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Author Topic: Roster Comparisons  (Read 9752 times)

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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2017, 02:17:15 pm »

Tabs in word apparently don't translate well via copy past to here. Good enough
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2017, 02:21:19 pm »

Some trends: The OL seems to be converging to around 311-313 pounds with the exception of Wallace. Several, even Ragnow, have shed a bit of weight. Specialists have also gotten lighter.

Guidry lost some weight to be a DE instead of a DT. Marshall gained more weight presumably to be a DT instead of a DE.

Not too many surprises out there, except for Cole Kelley. Gained another 10 pounds and now weight 268! Not sure if that is lean mass or not. If not, we may have our very own Pillsbury Throwboy by the time he starts. Does Kentucky rotate into our schedule in 18 or 19?
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GuvHog

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2017, 02:25:05 pm »

Some trends: The OL seems to be converging to around 311-313 pounds with the exception of Wallace. Several, even Ragnow, have shed a bit of weight. Specialists have also gotten lighter.

Guidry lost some weight to be a DE instead of a DT. Marshall gained more weight presumably to be a DT instead of a DE.

Not too many surprises out there, except for Cole Kelley. Gained another 10 pounds and now weight 268! Not sure if that is lean mass or not. If not, we may have our very own Pillsbury Throwboy by the time he starts. Does Kentucky rotate into our schedule in 18 or 19?

My guess is Marshall will be in the NG rotation. The 3-4 defense doesn't have DTs.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2017, 02:30:51 pm »

My guess is Marshall will be in the NG rotation. The 3-4 defense doesn't have DTs.

Yes they do. The NG is essentially a special type of DT. A DT plays anywhere from a 0 to a 4 technique with a NG playing from a 0 to a 1 technique. You often see it listed as a nose tackle in the 3-4 because it is a DT lined up right on the nose.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2017, 02:36:31 pm »

Going back to Kelley, can you imagine the look on a DE's face when he's going up to sack Kelley, and realizes the guy he's trying to tackle is bigger than he is? I imagine it like when Bobby Boucher is trying to tackle without using his tackling fuel.
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311Hog

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2017, 02:41:13 pm »

Pilsbury Throwboy - greatest non Razorback player to ever lace them up.
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GuvHog

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2017, 02:46:18 pm »

Yes they do. The NG is essentially a special type of DT. A DT plays anywhere from a 0 to a 4 technique with a NG playing from a 0 to a 1 technique. You often see it listed as a nose tackle in the 3-4 because it is a DT lined up right on the nose.

Most 3-4 Defensive coaches refer to that position as NG but some do refer to it as NT or Nose Tackle so you do have a good point.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2017, 03:39:27 pm »

Could you align that data a little better, Benny? ;)
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2017, 06:23:04 pm »

Could you align that data a little better, Benny? ;)

ISWYDT ;)
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2017, 06:24:13 pm »

Could you align that data a little better, Benny? ;)

Though I really do wish I could. When I go to modify it, it lines up, but when I hit save and see it in the monitor, it is misaligned. I can't fix what I can't see when I'm trying to fix it. :(
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2017, 06:25:17 pm »

The good news is though that our roster more or less looks to be where our coaching staff wants it weight wise. Nothing quantitative, but looks like fewer significant changes this year compared to years past.
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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2017, 06:28:38 pm »

Though I really do wish I could. When I go to modify it, it lines up, but when I hit save and see it in the monitor, it is misaligned. I can't fix what I can't see when I'm trying to fix it. :(

Try going to your original post, click on modify, align that data so it appears aligned, then click on preview and continue to do the same over and over until everything is aligned in the Preview. But when you modify, reduce all of the keyed data to the smallest font size and align it under that font size....but I am sure you can figure this out. It's what I have to do for you guys to make it all fit.

But truly, I was just kidding since you have been so good as to give me a rash about the data that I have posted in the past. ;) That said, it really could be easier to read.
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oldrazorband

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2017, 06:40:07 pm »

On my iPhone I hit reader view and everything lined up. Hope that helps.
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2017, 08:23:14 am »

Yes they do. The NG is essentially a special type of DT. A DT plays anywhere from a 0 to a 4 technique with a NG playing from a 0 to a 1 technique. You often see it listed as a nose tackle in the 3-4 because it is a DT lined up right on the nose.
FYI true nose guards hate being called defensive tackles. why? I couldn't answer that. Just one of those things
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ArkanSWAG

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2017, 01:14:22 pm »

This would look really nice in a Google Doc that everyone can view. I can start working on it if anyone is interested?
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2017, 02:37:17 pm »

FYI true nose guards hate being called defensive tackles. why? I couldn't answer that. Just one of those things

Probably because the nose guard is more difficult than a standard DT. 

Similarly, don't mix up caver and spelunker. A caver cover is the type of person exploring caves that's gets called upon to rescue the spelunker.

