiot, or have some huge mental breakdown to have brain damage. You don't have to have a concussion to get brain damage.
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EastexHawg

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #207 on: May 11, 2017, 08:10:34 pm »

How many season ending injuries happen in football compared to basketball or baseball?  How many 20 yr old basketball or baseball players have to retire as Jr's to be because of recurring neck injuries or cumulative concussions?

I don't know, so why don't you provide an answer.  I have personally never known anyone who had to "retire" at a young age because of football related head trauma.  Have you?
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #208 on: May 11, 2017, 08:22:11 pm »

Death's have gone down dramatically but that's a different topic. Head injuries ≠ death.

Did concussions just become an issue? In all honesty, yes. Namely, 15 years ago, if the player wanted to keep playing, concussion be darned, they just had their bell rung, no concussion, keep playing. Much less the other research being done in the past decade or so. Further, to the players are bigger and stronger now than before (data suggests that players aren't much faster today by starters at least. Namely, yeah a 300lb player today is faster than a 300lb player of yesterday, but today's 300lb player is replacing the 280lb player and is about the same speed.) Anyways, look at concussion rates and knockouts by boxing. It increases as the weight class increases. I.e. despite the added muscle mass, the head becomes more vulnerable to force when more force is applied. Thus, based on the size of players today, I'd be surprised if concussions were not more prevalent today than in the past. However, I wouldn't use rates listed to quantify that as previously stated, concussions were much more likely to be ignored in the past than today and thus the difference would be a bit overstated.

However, a key issue with the whole argument is framing in terms of catastrophic incidents. Namely deaths and concussions. Refer back to my earlier link in this thread that did full scans of 24 HS student's brains before and after a football season while monitoring each and every hit they took. Not a single one of them had a concussion during the season (or died for that matter). However, every single one of them showed collision related physiological changes to their brain with the degree of change directly related to the cumulative impact and type of impact received to the head. Of course, whether or not they were able to heal from those changes over time hasn't been studied. Brain trauma research is still very much in it's infancy.

Further, there are different levels of CTE. It could be as little as a few more headaches and slight decision making changes. It doesn't have to be full on dementia/suicidal depression levels of damage. Which again speaks against this idea of big things. You don't have to become an idiot, or have some huge mental breakdown to have brain damage. You don't have to have a concussion to get brain damage.

Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.
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southarkhog06

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #209 on: May 11, 2017, 08:22:35 pm »

considering I still deal with occasional migraines and insomnia, that may or may not be related to trying to play at a 5A school at 5'10" 150lbs. I will prolly only let my son play if he really, really wants too.
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southarkhog06

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #210 on: May 11, 2017, 08:27:39 pm »

Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.
That "micro-crap" is not so easily dismissed if you are one of the former lineman whose brain literally has holes in it from repeatedly being smacked in the head by dudes that weigh 280+.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #211 on: May 11, 2017, 08:52:12 pm »

That "micro-crap" is not so easily dismissed if you are one of the former lineman whose brain literally has holes in it from repeatedly being smacked in the head by dudes that weigh 280+.

Okay. Who are they?  How long did they play?  Links?  Details?
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #212 on: May 11, 2017, 08:58:35 pm »

Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.

If becoming a walking dead is the only thing that'll change your mind, then there isn't anything to see. That's not what happens to most people with brain damage.

I don't want football to go away. I do want people to know the risks. If they accept those risks, that's what freedom is all about. Ignoring the "micro-crap" though is like ignoring the stream to only focus on landslides. Sure, the landslide is a big thing and you'll know it when it happens. However, that stream will move more rock and sediment than the landslides ever will.
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #213 on: May 11, 2017, 08:59:40 pm »

Okay. Who are they?  How long did they play?  Links?  Details?

There's a ton of links in here. Just scroll up and start clicking on them. To quote David Byrne, say something once, why say it again?
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factchecker

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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #215 on: May 11, 2017, 09:21:04 pm »

There's a ton of links in here. Just scroll up and start clicking on them. To quote David Byrne, say something once, why say it again?

