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Ground War in Iraq / Syria

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Old Tusk:

I curious what still on active duty think the troops will react to another protracted war would be?

The Chief:

Ironically, as much as I don't want to go back into any type of war, I miss it.  There are lots of replacements in platoon leadership and below who "missed" their chance to deploy.  The infantry platoon ranks are now 60% or so who have never deployed.

Us "old timers" with at least 10 years in have had our fill.  But, we don't really like garrison life either.  It's a strange, uneasy feeling. 




Old Tusk:

Always creates a rush when deployment is coming.

LSUFan:

Americans will continue to die as we sit upon the largest and most powerful arsenal in the world.

Patton is spinning in his grave.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 07, 2014, 07:38:05 pm ---Always creates a rush when deployment is coming.

--- End quote ---

For me, is not impending deployments that create the rush. It's the getting shot at, hearing and feeling rockets land within 50 feet, and killing the enemy that I get off on.

It isn't right, I know. But it's the truth.

Bob Slydell:

Missed enough of my kid's lives in that crap hole of a country.  But I wonder what effect going back into Iraq would have on the current drawdown. 

Old Tusk:

The older I've gotten the more war averse I become. Tired of seeing people die for no purpose.

FaytownHog:

I'm all for blowing up all the stuff we left over there and should have blown up before we left in the first place and all for blowing up their stuff from the sky, but not for boots on the ground. ISIS wants a ground war bc they can get to some of us on the ground. They can't touch our planes and know they will continue to just get blown up if that's the only way we choose to fight.

YankHog:

It doesn't matter to me either way, I just follow the orders of the CIC, makes me sick to see what they are doing but I just do not see the current administration putting any more boots on the ground.  i'm of the same thinking as Chief, although i've deployed more than enough times and spent too much time in Iraq, when you are not deployed  and there are soldiers in combat, you feel guilty for not being there (or I do anyways). 

Old Tusk:

The problem is we will be no more successful than we have been in the last 50 years.

Tejas_Pete:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 08, 2014, 04:35:44 pm ---The older I've gotten the more war averse I become. Tired of seeing people die for no purpose.

--- End quote ---

This. I have no desire to ever go back to Iraq.

YankHog:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 09, 2014, 02:11:38 pm ---The problem is we will be no more successful than we have been in the last 50 years.

--- End quote ---
I know what you're saying but you're defining isuccess politically not militarily, I agree with you by the way but that's not up to us, we just go where and when we are told, I do think we should put boots on the ground to deal only with the ISIS threat and immediately pull them back out..as much as the rest of the middle east will groan and say yes ISIS is bad they are the ones funding them, the only ones who don't enjoy what they are doing is Iran, Iraq and Syria.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: YankHog on September 10, 2014, 07:39:09 am ---I know what you're saying but you're defining isuccess politically not militarily, I agree with you by the way but that's not up to us, we just go where and when we are told, I do think we should put boots on the ground to deal only with the ISIS threat and immediately pull them back out..as much as the rest of the middle east will groan and say yes ISIS is bad they are the ones funding them, the only ones who don't enjoy what they are doing is Iran, Iraq and Syria.

--- End quote ---

I don't have a problem with performing a raid.  Kill 'em all and move out.  I just don't want to get caught up in all that political crap again.

Old Tusk:

You think there is any chance of not getting bogged down in political crap?

YankHog:

no chance at all.

Old Tusk:

Think about Gaza. A tiny area that is pretty much cutoff. The Israelis have bombed and invaded how many times? And Hamas is still there.

Old Tusk:

Think about all that Russia and the US have put into Afghanistan. The Taliban is still there.


The Chief:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 10, 2014, 09:52:15 am ---You think there is any chance of not getting bogged down in political crap?

--- End quote ---

That's my point.  I don't.

LSUFan:


--- Quote from: The Chief on September 10, 2014, 12:22:20 pm ---That's my point.  I don't.

--- End quote ---
The amount of money Black and Veatch paid out in bribes, would astound you!