Some disc golf players get upset if you call what they throw a frisbee too.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2018, 10:04:39 pm »

Fall 13-Spring 14 - Fall 14- Spring 15-Fall 2015-Spring 2016-Summer 2016-Fall 2016-Fall 2017-Spring 2018

Adcock:                                                          288-279
Agim                                          288-285-289-286-280
Allen        200- 215-212-210-210-208-210-209-215-n/a
Barkley                                                           175-171
Barnes                                                            172-171
Bell            n/a-n/a-n/a-225-253-261-260 -252-258-247
Berry                                                                     189
Blair                                                                       197
Boateng                                            -183-183-190-185
Brasuell                                             215-218-202-195
Brown                                                             175-181
Calloway                                                         188-183
Cantrell     n/a- n/a- n/a-248-250-252-261-269-264-253
Capps                                         320-307-309-300-301
Carter                                    232-???-???-241-239-239
Clary                                                                 286-285
Clenin                                                              300-297
Coley:       177-191-201-202-202-209-209 -214-211-n/a
Collins                                                              240-244
Cornelius    175-192-201-195-202-211-212-212-212-207
Curl                                                                 193-188
Curtis                                                              181-176
Dalton         n/a- n/a-n/a-197-197-204-190-190-193-188
Decker                                  267-n/a-249-249-253-???
DePrato                                                            222-235
Edwards                                              203-205-212-215
Enlow                                                  203-200-202-195
Eugene        n/a-222-236-236-235-234-235-235-240-n/a
Fisher                                                               234-238
Froholdt       n/a-n/a- n/a-280-299-309-314-318-311-315
Gibson        n/a- 315-343-337-330-343-347-344-333-345
Gragg          n/a -n/a-250-255-255-253-253-254-254-231
Greenlaw     n/a -n/a-n/a- 206-222-231-227-226-229-226
Guidry                                           286-289-294-279-304
Gulledge                                                            175-166
Gunter                                           233-230-232-232-234
Hale                                                     220-217-219-228
J. Hall          n/a -235-245-261-270-270-260-266-263-253
T. Hall                                                  297-296-296-297
Hammonds                                     195-197-197-195-199
Hannah        n/a -301-292-288-293-286-275-282-305-???
D. Harris                                        240-253-255-242-239
J. Harris              n/a -201-212-223-220-224-235-221-???
Hayden                                                               191-192   
Hays                                                     290-294-298-299
Hedlund         n/a-170-170-170-165-165-172-171-164-n/a
Heinrich                                          295-290-295-293-n/a
Hyatt                                                                 188-192
Hobbs                                                   213-220-220-207
Horn                                                                  329-299
B. Jackson    n/a- 334-334-324-325-332-333-335-339-n/a
C. Jackson     n/a- n/a-n/a-295-303-302-302-300-298-299
Ke. Jackson    n/a- n/a-n/a-240-249-250-252-255-253-270
Ko. Jackson                                                         214-211
Jean-Baptiste                                   220-228-231-231-230
B. Johnson       n/a-n/a-n/a-185-175-184-188-193-185-169
H. Johnson                                       250-248-248-256-261
J. Jones                                           180-182-184-185-173
Keaton                                     174-??? -175-183-183-179
Kelly                                               260-256-258-268-263
Kern                                                            240-245-236
Kraus             n/a-260-252-234-235-238-248-252-248-n/a
LaFrance                                         235-254-255-239-242
Liddell           n/-a-193-205-209-210-210-217-210-211-n/a
Limpert                                                         176-180-170
Lindsey                                                         184-194-198
Lucas              n/a-185-189-203-189-192-192-190-195-185
Madden                                      226-???-226-230-225-213
Malone                                             295-294-296-304-291
Marshall                                          -270-293-299-310-307
Martin                                                                  219-219
Mazza                                                                  173-???
McClellion                                                              172-173
McClure                                                          219-n/a-222
McPherson       n/a-210-205-207-205-210-210-208-192-???
Merrick             n/a-n/a-350-335-355-329-326-327-322-345
Miller                                   193-193-194-199-197-201-202
Minchew                                                                      182
Montrois                                                                ???-181
Morgan                                                                 220-230
Morris                                                                   199-199
Munson                                                                 203-207
Nance                                                                   182-166
Nichols                                                                        267
O'Grady            n/a-n/a-n/a-230-240-246-248-251-253-248
Pace                                                                            233
Patton                                                                  236-258
Paul                                                                     205-???
Pennington                                                            210-220
Pettway             n/a-n/a-n/a-190-205-205-218-216-220-224 
Phillips                                                     222-232-224-221
Pool                                                                             214
Porter                                                                    241-251
Proctor                                                           211-212-208
Pulley                 n/a-n/a n/a-197-210-194-195-198-196-199
Purifoy                                                                          237
Ragnow            n/a-292-300-311-312-314-312-319-317-n/a
P. Ramirez                                         275-289-299-308-n/a
S. Ramirez              180-172-195-202-202-201-198-198-195
Ramsey                    n/a-210-222-220-n/a-230-232-228-227
Raulerson                                                        301-313-n/a
G. Richardson                                                         239-247
K. Richardson   152-161-161-165-175-170-172-178-185-185
Roesler            232-246-250-250-255-252-255-256-252-n/a
Rogers              n/a-n/a-318-312-312-303-306-306-309-n/a
Silver                                                                    235-n/a
M. Smith                                            197-196-195-202-204
TJ Smith            n/a-n/a-n/a- 281-283-284-280-285-290-306
Sone                                                 -???-272-277-272-n/a-congrats FOTH
Stephens                                                                     196
Stewart            n/a-n/a- n/a-190-165-163-163-164-162-158
Storey              n/a- n/a-211-211-211-216-215-212-212-220
Surrell                                                                          288
Taylor                                                -???-???-245-258-252
Toliver              165-192-186-186-186-181-184-185-185-n/a
Tutt                                                                 177-179-171
Wagner                                                                   311-275
Walker                                                210-207-208-215-213
Wallace              305-315-322-316-317-326-332-335-337-323
Warnock                                                                  190-???
Warren                                                                    181-179
Watts                 n/a- 260-288-295-304-n/a-292-293-309-311
Whaley                                                210-217-216-216-215
Woods                                                                           186
D. Williams                                                               220-???
M. Williams                                                               218-224
Mc. Williams                                                                    210
Young                                                                      202-202
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 12:17:04 am by bennyl08 »
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2018, 10:53:18 pm »