I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #216 on: May 11, 2017, 09:30:38 pm »

I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?

If you are literally too lazy to scroll this thread for big red strings of letters and click on them, then why would I expect you to actually read the words in the links which will require even more effort on your part?
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twistitup

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #217 on: May 11, 2017, 09:32:01 pm »

I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?

The damage starts in Pop Warner- I posted you a link a.few pages back
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #218 on: May 11, 2017, 09:56:50 pm »

The damage starts in Pop Warner- I posted you a link a.few pages back

That wasn't the question.  After presenting and cross-examining dozens of expert witnesses over twenty years, I know that any thesis can be supported by "facts". 

The question was posed to southarkhog06. Where are the names and details concerning the former linemen with holes in their brains? A link will do.   benny would argue that the sky isn't blue on a sunny day, but he can't answer a simple question - has he ever played a down of football?
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EastexHawg

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #219 on: May 11, 2017, 10:11:14 pm »

http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028

Here's another example, one who died tragically at the age of 68.  Who will ever forget the many concussions she suffered while playing MLB for those great Steelers teams?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #220 on: May 11, 2017, 10:27:20 pm »

Here's another example, one who died tragically at the age of 68.  Who will ever forget the many concussions she suffered while playing MLB for those great Steelers teams?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth

She could have tackled me any day.

And we all know the Jerry Eckwood story.  It's really sad.  How much of his problems were due to concussions is open to question.

What about Tedi Bruschi? 

There are others.  But show us the flood of vegetables indisputably created by football-related head injuries. 
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bphi11ips

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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #224 on: May 11, 2017, 10:37:25 pm »

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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #225 on: May 11, 2017, 10:38:35 pm »

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941
http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-football-brain-changes-20161128-story.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/study-956-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players-tested-positive-for-cte/
http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/
https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf
http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html
http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

Here's a list of most of the links posted in this thread. Some posted by you, some by me, some by others. At least 3 of these links have the information you are requesting.

Also, yes, I have played football before, but didn't wear pads. Also, I played rugby for a bit.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2017, 10:46:28 pm »

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941
http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-football-brain-changes-20161128-story.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/study-956-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players-tested-positive-for-cte/
http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/
https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf
http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html
http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

Here's a list of most of the links posted in this thread. Some posted by you, some by me, some by others. At least 3 of these links have the information you are requesting.

Also, yes, I have played football before, but didn't wear pads.

You mean the links about linemen retiring because of concussions?  That's not the question.  Where are the linemen with permanent, life-altering brain damage caused by micro-concussions? 

Listen - for whatever reason, you generally aspire to be Hogville's version of Mel Kiper, but now you seem to think football should go away. Do you just like arguing with me, or have you decided football is a brutish game with no social value? 
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EastexHawg

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #227 on: May 11, 2017, 10:48:50 pm »

I've had several and only one happened on a football field.  The worst one was when a ramp I was jumping on a bicycle collapsed upon me hitting it going probably 30 mph.  I remember seeing the ground coming toward my face.  Apparently I was out a couple of minutes.  I woke up to one friend laughing and another saying, "Stop laughing, he may be dead."

Then there was the hood of the 1966 International Scout... with the top down...that broke loose from the bungee cords that were serving as a makeshift hood latch and hit me over the top of my head at about 60 mph.  Luckily for the guy sitting in the front seat beside me I was 6'5" to his 5'10" so I took one for the team.  If that vehicle is still on the road the imprint of my skull is still in it.

I also had a 300 pound buddy who said, "Bob Lilly on the pass rush" just as he blindsided me in his garage and knocked me through the air and forehead first into the corner of a storage closet door.  When I came to his little brother was crying, hovering over me and staring at the hen egg sized knot above my right eye...
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #228 on: May 11, 2017, 11:09:37 pm »

Why are you sorry, because you think I misapplied Einstein's theory of relativity?  I suppose you'd like to explain it to me.

