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Author Topic: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports  (Read 3293 times)

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hogsanity

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Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« on: April 02, 2018, 08:38:29 am »

Youth sports could be alterd, either in days games are traditionally paid, or possibly not played at all according to one writer. I apologize for no citation, but I did not write this myself.

"Youth referees across the nation are packing up their whistles and going home in response to increased instances of verbal and even physical abuse from volatile parents and coaches.

The shrinking pool of officials has become a national crisis that threatens to alter the landscape of youth sports as leagues scramble to find enough referees to hold games.

Eighty percent of high school officials are quitting before their third year, according to the National Federation of State High School Associations, which launched a national recruitment effort last year to attract more officials.

In multiple states, games are being cancelled or postponed due to a shortage of referees. In South Carolina, 70 percent of new officials in youth soccer do not return after their first year, according to the SC Referee Association.

"They need to remember that many of the officials at this level are doing it to give back to kids, remember that the kids don't play a perfect game, coaches don't coach a perfect game and certainly our officials aren't going to officiate a perfect game,'' NFHS executive director Bob Gardner told Gadi Schwartz on TODAY Thursday.

Scenes of parents behaving badly at youth sporting events have repeatedly gone viral online, and the confrontations occasionally involve physical assaults on officials.

In January, a police captain in Wichita, Kansas, was charged with battery after he was shown on video pushing a 17-year-old referee at a youth girls basketball game.

A high school football coach pleaded guilty to assault in 2015 for ordering his players to hit a referee during a game.

In addition to rowdier parents, officials also have to deal with being trolled online when video of their calls can easily be taken on a cell phone and posted on social media.

"Now your every call, your every movement is, via social media or other forms, judged by thousands, sometimes even before you get home,'' said Dwayne Finley, who has been officiating games in California for 20 years.

Other factors such as low pay, aging officials and the continued expansion of travel and club teams that compete for officials with public school programs have contributed to the crisis.

Finley believes there's a simple two-step solution. Parents need to behave better, and those who think they can do better should sign up to become officials.

"If it was so easy anyone could do it, put on a whistle, go to training, and we'd love to have you come into the fraternity or sorority of officials and you can see it's not as easy as it looks,'' he said."

Always needing referees! Get in the game! You won't know how much you'll like it until you give it a try.
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hogsfan31

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2018, 10:39:24 am »

Most of them are tired of these crazy parents they have to put up with every single game. If parents would stop thinking their kids are the next professional athlete out there and let their kids enjoy playing the game these refs wouldnít be giving it up in droves. Ita hard to go to little league and high school sporting events these days because of how many parents are out there acting a fool.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2018, 11:42:33 am »

Sad and I been hearing these horror stories for several years.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 11:46:36 am »

Sad and I been hearing these horror stories for several years.

Already many teams having to play varsity football on either Thur night or Sat mornings due to shortage of white hats, and from what I am being told about the 2018 season we are going to see a lot more of that. I also know of at least two youth basketball leagues that had to cancel entire Saturdays because no one would go call for them because of how the refs were treated on previous days.
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oldfart

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 03:42:23 pm »

for many years i refereed high school football and basketball games, mostly at small schools... and later on when i couldn't keep up on the field or court i went to youth leagues.  I loved working with the kids on the field but as mentioned above several times, the parents were a negative factor.  Its hard to imagine in a kids league of 4th and 5th graders the parents expecting so much out of them on the court.   
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 04:02:08 pm »

for many years i refereed high school football and basketball games, mostly at small schools... and later on when i couldn't keep up on the field or court i went to youth leagues.  I loved working with the kids on the field but as mentioned above several times, the parents were a negative factor.  Its hard to imagine in a kids league of 4th and 5th graders the parents expecting so much out of them on the court.   

They have all drank the kool aid that their kid is going to get a scholarship or that their kid, at least, is not the one making mistakes. IT is always someone else's fault that little Johnny cant walk and dribble at the same time, or has stone hands or whatever else is keeping him from being the star.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 10:37:22 pm »

I can see this in basketball they are and have always been the very worst of referrees.  Sometime I think the only way a ref survives is if they just donít care if anyone knows they are biased towards certain teams.  Iím sorry but you donít miss calls that benifit one team 75/25.  If that IS happening the head official should make adjustments just like we expect a coach to make adjustments. 

Just like in this game tonight, you guys think WE grab and hold a lot, both these teams put us to shame and the refs arenít calling half what the SEC refs call in our games.  And itís not anywhere close to the same game to game in the SEC regardless of who is playing. 

These refs come up through the ranks and they learn their bad practices from the very start from other bad refs.  We need a national system weíre they are taught and graded by an independent entity outside the power of a single conference.   If you want to progress through the ranks from high school to college to pros then there should be some benifit to a higher level of integrity in your game. 