Pork Twain:


--- Quote from: YankHog on September 10, 2014, 07:39:09 am ---I know what you're saying but you're defining isuccess politically not militarily, I agree with you by the way but that's not up to us, we just go where and when we are told, I do think we should put boots on the ground to deal only with the ISIS threat and immediately pull them back out..as much as the rest of the middle east will groan and say yes ISIS is bad they are the ones funding them, the only ones who don't enjoy what they are doing is Iran, Iraq and Syria.

--- End quote ---
We have won a lot of battles but we have not won any wars in the Middle East and never will.  The reason is that the war there is not with any one country, it is with an ideology and a way of life.  As soon as we clean out an area and move on, the bad moves back in and takes over and the longer we are there, the more support they gain.  I wish we would have never gotten involved over there back in the 60's and our problems would be much smaller now, but our leaders insist on making us police the world where oil is concerned.  Sad that so many have lost their lives for so little at the end of the day.

Großer Kriegschwein:

I definitely don't get a rush from being shot at. Can't say I ever did aside from maybe my first time, adrenaline pumping. I ain't saying I got used to it, but depending on where I am in relation to the enemy when it happens, I know for a fact that I've been scared out of my gourd more times than not. Don't get me wrong, I never froze, or failed to do my duty, but that fear is there when the bullets go snapping over your hear or ricocheting around you. Crossing danger areas under fire with nothing but speed and smoke to screen your movement really sucks. The fear slowly subsides for me when I reach a point of fire superiority that I know will handle the threat to my men (120s, 60s, 155s, AWTs, SWTs) and then the calm usually sets in. After the mission is over, usually I'm kinda wired for a few hours, but nothing a little BSing in the CP or with the boys won't normally take care of. I've been known to fall asleep in the middle of conversations after that.

ADD: Fear really sets in when the fixed wing drop bombs within the same 100 miles I am operating in. Lost an M240 machine gun to shrapnel from a 1000 lb bomb that was 800 meters closer to me than it was supposed to be, good thing we ducked.

Old Tusk:

The real turning point for me was when I could admit that my friends die for nothing.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 17, 2014, 08:40:26 pm ---The real turning point for me was when I could admit that my friends die for nothing.

--- End quote ---

I think that was a realization everyone has had to come to. OIF I and OEF V, I was pretty naive about "fighting to protect America. "  I lost one of my guys in OEF V, and my perspective changed. From then on, it wasn't about patriotism or defending freedom, it was all about making sure the guys on my leg and right were all on that plane ride home.

That's the reason I became an Apache driver. Figured I could get some dudes out of bad spot, buy them time to get to safety,  and kill some al qaeda and Taliban in the process.

Pork Twain:

I will always believe that going after Iraq was nothing more than GW wanting to do what his dad could not and finish the job, even more than about oil.  Some say we went in to destroy WMDs that never materialized all the while ignoring Syria, Iran and North Korea.  Some say we went in to combat terror, but Pakistan, Iran, Syria and several others are just as big or bigger than Iraq ever was.  Some say it was about protecting people from genocide and human rights violations, but they ignore Africa and its lack of oil.  So many lives lost and for what?  At the end of the day, what have we really accomplished in the Middle East other than make more enemies and lost a lot of brothers and sisters in service?  I have not been a big combat guy like some of you but I have researched, prepared and presented more Intel briefs than I can count and it is and always will be an unwinnable effort over there.  Try arguing with a vegetarian as to why they should eat meat and it should become clearer that you cannot win a way of life battle.

Großer Kriegschwein:


--- Quote from: Pork Twain on September 18, 2014, 08:58:30 am ---
I have not been a big combat guy like some of you


--- End quote ---

I don't think there is such thing. I suppose there is a point where you might lose hope of surviving and try to take as many of them with you as you can while preserving the lives of your own. I was never in that position to make that choice. Had friends that were.



Old Tusk:

After rereading this thread, it occurs to me that we all evolved into mercenaries.

Pork Twain:

Sad truth isn't it.  We go wherever we can get something out of it.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 18, 2014, 03:30:55 pm ---After rereading this thread, it occurs to me that we all evolved into mercenaries.

--- End quote ---

I would make a lot more money as a soldier of fortune.  But, I do feel like a merc from time to time.