Still a lot of missing players from the roster. However, we are starting to see some trends already.

Most of these changes I can get behind. However, I can promise you that those WR's that have been dropped down to the 160's are going to be thrown around like rag dolls by SEC DB's. And I'm not just talking about Bama's DB's, but vandy's even. Hopefully this is a function of them improving their conditioning as they work towards being back in the 180+ range while maintaining that conditioning. Otherwise, heck, even Colorado State's DB's are going to outweigh our WR's by 20 pounds.

Similarly at the OL.Again, dropping a few pounds to get more into the 295-315 range? Totally makes sense. However, making Wagner go from 311 to 270's? Over 30 pounds? One, that can't be healthy for the player. Two, who's he going to block? I mean, sure, if Morris just expects him to get to the second level and take on LB's, that makes sense. Needs to be able to move in space and 275 is good enough to block those guys. However, does Morris still think he's coaching at Tulsa or SMU? There are DE's who are blazing fast that weigh more than Wagner. Doesn't matter how quick he is when they'll be able to just lift him up and throw him backwards onto the qb...

Looking at Clemson and Auburn which are probably the two closest ideals for our program under Morris, their WR's are way bigger than ours and none of them have OL players that small save for maybe a walkon, and even then, only underclass walkons.

To reiterate, these are spring weights in a brand new system. Go back earlier in this thread and even with Bielema, when he came here you saw players dropping 10-15 pounds for spring ball as they worked off all the fat they had on them from Smiley/Petrino and then added muscle over the summer. Entirely possible that Morris is trying to act similarly. Shedding off the muscle that these players have until they can maintain their conditioning and then working on adding that muscle back while keeping their level of conditioning.

Further, while frankly I'm shocked at how many players have lost way too much weight IMO at least if the season were to start tomorrow, most players it seems did change weights more in line with what somebody would expect. Take Cornelius for example. Going from 212 to 207 makes sense. That isn't going to make any changes to speed, but that can be enough to improve conditioning for a player.

Speaking of, for those in the "speed" camp, these weight changes have very little to do with speed. a 5'10+ receiver shouldn't be any slower at 180 than they are at 160. Not at the college level. If you can't carry 20 pounds in that weight range  in a way that doesn't slow you down, you aren't very athletic. While yes you can bulk up too much, ask yourself why a 6'1 110 pound person will lose a sprint every time? They don't have the engines. You cut out weight from the car seats and stuff and that can make you faster. However, if you put in a stronger engine, even though it weighs more, you can go faster or at least offset the weight gain. You take somebody like a Myles Garrett or a Vernon Davis who are freakishly fast while carrying a lot of weight. Or Knile Davis running a 4.29 at nearly 230 pounds. You take Knile down to 190 pounds and he isn't going to run a 4.12. At best, the lost weight would offset the lost power and at worst, he could be slower since he has less muscle to drive him forward. That's a big factor between a HS player and a college player. Plenty of fast guys at 150-160 pounds out there, but that's where they max out. You bulk them up to 180 and they can't sustain their speed anymore. A college athlete, otoh, can still be just as fast.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2018, 07:58:09 am »


Similarly at the OL.Again, dropping a few pounds to get more into the 295-315 range? Totally makes sense. However, making Wagner go from 311 to 270's? Over 30 pounds? One, that can't be healthy for the player. Two, who's he going to block? I mean, sure, if Morris just expects him to get to the second level and take on LB's, that makes sense. Needs to be able to move in space and 275 is good enough to block those guys. However, does Morris still think he's coaching at Tulsa or SMU? There are DE's who are blazing fast that weigh more than Wagner. Doesn't matter how quick he is when they'll be able to just lift him up and throw him backwards onto the qb...

Looking at Clemson and Auburn which are probably the two closest ideals for our program under Morris, their WR's are way bigger than ours and none of them have OL players that small save for maybe a walkon, and even then, only underclass walkons.

