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Author Topic: Return to Grass?  (Read 7019 times)

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Mike Irwin

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Return to Grass?
« on: April 05, 2018, 08:27:41 pm »

Word is circulating that the athletic department is either going to replace the turf at RRS or go back to grass. Can't see it happening this season but maybe for 2019. Today Morris was asked his preference and he said, "Grass."
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PorkSoda

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 08:34:16 pm »

is normal life of the turf around 10 years?
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 08:38:28 pm »

I predict we go 90% grass...
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Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 08:38:40 pm »

Word is circulating that the athletic department is either going to replace the turf at RRS or go back to grass. Can't see it happening this season but maybe for 2019. Today Morris was asked his preference and he said, "Grass."

I wonder why grass?  Usually speed guys like turf. 

It could be a safety issue.  Turf can be softer, but those little black beads can get in your lungs and cause serious problems.
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 08:39:55 pm »

I wonder why grass?  Usually speed guys like turf. 

It could be a safety issue.  Turf can be softer, but those little black beads can get in your lungs and cause serious problems.

CCM mentioned that he preferred football to played on grass when he got here.

I think it's simply personal preference
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PorkSoda

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2018, 08:41:47 pm »

CCM mentioned that he preferred football to played on grass when he got here.

I think it's simply personal preference
maybe a HS thing?  ie just what he is used to?

I also wonder what the difference is in maintenance costs.  it may end up being a financial decision.
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 08:46:24 pm »

maybe a HS thing?  ie just what he is used to?



In Texas, many highschools have turf. Maybe he's just a traditionalist
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 08:49:34 pm »

I would like to see it go back to grass. Old school. Football was meant to be played on grass and in the open.
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ricepig

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 08:49:36 pm »

is normal life of the turf around 10 years?

Yes, the turf is scheduled to be replaced this summer, or was under the previous AD. As to grass, pretty sure that's what they have at Clemson.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 08:49:40 pm »

maybe a HS thing?  ie just what he is used to?

I also wonder what the difference is in maintenance costs.  it may end up being a financial decision.

IIRC turf is actually cheaper to maintain in the long run than grass. I remember a discussion about that before. Grass has much more constant maintenance.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 08:51:13 pm »

I wonder why grass?  Usually speed guys like turf. 

It could be a safety issue.  Turf can be softer, but those little black beads can get in your lungs and cause serious problems.

I’ve never understood that. Both teams are playing on the same surface during the game so no advantage. If a Team is faster on turf they will be on grass.
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 08:54:05 pm »

I would like to see it go back to grass. Old school. Football was meant to be played on grass and in the open.

and the water needs to be cold /  coffee needs to be hot
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 08:57:58 pm »

and the water needs to be cold /  coffee needs to be hot

Amen!

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Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2018, 09:05:15 pm »

I’ve never understood that. Both teams are playing on the same surface during the game so no advantage. If a Team is faster on turf they will be on grass.

Because if you have team speed and less size you want a surface that gives you that advantage.  If you are a team that does not emphasize speed, and more power, and you are going against teams that use speed, you want to have a surface that will give you the advantage and slow the other team down.

That was the way folks used to think anyway.  A pound and ground attack used to prefer grass, while Bobby P. wanted a turf to give his guys a better surface for speed and cuts in their routes.

Again, that may be outdated thinking now.
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 09:07:30 pm »

I see everyone returning to grass....the other stuff is just too dangerous.
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ChicoHog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 09:08:52 pm »

I definitely prefer grass just as a visual aspect.  It looks so much better on TV although the artificial turf used now is so much better than the old stuff back in the 70s and 80s.   Also you get the grass in the face mask look! 
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Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 09:09:55 pm »

I see everyone returning to grass....the other stuff is just too dangerous.

 ;D
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1HourToHogville

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 09:15:25 pm »

Large crane in end zone was being disassembled today.  Plenty of time to replace existing turf with grass or turf. 
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2018, 09:15:58 pm »

Because if you have team speed and less size you want a surface that gives you that advantage.  If you are a team that does not emphasize speed, and more power, and you are going against teams that use speed, you want to have a surface that will give you the advantage and slow the other team down.