Here's the deal - we're not talking about the speed of light, but we are talking about mass times velocity.  I've used the theory of relativity many times to illustrate to players that mass times velocity equals energy.  It's the reason you want to be the train and not the car, the hammer and not the nail, the windshield and not the bug, the runner and not the catcher.  The best way to avoid an injury is to hit the opposing player harder than he hits you.  If you don't understand that, you've probably never played football.

Missed your reply.

Oh man, you either did not take physics classes or did not do well in them. mass times velocity doesn't equal energy, it equals momentum. Kinetic energy often written as 1/2mv^2 which is a far cry from mv which is it's derivative. Further, none of that has to do with relativity at all. E=mc^2 relates the resting mass (because your mass changes depending on how fast you are moving) to the energy and vice versa. E=mc^2 is why neutron weighs less than a proton and an electron separately despite being created by those two particles merging. The mass that "disappears" is converted into binding energy to hold the two particles together into the single neutron.

You are referring to basic kinematics which was known hundreds of years before relativity came along.

Also, no, that is not the best way to avoid an injury. Best way to avoid an injury is to not get hit at all. As for the impact, it depends on how elastic the collision is or is not. For example, the momentum (which is what you are referring to with m*v) of a bullet is not terribly high. A man walking towards a bullet will have more momentum than the bullet flying towards the man. The damage and injury is caused by the shearing and pressure from such a small point of contact. If energy is what you want to talk about, a bullet has about 1kJ of energy. A 100kg man (~225 pounds) running at 9mph towards the bullet would then have more KE than the bullet as well.

Okay, sure that's bullets, but what about people? Let's assume (incorrectly) that the collision is elastic (think billiard balls). In that case, technically speaking injuries would be impossible. However, if you both weigh 100kg and you are going really fast say 20mph and the other player is going 10mph. Sure, you are imparting twice as much momentum into that other person, but you are still going to absorb the 440kgm/s of momentum from the other player. Just that they'll get 900kgm/s from you. Going faster won't prevent you from being injured in a collision, it'll just make sure the other person gets it worse.
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #229 on: May 11, 2017, 11:15:19 pm »

You mean the links about linemen retiring because of concussions?  That's not the question.  Where are the linemen with permanent, life-altering brain damage caused by micro-concussions? 

It's in the links above if you actually care. I've literally brought the water to you but I can't force you to drink it.

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Listen - for whatever reason, you generally aspire to be Hogville's version of Mel Kiper, but now you seem to think football should go away. Do you just like arguing with me, or have you decided football is a brutish game with no social value?

Show me one single post of mine where it could even be implied that I want football to go away.

If I post that loud music can damage your ears, does that mean I think rock and roll sucks and want to ban live concerts?
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LZH

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #230 on: May 12, 2017, 04:29:05 am »

I see Red/White (and sometimes anthracite)...

By the way, (based on grammar), what level of education does ending a sentence with a preposition lead you to suspect?

Snap.....
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twistitup

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #231 on: May 12, 2017, 06:01:27 am »

Same.  Let me repeat the question - where are the linemen with holes in their brains from football related micro-concussions?

Do research on the brain, the skull, and head trauma....inside of skull (forehead) is rough and it punctures the frontal lobe
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 10:10:34 am by twistitup »
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twistitup

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #232 on: May 12, 2017, 06:04:24 am »

This is not a thread wanting to get rid of football...simply discuss the dangers of it. I played, still love it - but suffer from it too.
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twistitup

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #233 on: May 12, 2017, 06:09:20 am »

This is not a thread wanting to get rid of football...simply discuss the dangers of it. I played, still love it - but suffer from it too.

I was forrced by doctors to quit playing but still wanted to. Football was like my drug- i knew it was rough on my body but I still loved it....couldnt get enough.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 06:36:56 am by twistitup »
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Pork Twain

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #234 on: May 12, 2017, 06:10:16 am »

If they went back to fewer pads and less protective helmets, yes.  All of this padding makes them think they are invincible, but there is no padding for the inside of their head and as someone that has dealt with TBI, I can say with certainty, that has more long-term damage associated with it than any body part all that padding is designed to protect.  You get hit or hit hard enough and your brain is playing pinball with the inside of your skull.  Give them leather helmets and they will stop using their heads as battering rams.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #235 on: May 12, 2017, 08:24:45 am »

Missed your reply.