To reiterate, these are spring weights in a brand new system. Go back earlier in this thread and even with Bielema, when he came here you saw players dropping 10-15 pounds for spring ball as they worked off all the fat they had on them from Smiley/Petrino and then added muscle over the summer. Entirely possible that Morris is trying to act similarly. Shedding off the muscle that these players have until they can maintain their conditioning and then working on adding that muscle back while keeping their level of conditioning.

Further, while frankly I'm shocked at how many players have lost way too much weight IMO at least if the season were to start tomorrow, most players it seems did change weights more in line with what somebody would expect. Take Cornelius for example. Going from 212 to 207 makes sense. That isn't going to make any changes to speed, but that can be enough to improve conditioning for a player.


You probably pretty much answered your own suggestion/projection with that bolded statement. I wouldn't worry about weights right now, it is early in the new process. If any player dropped 30 lbs. on our O-Line just over the Jan-Feb work out time frame, I would suggest that they probably needed to lose that non-contributing weight to begin with. This same player would have time to add back 20 pounds of muscle before the opening of fall camp.
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LRrazorback

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2018, 08:27:11 am »

Still a lot of missing players from the roster. However, we are starting to see some trends already.

Most of these changes I can get behind. However, I can promise you that those WR's that have been dropped down to the 160's are going to be thrown around like rag dolls by SEC DB's. And I'm not just talking about Bama's DB's, but vandy's even. Hopefully this is a function of them improving their conditioning as they work towards being back in the 180+ range while maintaining that conditioning. Otherwise, heck, even Colorado State's DB's are going to outweigh our WR's by 20 pounds.

Similarly at the OL.Again, dropping a few pounds to get more into the 295-315 range? Totally makes sense. However, making Wagner go from 311 to 270's? Over 30 pounds? One, that can't be healthy for the player. Two, who's he going to block? I mean, sure, if Morris just expects him to get to the second level and take on LB's, that makes sense. Needs to be able to move in space and 275 is good enough to block those guys. However, does Morris still think he's coaching at Tulsa or SMU? There are DE's who are blazing fast that weigh more than Wagner. Doesn't matter how quick he is when they'll be able to just lift him up and throw him backwards onto the qb...

Looking at Clemson and Auburn which are probably the two closest ideals for our program under Morris, their WR's are way bigger than ours and none of them have OL players that small save for maybe a walkon, and even then, only underclass walkons.

To reiterate, these are spring weights in a brand new system. Go back earlier in this thread and even with Bielema, when he came here you saw players dropping 10-15 pounds for spring ball as they worked off all the fat they had on them from Smiley/Petrino and then added muscle over the summer. Entirely possible that Morris is trying to act similarly. Shedding off the muscle that these players have until they can maintain their conditioning and then working on adding that muscle back while keeping their level of conditioning.

Further, while frankly I'm shocked at how many players have lost way too much weight IMO at least if the season were to start tomorrow, most players it seems did change weights more in line with what somebody would expect. Take Cornelius for example. Going from 212 to 207 makes sense. That isn't going to make any changes to speed, but that can be enough to improve conditioning for a player.

Speaking of, for those in the "speed" camp, these weight changes have very little to do with speed. a 5'10+ receiver shouldn't be any slower at 180 than they are at 160. Not at the college level. If you can't carry 20 pounds in that weight range  in a way that doesn't slow you down, you aren't very athletic. While yes you can bulk up too much, ask yourself why a 6'1 110 pound person will lose a sprint every time? They don't have the engines. You cut out weight from the car seats and stuff and that can make you faster. However, if you put in a stronger engine, even though it weighs more, you can go faster or at least offset the weight gain. You take somebody like a Myles Garrett or a Vernon Davis who are freakishly fast while carrying a lot of weight. Or Knile Davis running a 4.29 at nearly 230 pounds. You take Knile down to 190 pounds and he isn't going to run a 4.12. At best, the lost weight would offset the lost power and at worst, he could be slower since he has less muscle to drive him forward. That's a big factor between a HS player and a college player. Plenty of fast guys at 150-160 pounds out there, but that's where they max out. You bulk them up to 180 and they can't sustain their speed anymore. A college athlete, otoh, can still be just as fast.

You seem to question this staff a lot?  I take it you're not a fan of CCM or his being hired?
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little pigee

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2018, 08:50:02 am »

Thanks for the thoughts.  You got the creds to back this shite up?  How DO you know all this, Dr.?  Surely you have at least a PHD in quantum physics to know k. Davis' speed at 190 lbs.?  Wish I was that smart!
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greenie

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2018, 11:02:13 am »

Interesting info on weight changes. I’m really anxious to see this team on the field...hoping that they look more athletic at every position, particularly in the trenches.  I know that a dominant OL is always desired, but I think it’s less important in CCM’s style of offense.

I agree with your comments on light-weight receivers. We’ve got at least one that is very light, but saw significant playing time last year.  CCM made a comment about wanting bigger receivers, so it’ll be interesting to see who gets on the field this year.

IMHO, the effect of weight on speed is hard to predict. Depends on the individual. I do think, however, that there is a strong correlation between bulk and stamina, and stamina is certainly a priority for a fast-paced offense.