This is a career you can get involved in at the lowest levels right out of high school but you should at least attend some sort of training at a local Jr college with some online work.  Under the right circumstances you would have plenty of candidates.   Now, even with all that in this day and age you probably still need police at most sporting events ready and willing to throw fans out of the arena.
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hoglady

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2018, 10:53:57 pm »

Spoiled parents raising kids even more spoiled.

When my daughter played ball (basketball and softball) 20 years ago I knew most all the officials off the field.
Either through work or some social activities. I couldn't imagine myself or any parent I was around acting poorly toward a ref.
I kept score at most of the area gyms during the AAU season and never saw parents acting crazy.
(The coaches my daughter had would have asked a parent acting poorly to leave the gym or leave the ballpark - I don't think they would have put up with it).

Obviously, the world has changed since then.
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jkstock04

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2018, 06:05:08 am »

I see it as a supply and demand issue. Itíll work out. If demand goes up so will $$$. And they will get someone to put on the zebra suit and blow a whistle.

Much ado about nothing. If some traveling after school pseudo league goes belly up because of lack of refs itís because they donít pay enough.

Whatíll end up happening in the end is itíll get MORE expensive to play sports if there is truly a shortage of refs. I agree with many of these sentiments though...I go to my nephews basketball games sometimes and itís comical and on occasion downright embarrassing the way adults/parents of these kids act.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2018, 08:43:11 am »

I see it as a supply and demand issue. Itíll work out. If demand goes up so will $$$. And they will get someone to put on the zebra suit and blow a whistle.

Much ado about nothing. If some traveling after school pseudo league goes belly up because of lack of refs itís because they donít pay enough.

Whatíll end up happening in the end is itíll get MORE expensive to play sports if there is truly a shortage of refs. I agree with many of these sentiments though...I go to my nephews basketball games sometimes and itís comical and on occasion downright embarrassing the way adults/parents of these kids act.


The $$$$ has gone up, dramatically, the last few years, and it is still not KEEPING new officials. When you figure in drive time and pre game prep, guys are still only getting $15-$20 and hr, tops, and not nearly that in basketball.

I quit doing youth league basketball on weekends just because it was not nearly worth it to listen to the parents.

Travel leagues are not the ones suffering, they will hire ANYONE to ref because they make so much off the parents in player fees and gate. It is scholastically where you will see games really suffer. Like I said, Some schools are having to play varsity football on Thur or Sat due to a lack of officials.

Lack of retention in basketball is why you have 1st year guys doing varsity games, there just are not enough guys to go around.
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GuvHog

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2018, 10:00:16 am »

I agree, there are parents that get out of hand at ball games and that's not good. I totally understand the officials frustration with that.

On the other hand in defense of the players particularly in High School sports, those kids work their backsides off every day as a team to achieve a goal. They are taught to abide by the rules and are taught sportsmanship (some don't listen though). It's pretty hard on a bunch of kids to get within reach of the goal they worked so hard for only to have it taken from them by inept officiating. I'm not a parent so I have no connection to any high School team but I have seen that very thing happen on several occasions. I respect High School sports officials for what they do on a regular basis. It's a hard job but they should at least endeavor to know the rules well and apply them properly. Those kids really deserve that and shouldn't be hurt by inept officiating.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2018, 10:16:54 am »

I agree, there are parents that get out of hand at ball games and that's not good. I totally understand the officials frustration with that.

On the other hand in defense of the players particularly in High School sports, those kids work their backsides off every day as a team to achieve a goal. They are taught to abide by the rules and are taught sportsmanship (some don't listen though). It's pretty hard on a bunch of kids to get within reach of the goal they worked so hard for only to have it taken from them by inept officiating. I'm not a parent so I have no connection to any high School team but I have seen that very thing happen on several occasions. I respect High School sports officials for what they do on a regular basis. It's a hard job but they should at least endeavor to know the rules well and apply them properly. Those kids really deserve that and shouldn't be hurt by inept officiating.

Except, usually they do know the rules, and it is the fans lack of knowledge of the rules that makes it seem like the ref did not get something right. We do spend time studying, going to camps, reading case books, watching videos.

So many things have become myths among fans. Baseball -" The hands are part of the bat " - partially true. The hands are part of the bat - WHEN a batter swings. If the batter is trying to avoid a pitch, then the hands are part of the body. Football - " You can't block in the back " Again, partially true. You CAN block in the back in the free blocking zone. And my all time favorite comes from basketball - " OVER THE BACK!!! " There is no such violation. You can have a push from behind if the player dislodges another from their position, but simply jumping up and reaching over a player from behind is not a violation. I bet over the back gets yelled 100 times in a basketball game.