Oh man, you either did not take physics classes or did not do well in them. mass times velocity doesn't equal energy, it equals momentum. Kinetic energy often written as 1/2mv^2 which is a far cry from mv which is it's derivative. Further, none of that has to do with relativity at all. E=mc^2 relates the resting mass (because your mass changes depending on how fast you are moving) to the energy and vice versa. E=mc^2 is why neutron weighs less than a proton and an electron separately despite being created by those two particles merging. The mass that "disappears" is converted into binding energy to hold the two particles together into the single neutron.

You are referring to basic kinematics which was known hundreds of years before relativity came along.

Also, no, that is not the best way to avoid an injury. Best way to avoid an injury is to not get hit at all. As for the impact, it depends on how elastic the collision is or is not. For example, the momentum (which is what you are referring to with m*v) of a bullet is not terribly high. A man walking towards a bullet will have more momentum than the bullet flying towards the man. The damage and injury is caused by the shearing and pressure from such a small point of contact. If energy is what you want to talk about, a bullet has about 1kJ of energy. A 100kg man (~225 pounds) running at 9mph towards the bullet would then have more KE than the bullet as well.

Okay, sure that's bullets, but what about people? Let's assume (incorrectly) that the collision is elastic (think billiard balls). In that case, technically speaking injuries would be impossible. However, if you both weigh 100kg and you are going really fast say 20mph and the other player is going 10mph. Sure, you are imparting twice as much momentum into that other person, but you are still going to absorb the 440kgm/s of momentum from the other player. Just that they'll get 900kgm/s from you. Going faster won't prevent you from being injured in a collision, it'll just make sure the other person gets it worse.

As I said above, I've used the theory of relativity as an analogy because most kids have heard of it and know it deals with mass and velocity.  They wouldn't have a clue if I tried to explain it to them.  They understand bugs and windshields. 

The point is this - if you are going to put on pads and play tackle football, you need to hit your opponent with as much force as you can muster from proper position.  That is not to prove you're tough or help your teammates.  That is to protect yourself.  There are exceptions, e.g., the sideline is an extra tackler.  There's no need to hit a player when you can push him out of bounds.

Football is played with the eyes and feet.  You can't play with your eyes unless your head is up.  Leading with your helmet has been illegal for 40 years.  This is basic football. Playing with proper positioning and understanding how and when to deliver a blow is one key to minimizing injuries. 

In your bullet example, how much force would the bullet have if its velocity was the same but it weighed 225 pounds?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 09:44:03 am by bphi11ips »
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #236 on: May 12, 2017, 08:24:52 am »

I don't know, so why don't you provide an answer.  I have personally never known anyone who had to "retire" at a young age because of football related head trauma.  Have you?

Yes, actually I do know a 8th grader who had to quit football last year after his 3rd concussion in 18 months. He still has 3 days he can't remember, and missed 3 weeks of school after the last one.

So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).


The question posed was would you let your child play football. That could be asked of anyone, regardless of socio-economic, ethnic, or any other factors. Once the decision to allow them to play is made, and they progress to be good enough to play in college, why shouldn't people cheer for them?
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southarkhog06

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #237 on: May 12, 2017, 09:18:57 am »

She could have tackled me any day.

And we all know the Jerry Eckwood story.  It's really sad.  How much of his problems were due to concussions is open to question.

What about Tedi Bruschi? 