That was the way folks used to think anyway.  A pound and ground attack used to prefer grass, while Bobby P. wanted a turf to give his guys a better surface for speed and cuts in their routes.

Again, that may be outdated thinking now.

Coach Williams used to give the grass a little extra water before the Northside game...
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2018, 09:18:53 pm »

Nothing like early morning practice and doing stretches and warmups on wet grass, especially when your pads are still wet from yesterdays practice.
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 09:20:37 pm »

nm
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Porked Tongue

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 09:21:23 pm »

Grass would be great.

Next thing you know the UA will get Coke back.
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Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2018, 09:23:48 pm »

Grass would be great.

Next thing you know the UA will get Coke back.

Our losing ways started with that poison Pepsi.  We MUST get coke back.
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Mike Irwin

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2018, 09:39:18 pm »

Large crane in end zone was being disassembled today.  Plenty of time to replace existing turf with grass or turf.
Plenty of time to replace the turf but I'm not so sure about grass. I watched what they did when they took up the grass after Petrino got here. They took out the drainage system and put in something completely different. If they had to go back to what they had seems like they'd need to make a decision very soon.
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bennyl08

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2018, 10:02:06 pm »

I’ve never understood that. Both teams are playing on the same surface during the game so no advantage. If a Team is faster on turf they will be on grass.

Seems like you are assuming a linear response and that probably isn't the case. If it's a non-linear response, then faster players could get a greater speed boost out of the turf than slower players would.

For example, say it boosted everybody's speed by 2%. Well, somebody going 10 mph would then be able to go 10.2 mph on turf, while somebody going 20 mph would be boosted up to 20.4 mph. Convert that to feed per second, and the faster player would gain an additional ~4 inches per second over the slower player.

Of course, I'm pulling that 2% from where the sun doesn't shine (the polar regions in the winter time...) but that's a simple way to show how a surface could in fact benefit a faster team more than it would benefit a slower team despite the fact that both teams are playing on the same surface.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2018, 10:21:12 pm »

Because if you have team speed and less size you want a surface that gives you that advantage.  If you are a team that does not emphasize speed, and more power, and you are going against teams that use speed, you want to have a surface that will give you the advantage and slow the other team down.

That was the way folks used to think anyway.  A pound and ground attack used to prefer grass, while Bobby P. wanted a turf to give his guys a better surface for speed and cuts in their routes.

Again, that may be outdated thinking now.

A faster team playing a slower team will still be faster if both teams are running on the same surface.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2018, 10:23:08 pm »

Seems like you are assuming a linear response and that probably isn't the case. If it's a non-linear response, then faster players could get a greater speed boost out of the turf than slower players would.

For example, say it boosted everybody's speed by 2%. Well, somebody going 10 mph would then be able to go 10.2 mph on turf, while somebody going 20 mph would be boosted up to 20.4 mph. Convert that to feed per second, and the faster player would gain an additional ~4 inches per second over the slower player.

Of course, I'm pulling that 2% from where the sun doesn't shine (the polar regions in the winter time...) but that's a simple way to show how a surface could in fact benefit a faster team more than it would benefit a slower team despite the fact that both teams are playing on the same surface.

You are assuming a non linear. Might be or might not be. Either way thanks for still proving my point. The faster team will still be faster.
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HogCzar1

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 10:41:08 pm »

Plenty of time to replace the turf but I'm not so sure about grass. I watched what they did when they took up the grass after Petrino got here. They took out the drainage system and put in something completely different. If they had to go back to what they had seems like they'd need to make a decision very soon.

I like grass myself, but I can also remember games in Fayetteville in late October and November when we still had grass where the field looked brown and dead. I think there has actually been some data to show that the newer versions of turf may reduce concussions even vs. grass. I would defer to Coach Morris on this, but I can see where turf can be an asset in the late part of the season.
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ImHogginIt

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2018, 10:42:10 pm »

Plenty of time to replace the turf but I'm not so sure about grass. I watched what they did when they took up the grass after Petrino got here. They took out the drainage system and put in something completely different. If they had to go back to what they had seems like they'd need to make a decision very soon.