LSUFan:


--- Quote from: The Chief on September 18, 2014, 05:57:23 am ---I think that was a realization everyone has had to come to. OIF I and OEF V, I was pretty naive about "fighting to protect America. "  I lost one of my guys in OEF V, and my perspective changed. From then on, it wasn't about patriotism or defending freedom, it was all about making sure the guys on my leg and right were all on that plane ride home.

That's the reason I became an Apache driver. Figured I could get some dudes out of bad spot, buy them time to get to safety,  and kill some al qaeda and Taliban in the process.

--- End quote ---
Stack 'em five high and use 'em for sand bags.



YankHog:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on September 17, 2014, 08:40:26 pm ---The real turning point for me was when I could admit that my friends die for nothing.

--- End quote ---
When this point comes for any service member it's time for them to turn in their papers and call it a career, they are no longer any use to the military and only create more problems in units.  We are not politicians, our whole purpose is to fight and win our nation's battles, wherever and whenever our CIC and nation decides, whether you politically agree with it or not, your friends died with the nation's flag on his soldier and defending those priniciples, and their coffins were draped with those colors and honored by their units for defending the principles we stand for.  The most humbling experiences i've had is standing in way to many fallen comrade ceremonies in both Iraq and Afghanistan and flying home with them in aircraft.  If you remembered them, they didn't die for nothing.....just my humble opinion and please take it at that.

Old Tusk:

The backbone of the US Military is a core of dedicated professionals who master their craft. They do their job because it is the profession we choose. You are correct that if the CIC gives us a mission we do it because we are professional not because we are under some delusion that we are protecting the homeland.

SirCHog2:

If we put troops in country at all, it will occur right after the November election.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: SirCHog2 on September 27, 2014, 07:41:16 am ---If we put troops in country at all, it will occur right after the November election.

--- End quote ---

1st ID Div HQ has received orders to deploy to Iraq. Estimated 500 personnel will be in Iraq hovering to keep their boots off of the ground.

Pork Twain:


--- Quote from: YankHog on September 19, 2014, 01:13:59 pm ---When this point comes for any service member it's time for them to turn in their papers and call it a career, they are no longer any use to the military and only create more problems in units.  We are not politicians, our whole purpose is to fight and win our nation's battles, wherever and whenever our CIC and nation decides, whether you politically agree with it or not, your friends died with the nation's flag on his soldier and defending those priniciples, and their coffins were draped with those colors and honored by their units for defending the principles we stand for.  The most humbling experiences i've had is standing in way to many fallen comrade ceremonies in both Iraq and Afghanistan and flying home with them in aircraft.  If you remembered them, they didn't die for nothing.....just my humble opinion and please take it at that.

--- End quote ---
You are way off target here.  If every military member that did not agree with the orders they were given, got out, there would be no military.  Our job is to follow orders to the best of our ability, not to agree with all of them.  I prefer George W to Obama, but I think he made the bigger mistake by sending us in to finish what his daddy could not.

Großer Kriegschwein:


--- Quote from: Pork Twain on October 10, 2014, 07:02:35 am ---You are way off target here.  If every military member that did not agree with the orders they were given, got out, there would be no military.  Our job is to follow orders to the best of our ability, not to agree with all of them.  I prefer George W to Obama, but I think he made the bigger mistake by sending us in to finish what his daddy could not.

--- End quote ---

I actually deployed due to my younger habit of being an idealist. Didn't see the point in the Iraq invasion, could have opted out, but volunteered anyway (don't complain if you don't show up kinda thing). Weirdest combat tour of my career and am just thankful that the EFP wasn't around at the time. I don't complain about it and am quite the opposite now IRT the Iraq invasion. Our government cocked that one up. Plain and simple.

YankHog:


--- Quote from: Pork Twain on October 10, 2014, 07:02:35 am ---You are way off target here.  If every military member that did not agree with the orders they were given, got out, there would be no military.  Our job is to follow orders to the best of our ability, not to agree with all of them.  I prefer George W to Obama, but I think he made the bigger mistake by sending us in to finish what his daddy could not.

--- End quote ---

Did you not read my post, and you stated exactly what I stated in my post but without getting into whether we politically agree with something or not, because we both know that doesn't matter, that our job is to just follow the CIC's orders.  my point was directed at his comments of feeling his brothers in arms dies for nothing, and I don't care what service you are in, if you are deployed and feel like this I would be recommending a chapter because you are no longer of any value to whatever command you are in.  just my opinion.   and BTW Chief I am right back in 1ID AO now, thank goodness it's a quick trip this time.