There are others.  But show us the flood of vegetables indisputably created by football-related head injuries.
I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #238 on: May 12, 2017, 09:24:04 am »

I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

I had severe headaches about 4 years ago caused by a nerve problem in my neck, if I had headaches like that chronically, I would have seriously considered ending it all, I can not imagine living with that pain continually. Thankfully mine was fixable. 
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LZH

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #239 on: May 12, 2017, 09:25:48 am »

I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

Of course not. Hell that sounds like my last relationship.
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southarkhog06

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2017, 09:36:57 am »

Of course not. Hell that sounds like my last relationship.
Well we live and learn. ;D
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LZH

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2017, 09:40:08 am »

Well we live and learn. ;D

Ha! Not too sure about that.....there's always another ex-Mrs. LZH around somewhere.
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2017, 09:58:02 am »

I think the thing to weigh is that knowing the risks, and learning more about the POSSIBLE long term effects of head injury ( either major concussions or "micro" concussions caused by repetitive brain sloshing ) coupled with the very small chance your child is ever going to use football to get into college or play at the professional level would you let your child play football when there are many other outlets for team/individual sports?

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311Hog

Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2017, 10:01:18 am »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/02/03/sports/football/nfl-brain-disease-cte-concussions.html?_r=0

Here are a couple links for you Bphillips.  The second one has linemen on it clearly.  A lineman's brain was what started the research into CTE.  I am not sure if you have seen the COncussion movie with Will Smith but it is pretty stark.

2 things i am sure of.  1 CTE is real and scary, and 2 the NFL tried to cover it up for years.

Also no one is saying if you play football you will 100% get CTE, but even if 1 out of 100 do that is very real consequences that gives me pause.

Wild thing is even knowing this i am not sure i would do things differently for myself, but for my kids the choice becomes quiet a bit more complicated.
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southarkhog06

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2017, 10:17:34 am »

Ha! Not too sure about that.....there's always another ex-Mrs. LZH around somewhere.
Well we live and live... learning is overrated.
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LZH

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2017, 10:23:18 am »

Well we live and live... learning is overrated.

Now that I can understand.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2017, 11:48:29 am »

I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

I believe the concussion I suffered playing basketball was the most likely source for a series of migraines I had starting at about the age of 15.  People use the term migraine pretty loosely to describe bad headaches.  Mine had all kinds of symptoms.  I knew one was coming when half of everything I looked at disappeared.  It was sort of like seeing spots.  Then I'd get numbness in my fingers and nausea.  I'd always throw up.  At it's worst the pain in my head was unbearable, and I'd lose the ability to speak.  My mother was terrified, of course, the first time this happened.  She took me to the emergency room where I was given a shot of Demerol, and I was okay when I woke up.  I went to a neurosurgeon and got a CAT scan.  The neurosurgeon sent me to an eye doctor, who diagnosed an enlarged blind spot.  Didn't make a lot of sense to me.  For a few years I had one or two episodes a year, and then sporadically for another ten.  The last full blown one I had was at about the age of 28, and I've had a few since that had some of the symptoms.  Haven't had one at all in about 10 years.

The first time I thought my migraines might be linked to the concussion was when I saw a segment about Tedi Bruschi on 60 Minutes.  His migraines, as I recall, were attributed to the many concussions he suffered as an NFL linebacker.  The thing that stuck in my mind was that true migraines are like mini-strokes that, over time, can cause damage to the brain.  Until then I had accepted the "enlarged blind spot" theory, although I'd also learned, based upon my own research, that there is a theory that migraines are a form of epilepsy.  Epileptic seizures occur because of a sudden surge of electrical activity in the brain.  The exact cause of migraine headaches is unknown, but it is thought to be due to abnormal brain activity causing a temporary alteration in the nerve signals, chemicals and blood flow in the brain.  So - based upon what I learned over time and independent research, I concluded that my migraines resulted from epileptic-like abnormal brain activity that was either hereditary and latent at the time I suffered a severe concussion or was induced by that concussion.  I don't know and don't believe doctors know, either.  But for purposes of this discussion, I have assumed the concussion could have been the cause.