Once again, thanks for the effort, benny.  Good talking points and research.
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nwahogfan1

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2018, 11:30:27 am »

I have watched as much video as I could find on practices and it looks like we are faster and quicker.  I hope it is true.  I have the opinion that Tru is finding each kids ideal weight and pushes him to reach it so he can be the most effective on the field.  I am sure Tru has instructions from Morris to do just that. 

Sure we need bigger WRs but it comes with recruiting and not with putting on fat. I doubt any WR will stay at 160 lbs or a OLM will stay under 300 lbs unless that is his ideal weight.   I think agility, flexibility and elusiveness out weighs added pounds.   I think OLM and DLM should have ideal weight also whether than just getting Bigger.   I love these guys to be the first to get out of their stance and make contact on the other side of the LOS to cause disruptions. 

What I like most about Morris past coaching is his willing to vary his play calling or  schemes to the talent he has on the team until he can recruit what he needs.  I believe he had to do this in HS and especilly at SMU where I am sure most teams had better talent. 

I will give him the benefit of the doubt just like I did CBB until proven different.     
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2018, 12:43:19 pm »

You seem to question this staff a lot?  I take it you're not a fan of CCM or his being hired?

I think the hire is a risky one. I genuinely think he can be a guy that makes everybody forget Petrino because he has so much success here. However, I also think he could just as easily be a guy who ends up making Bielema look like an amazing coach in comparison.

For every argument that he can be a great hire, there's an equally compelling argument as to why he could be a terrible hire. For every reason he could be a bad hire, there's an equally compelling reason he could be amazing.

So, there are too many red flags for me to be excited by the hire. However, there are too many green flags to think it was a bad hire as well. So, this puts me in the wait and see category. Is he good, is he bad? Time will tell and IMO my posts reflect that. For every bad thing I say I also point out something good. However, with most of hogville in the honeymoon stage where he can do no wrong such that a balanced take appears sharply negative in comparison.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2018, 01:03:50 pm »

Thanks for the thoughts.  You got the creds to back this shite up?  How DO you know all this, Dr.?  Surely you have at least a PHD in quantum physics to know k. Davis' speed at 190 lbs.?  Wish I was that smart!

It's a PhD, not a PHD, unless you are trying to say i have a pretty huge D or something. Second, quantum physics isn't going to  be very useful for this subject. Third, I don't have a PhD, but yeah, I do actually have a masters in applied physics. For topics like this, my biggest expertise is that I listen to those who are actually experts in the field. Nutritional experts, biomechanical experts, professional football scouts, strength and conditioning experts couples with a lot of experience myself in paying attention to the scouting aspects from HS to the NFL.

The numbers speak for themselves. Go look up the combine numbers from HS laser timed combines and compare those players to when they compete at the NFL combine. They almost always weigh significantly more but aren't significantly slower and some are even faster.

They should all be significantly slower with the more muscle mass if increased mass inherently slowed you down. They aren't, so clearly it doesn't. If the added mass was fat, yeah, that'll do nothing but slow you down. If you are bulking up your biceps and chest, your glory muscles, that's not going to help you run either and will also slow you down. However, a good S&C coach can add weight that won't slow you down and can even help you be faster. You see it time and time again. Naturally there is a limit to that and such a weight is a players optimum level for speed. At which point the only reason to go above that weight is if speed isn't the single most important factor. Say a OL player for example. They aren't going to be running 40 yards down the field very often. Strength is the most important thing for them followed by quickness and flexibility.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2018, 01:07:55 pm »

You probably pretty much answered your own suggestion/projection with that bolded statement. I wouldn't worry about weights right now, it is early in the new process. If any player dropped 30 lbs. on our O-Line just over the Jan-Feb work out time frame, I would suggest that they probably needed to lose that non-contributing weight to begin with. This same player would have time to add back 20 pounds of muscle before the opening of fall camp.

I'm not worried, just skeptical. I hope and recognize the strong possibility of this being case, but this is a show me world where actions speak louder than words. I won't be surprised at all if they do bulk back up through the spring and summer while maintaining their conditioning, but I wouldn't be surprised either if this sort of thing is the end goal. Time will tell.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2018, 01:15:31 pm »

It's a PhD, not a PHD, unless you are trying to say i have a pretty huge D or something. Second, quantum physics isn't going to  be very useful for this subject. Third, I don't have a PhD, but yeah, I do actually have a masters in applied physics. For topics like this, my biggest expertise is that I listen to those who are actually experts in the field. Nutritional experts, biomechanical experts, professional football scouts, strength and conditioning experts couples with a lot of experience myself in paying attention to the scouting aspects from HS to the NFL.

The numbers speak for themselves. Go look up the combine numbers from HS laser timed combines and compare those players to when they compete at the NFL combine. They almost always weigh significantly more but aren't significantly slower and some are even faster.