Old Tusk:

So you are saying that I have to believe that we are dying for some noble cause to do my job. But I can do my job if I don't believe it is a noble because the CinC tells me to.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: SirCHog2 on September 27, 2014, 07:41:16 am ---If we put troops in country at all, it will occur right after the November election.

--- End quote ---

Watch the news over the next three months.  That is all.

YankHog:


--- Quote from: Old Tusk on November 05, 2014, 04:07:39 pm ---So you are saying that I have to believe that we are dying for some noble cause to do my job. But I can do my job if I don't believe it is a noble because the CinC tells me to.

--- End quote ---
JHC no, wihat I am saying is if you feel your friends and soldiers who are going out on a mission and dying is for NOTHING, then you are no longer an effective part of the unit and will do nothing but destroy morale and it would be best for you and the Army to part ways.  I am not saying you have to believe in the political views or even the mission, but you should believe in the patch on your right shoulder and the soldiers to your left and your right, those are the two things you fight for.   

JIMMY BOARFFETT:

My hat is off to all you guys that have gone into harm's way for our country.  It seems to me that we need to remove all the rules of engagement put in place by squeamish politicians an let our troops do their jobs.  Start leveling the mosques that are used as sanctuaries and such.  Negotiating with this enemy is pointless and always ends to their advantage.

Lyndon Johnson thought he could politic his way to a negotiated victory in Vietnam.  He was wrong. 

The Chief:

Announced today that 1500 more troops to Iraq. Keep watching the news. That is all.

majestic:


--- Quote from: The Chief on November 07, 2014, 04:55:44 pm ---Announced today that 1500 more troops to Iraq. Keep watching the news. That is all.

--- End quote ---
Oh joy. Here we go again.

Old Tusk:

Not to mention another 7.5 billion.

RBLtoHOG:

Know a guy that's a squad leader in the Marines (I'm not personally in the military, not sure if that's the right terminology) but he wishes we could go in to fight ISIS with no media coverage. Says his troops are sometimes more worried about how something will be represented by the news over here instead of getting the job done.

Can actually see where he is coming from. They have the courage to do a job and majority of us don't... Let's let them do their damn jobs their way.

Pork Twain:


--- Quote from: YankHog on November 05, 2014, 08:18:15 am ---Did you not read my post, and you stated exactly what I stated in my post but without getting into whether we politically agree with something or not, because we both know that doesn't matter, that our job is to just follow the CIC's orders.  my point was directed at his comments of feeling his brothers in arms dies for nothing, and I don't care what service you are in, if you are deployed and feel like this I would be recommending a chapter because you are no longer of any value to whatever command you are in.  just my opinion.   and BTW Chief I am right back in 1ID AO now, thank goodness it's a quick trip this time.

--- End quote ---
I read it and you are wrong.  You do not have to agree with orders in order to follow them well and you do not have to agree with the conflict your CIC pushes you into in order to die for it.  That stance is just not realistic, much more idealistic.

YankHog:


--- Quote from: Pork Twain on November 11, 2014, 07:11:03 am ---I read it and you are wrong.  You do not have to agree with orders in order to follow them well and you do not have to agree with the conflict your CIC pushes you into in order to die for it.  That stance is just not realistic, much more idealistic.

--- End quote ---
then we agree to disagree,    I agree with what you are saying,  what I am saying is if you outwardly express this, and chances are, if you feel your buddies are dying for nothing you can't hold that in, you are no good to any unit you are in, and morale will crash, just like having a bad leader, lord knows I don't agree with the CIC

pheine78:


--- Quote from: YankHog on September 19, 2014, 01:13:59 pm ---When this point comes for any service member it's time for them to turn in their papers and call it a career, they are no longer any use to the military and only create more problems in units.  We are not politicians, our whole purpose is to fight and win our nation's battles, wherever and whenever our CIC and nation decides, whether you politically agree with it or not, your friends died with the nation's flag on his soldier and defending those priniciples, and their coffins were draped with those colors and honored by their units for defending the principles we stand for.  The most humbling experiences i've had is standing in way to many fallen comrade ceremonies in both Iraq and Afghanistan and flying home with them in aircraft.  If you remembered them, they didn't die for nothing.....just my humble opinion and please take it at that.