But none of that speaks to the issue addressed in the article I cited. The way referees are treated is having an impact on the games because officials, either good or bad, are leaving the jobs and being replaced by new officials with no experience at all IF replacements can be found at all.

During HS baseball season, I could literally work games 6 days a week. There was a day 3 weeks ago, I had a game for my main association, and I got called by 3 others assignors who could not find enough guys to fill all their games. 
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jkstock04

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2018, 10:30:00 am »

The $$$$ has gone up, dramatically, the last few years, and it is still not KEEPING new officials. When you figure in drive time and pre game prep, guys are still only getting $15-$20 and hr, tops, and not nearly that in basketball.

I quit doing youth league basketball on weekends just because it was not nearly worth it to listen to the parents.

Travel leagues are not the ones suffering, they will hire ANYONE to ref because they make so much off the parents in player fees and gate. It is scholastically where you will see games really suffer. Like I said, Some schools are having to play varsity football on Thur or Sat due to a lack of officials.

Lack of retention in basketball is why you have 1st year guys doing varsity games, there just are not enough guys to go around.
Do fans really get to you in football? I can see in an enclosed basketball arena how that could be awful...but football is outside on a big field. I would figure the sneers from the stands would drown out.

Coaches barking at refs is nothing new, Iím gonna assume thatís been happening since the beginning of sports.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 10:36:14 am »

It going to get worse before it better.
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GuvHog

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2018, 10:41:16 am »

Except, usually they do know the rules, and it is the fans lack of knowledge of the rules that makes it seem like the ref did not get something right. We do spend time studying, going to camps, reading case books, watching videos.

So many things have become myths among fans. Baseball -" The hands are part of the bat " - partially true. The hands are part of the bat - WHEN a batter swings. If the batter is trying to avoid a pitch, then the hands are part of the body. Football - " You can't block in the back " Again, partially true. You CAN block in the back in the free blocking zone. And my all time favorite comes from basketball - " OVER THE BACK!!! " There is no such violation. You can have a push from behind if the player dislodges another from their position, but simply jumping up and reaching over a player from behind is not a violation. I bet over the back gets yelled 100 times in a basketball game.

But none of that speaks to the issue addressed in the article I cited. The way referees are treated is having an impact on the games because officials, either good or bad, are leaving the jobs and being replaced by new officials with no experience at all IF replacements can be found at all.

During HS baseball season, I could literally work games 6 days a week. There was a day 3 weeks ago, I had a game for my main association, and I got called by 3 others assignors who could not find enough guys to fill all their games. 

A lot of people misunderstand the "Over the Back" thing. Reaching over the back isn't a violation as long as there is no body contact. If there is body contact then it is a foul. I had it wrong myself for a long time until I was taught it correctly by some retired High School officials.
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cincokids

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2018, 11:50:55 am »

Youth baseball is just as bad.
We had a mom of a 9 yr old player follow the umpires into the umpire room after the game last season just raking them up and down because she was convinced they were cheating their team.  Yeah, some teenage high school kids are cheating for a specific team in a 9 yr old rec league baseball game.
Parents ruin the whole thing, they're freakin' crazy these days.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2018, 11:59:05 am »

Do fans really get to you in football? I can see in an enclosed basketball arena how that could be awful...but football is outside on a big field. I would figure the sneers from the stands would drown out.

Coaches barking at refs is nothing new, Iím gonna assume thatís been happening since the beginning of sports.

I give HS and JRHS coaches a lot of leeway because they are doing their jobs, and they USUALLY know how to argue, they know the line.

Football is not a big deal, for me, but I usually run back judge or chains. The football thing is mainly due to a lack of white hats because no one stays in it long enough to get the experience to run a crew.

A lot of people misunderstand the "Over the Back" thing. Reaching over the back isn't a violation as long as there is no body contact. If there is body contact then it is a foul. I had it wrong myself for a long time until I was taught it correctly by some retired High School officials.

There can be contact, just not displacement.

Youth baseball is just as bad.
We had a mom of a 9 yr old player follow the umpires into the umpire room after the game last season just raking them up and down because she was convinced they were cheating their team.  Yeah, some teenage high school kids are cheating for a specific team in a 9 yr old rec league baseball game.
Parents ruin the whole thing, they're freakin' crazy these days.

My sons both ump in our local youth league, so yea I have seen stuff like that way too often. 

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Malvin

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2018, 01:37:10 pm »

I don't have kids so I've been away from youth sports for a long time (played when I was young).  2 years ago we were invited to a friends little league baseball game.. basically we were going out afterwards so we went to watch the game to kill time.  I was absolutely shocked by how the parents were acting, the yelling and screaming was brutal and this was for kids who were still learning how to throw a baseball (very young).