They should all be significantly slower with the more muscle mass if increased mass inherently slowed you down. They aren't, so clearly it doesn't. If the added mass was fat, yeah, that'll do nothing but slow you down. If you are bulking up your biceps and chest, your glory muscles, that's not going to help you run either and will also slow you down. However, a good S&C coach can add weight that won't slow you down and can even help you be faster. You see it time and time again. Naturally there is a limit to that and such a weight is a players optimum level for speed. At which point the only reason to go above that weight is if speed isn't the single most important factor. Say a OL player for example. They aren't going to be running 40 yards down the field very often. Strength is the most important thing for them followed by quickness and flexibility.

I'm going to disagree on this one point. I think strength and flexibility are important traits for an O-Lineman, but I personally think that extreme quickness is the more important trait, followed closely by excellent practiced technique, strength and flexibility. I like a kid that can beat his opponent to the punch and in doing so, perhaps gain the advantage of leverage through excellent technique. Otherwise all you have is mass and strength on mass and strength and who is the better athlete will generally win those battles. Quickness off the ball can not only render you in better position to make a play, but it can also help you overcome a larger and stronger opponent in most cases.

Where a problem occurs is when you encounter the "freak" athlete on defense who is not only bigger and stronger (or at least as strong), but just as quick or quicker. You have to adjust your offensive scheme when you encounter these types of individuals and heaven forbid that you run into a defense that is comprised of 6-7 of these types of athletes at varying positions. You can scheme around a few, it is far more difficult when you encounter a team that is better at most every position than that of your team.

In those instances you are depending upon playing disciplined football in all aspects of the game, hoping for a mistake by your opponent and then being in a position (through disciplined play) of being in a position to take advantage of the break that has been offered up to you. Miss out on those opportunities and you can get beaten by 21 or more.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 01:57:29 pm by MuskogeeHogFan »
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little pigee

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2018, 10:38:07 pm »

It's a PhD, not a PHD, unless you are trying to say i have a pretty huge D or something. Second, quantum physics isn't going to  be very useful for this subject. Third, I don't have a PhD, but yeah, I do actually have a masters in applied physics. For topics like this, my biggest expertise is that I listen to those who are actually experts in the field. Nutritional experts, biomechanical experts, professional football scouts, strength and conditioning experts couples with a lot of experience myself in paying attention to the scouting aspects from HS to the NFL.

The numbers speak for themselves. Go look up the combine numbers from HS laser timed combines and compare those players to when they compete at the NFL combine. They almost always weigh significantly more but aren't significantly slower and some are even faster.

They should all be significantly slower with the more muscle mass if increased mass inherently slowed you down. They aren't, so clearly it doesn't. If the added mass was fat, yeah, that'll do nothing but slow you down. If you are bulking up your biceps and chest, your glory muscles, that's not going to help you run either and will also slow you down. However, a good S&C coach can add weight that won't slow you down and can even help you be faster. You see it time and time again. Naturally there is a limit to that and such a weight is a players optimum level for speed. At which point the only reason to go above that weight is if speed isn't the single most important factor. Say a OL player for example. They aren't going to be running 40 yards down the field very often. Strength is the most important thing for them followed by quickness and flexibility.
  I stand corrected.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2018, 09:12:23 pm »

I'm going to disagree on this one point. I think strength and flexibility are important traits for an O-Lineman, but I personally think that extreme quickness is the more important trait, followed closely by excellent practiced technique, strength and flexibility. I like a kid that can beat his opponent to the punch and in doing so, perhaps gain the advantage of leverage through excellent technique. Otherwise all you have is mass and strength on mass and strength and who is the better athlete will generally win those battles. Quickness off the ball can not only render you in better position to make a play, but it can also help you overcome a larger and stronger opponent in most cases.

Where a problem occurs is when you encounter the "freak" athlete on defense who is not only bigger and stronger (or at least as strong), but just as quick or quicker. You have to adjust your offensive scheme when you encounter these types of individuals and heaven forbid that you run into a defense that is comprised of 6-7 of these types of athletes at varying positions. You can scheme around a few, it is far more difficult when you encounter a team that is better at most every position than that of your team.

In those instances you are depending upon playing disciplined football in all aspects of the game, hoping for a mistake by your opponent and then being in a position (through disciplined play) of being in a position to take advantage of the break that has been offered up to you. Miss out on those opportunities and you can get beaten by 21 or more.

Assuming all other factors are at least adequate, yeah, I'd take a 290 pound OL with adequate strength and extreme quickness over a player who's 330 pounds with extreme strength and everything else is just adequate.

However, the above scenario has a huge built in assumption. In terms of overall importance, ask yourself this. Which offensive line would you rather have? (Assume both groups have the same abilities between the ear, i.e. they have been taught the same technique, same "want to", etc... and for comparison sake, lets let them both be the same height with the same arm reach). Offensive line A is a group of 5 guys who weigh 130 pounds but are extremely quick. Upper body strong enough to say bench press an open bar, and legs strong enough to move themselves quickly, but not exactly pushing something else heavy kind of strong. Offensive line B is a group of 370 pound power lifters who are strong as perhaps literal oxes but their forty time is a 7 second or worse. Their 3 cone drill times in at 10 seconds, etc...