I thought the South endzone made it difficult to keep grass in late Oct and Nov which was one of the reasons we switched to turf. Now we've put a giant scoreboard up there as well to block sunlight
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ImHogginIt

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2018, 10:43:45 pm »

I like grass myself, but I can also remember games in Fayetteville in late October and November when we still had grass where the field looked brown and dead. I think there has actually been some data to show that the newer versions of turf may reduce concussions even vs. grass. I would defer to Coach Morris on this, but I can see where turf can be an asset in the late part of the season.

Beat me by a minute and 2 seconds  ;)
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prattville pig

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2018, 11:06:26 pm »

can't wait till I can return to grass
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lahhog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2018, 11:41:36 pm »

I wonder why grass?  Usually speed guys like turf. 

It could be a safety issue.  Turf can be softer, but those little black beads can get in your lungs and cause serious problems.

I have never heard of the turf causing lung issues, but I do know that you are much less likely to tear an ACL on grass since it has much more give and will tear away when turf will not.

With the kicking issues the razorbacks have had of late the idea of having to kick on a muddy grass surface deeply frightens me.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 07:16:14 am »

Don’t we have a U of A professor that lurks here and complainant about the current field?  I believe maybe he was at one time involved in the turf program responsible for the football field? 
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twistitup

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2018, 07:23:09 am »

I have never heard of the turf causing lung issues, but I do know that you are much less likely to tear an ACL on grass since it has much more give and will tear away when turf will not.

With the kicking issues the razorbacks have had of late the idea of having to kick on a muddy grass surface deeply frightens me.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2016/03/28/professor-identifies-cancer-causing-chemicals-in-artificial-turf/
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porkbellys

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2018, 08:01:26 am »

Ill bring my mower over and mow the field if it would help the financial situation, free admission to games of course.

Twist ill keep the trimmings for you.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2018, 08:09:51 am »

IIRC turf is actually cheaper to maintain in the long run than grass. I remember a discussion about that before. Grass has much more constant maintenance.

Yes we had a long thread on this about 3-4 years ago.
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woodrow hog call

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2018, 08:25:35 am »

Plenty of time to replace the turf but I'm not so sure about grass. I watched what they did when they took up the grass after Petrino got here. They took out the drainage system and put in something completely different. If they had to go back to what they had seems like they'd need to make a decision very soon.

That's exactly what I was going to ask about, the drainage system under the grass is the critical component to keep it playable in wet weather, and keeping it that perfect shade of green. Great thing is, we already have the staff to get it done, give this guy and his staff a raise, buy them some more equipment, and make it happen.

https://razorbackers.com/2016/01/07/arkansas-razorbacks-home-to-groundskeeping-all-star/

"The Arkansas Razorbacks Athletic program has had it’s ups and downs. They have had their fair share of good athletes and superstar athletes. When it comes to baseball, it’s no different. In fact, the Razorbacks baseball program is arguably one of the best in the nation. Led by Dave Van Horn, one of the nation’s best college coaches, the Hogs have been to the post season for 14 straight years and the College World Series three times in the last 6 seasons. Between the coach, the players and the venue, the Hogs are a baseball force to be reckoned with so it should come as no surprise that they are home to one of the countries top college groundskeepers, Blake Anderson.

Anderson, Assistant Director of Sports Turf Operations at the University of Arkansas, won the third annual “Mowing Patterns Contest” held by Sports Turf Managers Association. The STMA is a professional organization for 2,600 men and women who manage sports fields worldwide. Anderson’s winning photo (seen above) was voted on Facebook from October 21-Novermber 20. He credits the fans who poured in the votes for helping him seal the honor.




“I believe our fan base is very good for college baseball,” Assistant Director of Sports Turf Operations Blake Anderson said. “This year we put in a little more effort to get the information out there for people to vote. I think we ended up with 180-something votes and that’s what won it for us.”