--- End quote ---
This might be the most spot on post I have ever read on Hogville.  As servicemen and women we sign on to do one thing--support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  If you don't agree with what our country is doing, we don't need you.  If you waiver you should never, ever, ever, be placed in a position of leadership.  I am Air Force, but I have been deployed with every service, its just the nature of my job.  I have built combat outposts (or patrol bases, or whatever they are calling them now) for the Army and Marines in Afghanistan.  I have driven up and down the roads in Iraq clearing routes. Did I agree with those wars?  It doesn't matter one iota.  I support my leaders, therefore I support my country.  I support my brothers and sisters in arms, therefore I support my countrymen.  Don't tell me or any of them that it didn't matter, because it did.  And it does today.  Please send me to Syria to kill some bad guys.  If there is one less sawing off heads it is a victory in my book and I would like to be the guy that put my sights on one and pulled the trigger.

The Chief:


--- Quote from: pheine78 on January 30, 2015, 05:35:33 pm ---This might be the most spot on post I have ever read on Hogville.  As servicemen and women we sign on to do one thing--support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  If you don't agree with what our country is doing, we don't need you.  If you waiver you should never, ever, ever, be placed in a position of leadership.  I am Air Force, but I have been deployed with every service, its just the nature of my job.  I have built combat outposts (or patrol bases, or whatever they are calling them now) for the Army and Marines in Afghanistan.  I have driven up and down the roads in Iraq clearing routes. Did I agree with those wars?  It doesn't matter one iota.  I support my leaders, therefore I support my country.  I support my brothers and sisters in arms, therefore I support my countrymen.  Don't tell me or any of them that it didn't matter, because it did.  And it does today.  Please send me to Syria to kill some bad guys.  If there is one less sawing off heads it is a victory in my book and I would like to be the guy that put my sights on one and pulled the trigger.

--- End quote ---

You make two interesting and potentially conflicting statements.  First, you say we take an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.  I absolutely agree.

Then, you go on to say, "If you don't agree with what our country is doing, we don't need you."  That statement can potentially conflict with your first.

Supporting and defending our Constitution does not necessarily equate with agreeing with what our country is doing.  What I believe is more relevant than agreeing with our country, is evaluating our orders and understanding them and their legality before executing those orders.

Supporting and defending the Constitution means executing orders from our elected civilian leadership and superior military officers...IF they are legal, Constitutional orders. 

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as we all have our own opinions on the "worthiness" of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc.  I'm just trying to make you aware that supporting and defending the Constitution doesn't necessarily equate to jumping on the nation's bandwagon.  Sometimes, it's refusing to do what your country asks when the order is illegal.

DISCLAIMER:  Having participated in OIF I, OEF V, OEF IX-X, and OEF XII-XIII, I have no doubt as to the legality of the orders given by both Presidents Bush and Obama as authorized by Congress through the War Powers Act.  One could argue the War Powers Act is illegal since Congress cannot constitutionally surrender its war declaration power to the President, but that's not for me to decide.

My argument of it "not being worth it" has nothing to do with the service, sacrifice, pain, and death of service members in OIF/OEF.  I measure the "worthiness" as the total outcome of the endeavor.  The same outcome which politicians have pissed away into "worthlessness."  It may have been better than we kicked butt, took names, and left rather than allow politicians to muck up another nation-building exercise in futility.  That's what I can't stand.  We all know Afghanistan and Iraq will crumble no matter how much time, money, and blood we put into them.  That is what I can't stand to see people get hurt or die for.

YankHog:

Well said Chief, the problem is that we are just not trained to be policemen of a foreign country for 10 years, we cannot fight another country's insurgency indefinitely, AFG will be a mess when all our troops are out, hopefully when they decide exactly what they will do with ISIS we will be in and out, what do they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?  7 months to retiremnt....

Pork Twain:

Great post chief and I believe you are right on the money and will add my 20+ AD experience to yours to say that is what I have seen as well.

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