I think it's pretty clear that the latter group would be a much better OL group than the former although in reality, none of those 5 players would likely get a football scholarship, at least not to a P5 school. However, at the overall level, strength is the primary importance with an OL player same way that arm strength is the first and foremost quality in a qb. Sure, once the arm strength is up to an adequate level to make the throws you need him or her to make, then yeah, plenty of other quality become more important, but a qb who is simply incapable of throwing the ball more than 10 yards is just never going to work out, regardless of how accurate those 10 yard passes are, how good a leader, how well they can read the defense etc... You have to have that one pre-requisite before anything else matters.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2018, 06:02:20 am »

Assuming all other factors are at least adequate, yeah, I'd take a 290 pound OL with adequate strength and extreme quickness over a player who's 330 pounds with extreme strength and everything else is just adequate.

However, the above scenario has a huge built in assumption. In terms of overall importance, ask yourself this. Which offensive line would you rather have? (Assume both groups have the same abilities between the ear, i.e. they have been taught the same technique, same "want to", etc... and for comparison sake, lets let them both be the same height with the same arm reach). Offensive line A is a group of 5 guys who weigh 130 pounds but are extremely quick. Upper body strong enough to say bench press an open bar, and legs strong enough to move themselves quickly, but not exactly pushing something else heavy kind of strong. Offensive line B is a group of 370 pound power lifters who are strong as perhaps literal oxes but their forty time is a 7 second or worse. Their 3 cone drill times in at 10 seconds, etc...

I think it's pretty clear that the latter group would be a much better OL group than the former although in reality, none of those 5 players would likely get a football scholarship, at least not to a P5 school. However, at the overall level, strength is the primary importance with an OL player same way that arm strength is the first and foremost quality in a qb. Sure, once the arm strength is up to an adequate level to make the throws you need him or her to make, then yeah, plenty of other quality become more important, but a qb who is simply incapable of throwing the ball more than 10 yards is just never going to work out, regardless of how accurate those 10 yard passes are, how good a leader, how well they can read the defense etc... You have to have that one pre-requisite before anything else matters.

I wouldn't want an OL in college that averaged 370 pounds anymore than I would want an O-Line that averaged 130 lbs.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2018, 12:30:25 pm »

I wouldn't want an OL in college that averaged 370 pounds anymore than I would want an O-Line that averaged 130 lbs.

Nobody would, but that wasn't the question. The question was which was more important overall.

Again, relatively speaking, so long as the player still has some initial threshold of strength, having exceptional quickness is something I'd value over exceptional strength. However, overall, IMO, strength is the most important aspect first and foremost. Hence why the 370 powerlifting OL group would be what most people would choose over the 130 pound quicksters for the OL.

So, which one of those would you choose? Do you truly believe quickness to be the most important factor, or do you actually think that strength is the first most important thing and that quickness is only more important on a relative scale?
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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2018, 12:32:47 pm »

Nobody would, but that wasn't the question. The question was which was more important overall.

Again, relatively speaking, so long as the player still has some initial threshold of strength, having exceptional quickness is something I'd value over exceptional strength. However, overall, IMO, strength is the most important aspect first and foremost. Hence why the 370 powerlifting OL group would be what most people would choose over the 130 pound quicksters for the OL.

So, which one of those would you choose? Do you truly believe quickness to be the most important factor, or do you actually think that strength is the first most important thing and that quickness is only more important on a relative scale?

For the purposes of a relevant discussion, neither is important.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2018, 01:20:49 pm »

For the purposes of a relevant discussion, neither is important.

Whats funny is you literally just answered the question with this post, albeit implicitly. Why you can't just man up and explicitly answer the question is beyond me. Not attacking you and I'm not even saying you are wrong in your answer, only that we are coming from two different frames of reference.

You say neither is important but just last year alone, I can point you to 3 power 5 offensive lineman who are 370+, and nearly twenty division 1 players who are 360+ so clearly, that end of the spectrum is indeed relevant, especially with two IMG academy students who are 370+ with offers from the likes of Bama and LSU to play on the OL... There have been players such as Isaiah Thompson who couldn't even break a 6.0 second forty at the NFL combine, and that's somebody who still got an invite. ~90% of OL players won't get an invite, so that there are some big guys who have had scholarships that ran a 7 second forty sure seems likely to me. Though I don't care to try and scour individual school pro days.

What isn't "relevant" in your eyes must then be the 130 pound players for the OL. Which is where you really answer the question. You think even talking about such a player on the OL isn't a relevant conversation in the first place. Why? Because they don't have the requisite strength. Which goes to show that a player who doesn't have the requisite strength isn't even relevant in the first place suggesting that strength is the most important aspect.
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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2018, 05:33:51 pm »

Whats funny is you literally just answered the question with this post, albeit implicitly. Why you can't just man up and explicitly answer the question is beyond me. Not attacking you and I'm not even saying you are wrong in your answer, only that we are coming from two different frames of reference.