Blake Anderson
Just like in sports, Anderson had to move his way up to make it to Baum Stadium. He is originally from Illinois and has worked with the Atlanta Braves and the Kansas City Royals Single-A affiliate, Lexington Legends. It was a no-brainer for him when the job became available.

“This job was definitely an upgrade for me,” Anderson said. “It’s probably considered one of the top five turf jobs, especially in the SEC. Baseball requires a lot of work and is harder than other turf jobs with the edges, the dirt, the warning track, and pitchers mound. It’s really a 24/7 job.”

Anderson’s designs are great. If you’ve been to Baum stadium then you know the type of quality that Anderson and his team put into their work. Sometimes looking at the field, it’s hard not to ask just how in the world do they get it to look like that? The answer is a little more simple than you might think.

“It’s just the way the grass lays over and how the sun hits it,” Anderson said. “If the sun is out, it makes the patter pop a little more because of the reflections of the grass. Basically, if you’re looking at the pattern and if you’re mowing away, that’s going to be the light pattern. The dark patter would be coming back, almost like the shadow of the grass. Our mowers have heavy rollers on the back that push the grass down. We’ll mow the pattern at least three times to make it really pop.”

Think of it like vacuuming at home. Its the same effect. For Anderson, he loves to see a nice straight pattern, no circles or squiggles. When he can show his work off to the fans or get compliments from players, home or away, it puts a smile on his face.


It’s definitely a good feeling when people give you compliments,” Anderson said. “We host high school tournaments here and always recieve high praise. Last year, visiting teams gave us really high praise for our dirt– how it plays, if the ball bounces true. We we’ve been told it’s top-notch, MLB quality dirt. We like to hear that.”

It’s all in a days work for Anderson, who will be featured in SportsTurf, STMA’s monthly publication. If you make it out to Baum this year, show some support for the turf team now that you know the man behind the design.

Check out more of his work below. Woo Pig."
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oldhawg

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2018, 08:26:14 am »

Plenty of time to replace the turf but I'm not so sure about grass. I watched what they did when they took up the grass after Petrino got here. They took out the drainage system and put in something completely different. If they had to go back to what they had seems like they'd need to make a decision very soon.

Razorbacks could always play in Little Rock until the "grass grows." 

(In the interest of full disclosure, obviously said with tongue planted firmly in cheek, although some may not interpret it that way).
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justmakeit2thebcs

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2018, 08:34:40 am »

I would like to see it go back to grass. Old school. Football was meant to be played on grass and in the open.
Do you want an old school offense as welll?
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Tejano Jawg

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2018, 08:57:29 am »

I wonder why grass?  Usually speed guys like turf. 

It could be a safety issue.  Turf can be softer, but those little black beads can get in your lungs and cause serious problems.

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that Morris would prefer grass. But guess he has his reasons, maybe just a little "traditional" twist. I always enjoy stories of teams that let their grass grow taller when playing fast opponents. I've heard this enough times to believe it actually works. However, with us, won't WE usually be the faster team (or at least that's the plan)?

I didn't know about the small black rubber-bits issue (inhaling it), but it makes sense. Back in my day, I remember all the times I got grass, dirt and mud in my mouth. At least all that is natural and organic, not made from recycled tires. My oldest son played football his freshman year of high school, on a new fake-turf field…it did make for some interesting laundry sessions, with all that black debris everywhere.
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liljo

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2018, 09:02:06 am »

I have never heard of the turf causing lung issues, but I do know that you are much less likely to tear an ACL on grass since it has much more give and will tear away when turf will not.

With the kicking issues the razorbacks have had of late the idea of having to kick on a muddy grass surface deeply frightens me.


Oh, yeah man, smokin' turf is very hard on the lungs. You can ask anybody. Grass is much preferred.
 ;)
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pigture perfect

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2018, 09:59:44 am »

When I was younger, and didn’t get to play much, I made sure that I got as many grass stains on my uniform as possible during warm-ups. That way mid way through and even after the game, people thought I actually got in the game. That usually meant automatic hugs from the cheerleaders. Oh Yeah! I preferred grass.
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Busta_Nutt

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2018, 10:02:34 am »


A faster team playing a slower team will still be faster if both teams are running on the same surface.