About 12% of Americans suffer from migraines.  Seventy-five percent of those suffering from migraines are women.  Although the cause of migraines is not clearly understood, it makes intuitive sense that some migraines may be the result of concussions or repeated head trauma.  Here's a link with a lot of well organized, simple information about migraines:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148373.php

At the end of the day, neither my experience with a concussion and subsequent migraines nor my research is enough to cause me to prohibit my son from playing football or my daughter from cheering, another sport where concussions are common.  I spoke last night with my wife about this thread, and to put it mildly, she has stronger feelings about this than I do.  She asked if I told everyone that football has been all our son has wanted to do since he was a toddler.  She reminded me that, when he was asked in kindergarten (on a video taped for "graduation") what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said "NFL football player".  Lot's of kids say that at that age.  He has lived it so far.  Will he make it?  The odds aren't good, but who am I to interrupt his dream? Like J.J. Watt says - "Dream big.  Work hard."  Every great accomplishment starts with those two elements. 

P.S. - where my son is concerned, I have been influenced by this discussion as to what position I hope he plays in college.  He is being recruited as a player by some very prestigious FCS schools.  He is being recruited as a placekicker/punter by several P5 schools.  Kicking has been his focus until recently when he began getting serious attention from the FCS schools.  But he wants to play in front of P5 size crowds.  Who doesn't?  The problem is that kickers at that level have become largely preferred walk-ons at best, while full scholarships or substantial financial aid is provided to players.  We'll find a way to make whatever he wants to do happen, but the risk of injury, especially head injury, is a serious factor to consider, and this thread has helped me frame it.
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2017, 02:55:19 pm »

As I said above, I've used the theory of relativity as an analogy because most kids have heard of it and know it deals with mass and velocity.  They wouldn't have a clue if I tried to explain it to them.  They understand bugs and windshields. 

Bugs windshields have nothing to do with relativity though. You could just as easily replace relativity with pokemon, the Kardashians, or whiskey and it would be just as relevant.

It might make you sound smarter to the kids so that they listen to what you have to say, but name dropping relativity under such a thing is basically lying to them.

Replace a but with a rock and now the windshield is the one that is broken and the rock stays intact. The force is the same on the windshield as it is the buck. That's Newton's first law. The difference is that the material properties of the bug are weaker than the glass so the force squishes the bug. A rock is stronger than a bug and stronger than the glass. So, the glass will crack and break before the rock.

Quote
The point is this - if you are going to put on pads and play tackle football, you need to hit your opponent with as much force as you can muster from proper position.  That is not to prove you're tough or help your teammates.  That is to protect yourself.  There are exceptions, e.g., the sideline is an extra tackler.  There's no need to hit a player when you can push him out of bounds.

You hitting the opposing player with more force, energy, momentum, etc... won't protect you more though. That is false information. I mean, have you ever played bloody knuckles? You punching the other person's knuckles harder than they punch you doesn't protect your hand at all other than getting them to succumb to the pain first and shortening the game.

If you want to bring relativity into this, special and general relativity aren't applicable but your run of the mill lesson on reference frames absolutely is. The beautiful thing with physics is that it works the same regardless of reference frame (so long as we are in a non-inertial frame that is). For example, driving home, from the reference frame of the car, the house is moving towards you and you are stationary. From the reference frame of the yard, the house is stationary and the car moves towards it. However, the physics is the same. Same thing is always true. Bloody knuckles? You get the same result with one person punching a stationary fist as you do both fists punching each other. Let's say both are punching at 10mph. The collision is an inelastic one so the same thing happens when one fist going 20mph punches a stationary fist, same as one going 15 and the other going 5, same thing as both equally going 10 mph. Football collisions are typically inelastic collisions as well if you wrap up. If you alligator tackle like the seahawks do, a lot of that energy is converted into rotational, but the rest gets absorbed into the players.

Quote
Football is played with the eyes and feet.  You can't play with your eyes unless your head is up.  Leading with your helmet has been illegal for 40 years.  This is basic football. Playing with proper positioning and understanding how and when to deliver a blow is one key to minimizing injuries. 

In your bullet example, how much force would the bullet have if its velocity was the same but it weighed 225 pounds?

Agree with the above paragraph. Much of the positioning goes back to the bug vs the rock hitting the windshield. Proper positioning is basically making sure the contact happens with parts of your body that are like the rock and not the bug.