You say neither is important but just last year alone, I can point you to 3 power 5 offensive lineman who are 370+, and nearly twenty division 1 players who are 360+ so clearly, that end of the spectrum is indeed relevant, especially with two IMG academy students who are 370+ with offers from the likes of Bama and LSU to play on the OL... There have been players such as Isaiah Thompson who couldn't even break a 6.0 second forty at the NFL combine, and that's somebody who still got an invite. ~90% of OL players won't get an invite, so that there are some big guys who have had scholarships that ran a 7 second forty sure seems likely to me. Though I don't care to try and scour individual school pro days.

What isn't "relevant" in your eyes must then be the 130 pound players for the OL. Which is where you really answer the question. You think even talking about such a player on the OL isn't a relevant conversation in the first place. Why? Because they don't have the requisite strength. Which goes to show that a player who doesn't have the requisite strength isn't even relevant in the first place suggesting that strength is the most important aspect.



I'm going to disagree on this one point. I think strength and flexibility are important traits for an O-Lineman, but I personally think that extreme quickness is the more important trait, followed closely by excellent practiced technique, strength and flexibility. I like a kid that can beat his opponent to the punch and in doing so, perhaps gain the advantage of leverage through excellent technique. Otherwise all you have is mass and strength on mass and strength and who is the better athlete will generally win those battles. Quickness off the ball can not only render you in better position to make a play, but it can also help you overcome a larger and stronger opponent in most cases.

Where a problem occurs is when you encounter the "freak" athlete on defense who is not only bigger and stronger (or at least as strong), but just as quick or quicker. You have to adjust your offensive scheme when you encounter these types of individuals and heaven forbid that you run into a defense that is comprised of 6-7 of these types of athletes at varying positions. You can scheme around a few, it is far more difficult when you encounter a team that is better at most every position than that of your team.

In those instances you are depending upon playing disciplined football in all aspects of the game, hoping for a mistake by your opponent and then being in a position (through disciplined play) of being in a position to take advantage of the break that has been offered up to you. Miss out on those opportunities and you can get beaten by 21 or more.

"Man up"? Lol, whatever Benny. Get a life.

Here's what I said earlier in the thread. ^

No where did I say that size and strength wasn't important, I just said that along with that, extreme quickness and excellent practiced technique were things that could give O-linemen an advantage over a bigger player, maybe even a stronger player, except when it comes to the bigger, stronger player who is just as quick and just as practiced in their technique.

That concept shouldn't be difficult to figure out and it has nothing to do with a silly comparison between 130 lb O-Linemen and 370 lb O-Linemen.
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bennyl08

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2018, 06:34:04 pm »



"Man up"? Lol, whatever Benny. Get a life.

Here's what I said earlier in the thread. ^

No where did I say that size and strength wasn't important, I just said that along with that, extreme quickness and excellent practiced technique were things that could give O-linemen an advantage over a bigger player, maybe even a stronger player, except when it comes to the bigger, stronger player who is just as quick and just as practiced in their technique.

That concept shouldn't be difficult to figure out and it has nothing to do with a silly comparison between 130 lb O-Linemen and 370 lb O-Linemen.

Jeez, you seem to just like to argue for argue sake without making any points and seem to forget what you say in the process despite even quoting your own post.

You said you disagreed that strength was the most important factor in an OL player. Those are your words. I pointed out that we were probably coming from two different frames of reference, even mentioning on multiple times that if we assume at least adequate strength, then yes, I'd prefer extreme quickness to extreme strength and agreeing with you, while pointing out that to say quickness is more important first requires the assumption about adequate strength.

No where did I say that you think strength isn't important. However, you did say that quickness is the most important. I point out the flaw in that logic and you get flustered and upset despite me giving you and out pointing out that from a different reference frame, I actually agree with you, but pointing out that when you say "I'm going to disagree" I'm talking about overall without any any first assumptions.

I appreciate your concern for whether or not I have a life, but trust me, Oregon is way to beautiful a state to not have a life. Spent the weekend cross country skiing in the cascades. Beautiful stuff. My SO's at a big conference so I do have some extra time right now.
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LRrazorback

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Re: Roster Comparisons
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2018, 06:57:20 pm »

I think the hire is a risky one. I genuinely think he can be a guy that makes everybody forget Petrino because he has so much success here. However, I also think he could just as easily be a guy who ends up making Bielema look like an amazing coach in comparison.

For every argument that he can be a great hire, there's an equally compelling argument as to why he could be a terrible hire. For every reason he could be a bad hire, there's an equally compelling reason he could be amazing.

So, there are too many red flags for me to be excited by the hire. However, there are too many green flags to think it was a bad hire as well. So, this puts me in the wait and see category. Is he good, is he bad? Time will tell and IMO my posts reflect that. For every bad thing I say I also point out something good. However, with most of hogville in the honeymoon stage where he can do no wrong such that a balanced take appears sharply negative in comparison.

Know this
When discussing coaches-if a head coach truly pays attention to 1) Details and 2) Discipline, most of the time he will succeed. These are the two most important factors when looking for successful coaches. CCM seems to be very big on both of these, especially compared to Bret.  It's why CBP was successful here, among many others. It can happen here but these two ingredients must be prevelant.
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