You don't say?
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2018, 10:07:08 am »

Do you want an old school offense as welll?

It's all recycled. A lot of the "new" offenses are just recycled versions of the Wing T which to me is pretty old school.
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steveaustin69

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2018, 10:12:40 am »


A faster team playing a slower team will still be faster if both teams are running on the same surface.

Scorching hot take

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sowmonella

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2018, 10:20:19 am »

Willie approves.
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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2018, 10:23:29 am »

You got to buy mowers, and then have real turf management guys.  I don't even want to think about what TrueGreen would charge to treat it.  Then you have critters to deal with as well.  Prairie dogs, ground hogs, moles, grubs.  What if fire ants become a problem.  Sure everyone wants to go back to grass until TJ breaks off a big run only to trip over an ant hill and get swarmed. 
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ChicoHog

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2018, 10:55:08 am »

Our losing ways started with that poison Pepsi.  We MUST get coke back.
Pepsi fan and stock holder here.  But I really don't care that much.  I just get a kick out of people who get all worked up over it. 
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tbhogfan

Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2018, 11:15:13 am »

Word is circulating that the athletic department is either going to replace the turf at RRS or go back to grass. Can't see it happening this season but maybe for 2019. Today Morris was asked his preference and he said, "Grass."
I agree with Coach Morris. 
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grassguy

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Re: Return to Grass?
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2018, 11:18:38 am »

My goal here is to provide facts regarding the topic at hand. Buckle up...

Feasibility of switching to natural grass before the start of the season
When the field was converted to synthetic turf during Petrino's second season, steps were taken to allow for easy conversion back to natural grass when the time came. For those of you unfamiliar with what is actually under high-end natural grass sports field, follow the link: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/course-care/2004%20USGA%20Recommendations%20For%20a%20Method%20of%20Putting%20Green%20Cons.pdf
To install the synthetic turf, a layer of the sand was removed to a given depth and a plastic 'barrier' was installed to prevent any contamination of the sand when the synthetic turf was installed. No drainage under the natural grass was taken out or altered during the installation of the synthetic turf. To install natural grass back in the stadium, everything must be removed down to the plastic barrier on top of the sand, remove the plastic, add sand to a desired depth, grade, and install the grass.

While I am on the subject of the soil underneath the field, it must be noted that mud is no item of concern for modern natural grass fields due to sand being the underlying soil (see USGA link above). Sand allows for rapid drainage and does not turn into mud.

Cost differences
Over the long-term, synthetic turf fields actually cost more than natural grass fields. This is due to the large costs associated with replacing synthetic turf fields. There is also a great misconception that synthetic turf fields require little or no maintenance compared to natural grass, which is not true. The link here: http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/STMA_Bulletins/NaturalGrassFields.pdf
outlines differences in the cost of installation and maintenance between the two surfaces.

Safety and player preference
Synthetic surfaces are more firm than natural grass, leading to more concussions and joint injuries in synthetic turf. The Concussion Federation released an article on the topic of concussions and synthetic turf : https://concussionfoundation.org/sites/default/files/Learning%20Center/The%20Role%20of%20Synthetic%20Turf%20in%20Concussion_0.pdf
Here is a paper that reported the rate of ACL injuries is 1.39 times greater on synthetic turf compared to natural grass: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0363546512442336
Hopefully we can all agree that synthetic turf gets hotter than natural grass, but let me know if you need me to support that argument with research...
In general, players prefer to play on natural grass. The 2010 NFLPA playing surfaces opinion survey indicated that 69.4% of players preferred to play on natural grass, while only 14.3% preferred playing on synthetic turf. The entire study can be found here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57fe8750d482e926d718f65a/t/593ed0a83e00be288f8275f6/1497288875429/2010_NFL_Survey.pdf

BTW Blake Anderson no longer works at the U of A...he has taken a job as a fertilizer salesman in the St. Louis area.
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