Force is the time derivative of momentum. So, unless the bullet is accelerating or changing it's mass, there won't be any force and we typically treat projectile motion as having a constant velocity. So, the force on the bullet would just be gravity which is kind of boring. When the bullet collides with something, it will be providing a force to that object. How much though depends a bit on the object itself and that gets complicated. The energy it would have would be about 6.5 megajoules which is pretty exciting. Of course, if this were still fired by a hand held gun somehow, the person shooting the gun would be thrown backwards by the same amount of energy. Assuming the weight of the gun isn't a whole lot compared to the person shooting it who also weight that much, the person would be thrown backwards with the same speed that the bullet is. Which is why really big guns usually have to be mounted onto something. A 350g bullet with 1200m/s (4,000 ft/s) muzzle velocity would launch a 210 pound man (assuming the gun weighs about 15 pounds) backwards at nearly 10mph.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2017, 03:08:35 pm »

Bugs windshields have nothing to do with relativity though. You could just as easily replace relativity with pokemon, the Kardashians, or whiskey and it would be just as relevant.

It might make you sound smarter to the kids so that they listen to what you have to say, but name dropping relativity under such a thing is basically lying to them.

Replace a but with a rock and now the windshield is the one that is broken and the rock stays intact. The force is the same on the windshield as it is the buck. That's Newton's first law. The difference is that the material properties of the bug are weaker than the glass so the force squishes the bug. A rock is stronger than a bug and stronger than the glass. So, the glass will crack and break before the rock.

You hitting the opposing player with more force, energy, momentum, etc... won't protect you more though. That is false information. I mean, have you ever played bloody knuckles? You punching the other person's knuckles harder than they punch you doesn't protect your hand at all other than getting them to succumb to the pain first and shortening the game.

If you want to bring relativity into this, special and general relativity aren't applicable but your run of the mill lesson on reference frames absolutely is. The beautiful thing with physics is that it works the same regardless of reference frame (so long as we are in a non-inertial frame that is). For example, driving home, from the reference frame of the car, the house is moving towards you and you are stationary. From the reference frame of the yard, the house is stationary and the car moves towards it. However, the physics is the same. Same thing is always true. Bloody knuckles? You get the same result with one person punching a stationary fist as you do both fists punching each other. Let's say both are punching at 10mph. The collision is an inelastic one so the same thing happens when one fist going 20mph punches a stationary fist, same as one going 15 and the other going 5, same thing as both equally going 10 mph. Football collisions are typically inelastic collisions as well if you wrap up. If you alligator tackle like the seahawks do, a lot of that energy is converted into rotational, but the rest gets absorbed into the players.

Agree with the above paragraph. Much of the positioning goes back to the bug vs the rock hitting the windshield. Proper positioning is basically making sure the contact happens with parts of your body that are like the rock and not the bug.

Force is the time derivative of momentum. So, unless the bullet is accelerating or changing it's mass, there won't be any force and we typically treat projectile motion as having a constant velocity. So, the force on the bullet would just be gravity which is kind of boring. When the bullet collides with something, it will be providing a force to that object. How much though depends a bit on the object itself and that gets complicated. The energy it would have would be about 6.5 megajoules which is pretty exciting. Of course, if this were still fired by a hand held gun somehow, the person shooting the gun would be thrown backwards by the same amount of energy. Assuming the weight of the gun isn't a whole lot compared to the person shooting it who also weight that much, the person would be thrown backwards with the same speed that the bullet is. Which is why really big guns usually have to be mounted onto something. A 350g bullet with 1200m/s (4,000 ft/s) muzzle velocity would launch a 210 pound man (assuming the gun weighs about 15 pounds) backwards at nearly 10mph.

I am in awe of your superior intelligence, young man, but you don't know jack about playing football. 
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #249 on: May 12, 2017, 03:27:08 pm »

I am in awe of your superior intelligence, young man, but you don't know jack about playing football.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

There's a reason why hard hitting players are more likely to be injured in the NFL.
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