Seriously, this was at a age where when the ball leaves the kids hand you probably have a 50% chance of it going the right direction.. so the game is more of a comedy than a sport.  Parents should be encouraging their kids and having fun with them, what I saw was parents were yelling at the kids negatively and you could see the result of that on the field.. none of the kids were having fun.

After seeing that I don't think you could pay me $50 an hour to go out there and deal with it.

 
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2018, 02:07:32 pm »

I can see this in basketball they are and have always been the very worst of referrees.  Sometime I think the only way a ref survives is if they just donít care if anyone knows they are biased towards certain teams.  Iím sorry but you donít miss calls that benifit one team 75/25.  If that IS happening the head official should make adjustments just like we expect a coach to make adjustments. 

Just like in this game tonight, you guys think WE grab and hold a lot, both these teams put us to shame and the refs arenít calling half what the SEC refs call in our games.  And itís not anywhere close to the same game to game in the SEC regardless of who is playing. 

These refs come up through the ranks and they learn their bad practices from the very start from other bad refs.  We need a national system weíre they are taught and graded by an independent entity outside the power of a single conference.   If you want to progress through the ranks from high school to college to pros then there should be some benifit to a higher level of integrity in your game. 

This is a career you can get involved in at the lowest levels right out of high school but you should at least attend some sort of training at a local Jr college with some online work.  Under the right circumstances you would have plenty of candidates.   Now, even with all that in this day and age you probably still need police at most sporting events ready and willing to throw fans out of the arena.

Instead of being on here  complaining about how bad refs are maybe you should be out there refereeing yourself.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2018, 02:46:36 pm »

I don't have kids so I've been away from youth sports for a long time (played when I was young).  2 years ago we were invited to a friends little league baseball game.. basically we were going out afterwards so we went to watch the game to kill time.  I was absolutely shocked by how the parents were acting, the yelling and screaming was brutal and this was for kids who were still learning how to throw a baseball (very young).

Seriously, this was at a age where when the ball leaves the kids hand you probably have a 50% chance of it going the right direction.. so the game is more of a comedy than a sport.  Parents should be encouraging their kids and having fun with them, what I saw was parents were yelling at the kids negatively and you could see the result of that on the field.. none of the kids were having fun.

After seeing that I don't think you could pay me $50 an hour to go out there and deal with it.

 

What scares me is, if they will yell at their kids like that in public, what do they do to them in private?

T-ball is the worst for that, T-BALL 5 & 6 yr olds!
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hawgwash

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2018, 03:26:01 pm »


"Finley believes there's a simple two-step solution. Parents need to behave better, and those who think they can do better should sign up to become officials.

"If it was so easy anyone could do it, put on a whistle, go to training, and we'd love to have you come into the fraternity or sorority of officials and you can see it's not as easy as it looks,'' he said."

Always needing referees! Get in the game! You won't know how much you'll like it until you give it a try.

I think this is the best and most important part of the article.  I umped baseball and softball when I was in high school and college.  It's a great experience for learning how to make decisions and remain poised under stress.  And also how to deal with upset and irrational people.  It will give you a lot of empathy for the officials in any sport.  They are not perfect, same as the players, fans, and coaches, but are almost 100% unbiased.  And they almost always know the rules better than the players, parents, fans, and volunteer coaches.  Seriously, if you've ever complained that the refs or umps "cheated" you or your team out of a game, give officiating a try!
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PintailKiller

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2018, 03:35:51 pm »

What scares me is, if they will yell at their kids like that in public, what do they do to them in private?

T-ball is the worst for that, T-BALL 5 & 6 yr olds!

Got a buddy that calls USSSA games - he got physically attacked a couple of weeks ago and pressed charges against a parent.  USSSA suspended him for pressing charges. This is why they are leaving the sport.  So much for standing behind your umps.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2018, 06:34:52 am »

Instead of being on here  complaining about how bad refs are maybe you should be out there refereeing yourself.

I thought that was sorta to point of the OP.   But no thanks, I travel too much as it is. 

By the way I think itís very telling when your comeback is the reaction to the truth.  Donít like it YOU go do something about it and then write us a book about your heroics.  There is nothing new about bad refereeing, getting your bad calls plastered all over the internet s whatís new.  There is a reason not to like that. LOL!
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 07:24:52 am »

I thought that was sorta to point of the OP.   But no thanks, I travel too much as it is. 

By the way I think itís very telling when your comeback is the reaction to the truth.  Donít like it YOU go do something about it and then write us a book about your heroics.  There is nothing new about bad refereeing, getting your bad calls plastered all over the internet s whatís new.  There is a reason not to like that. LOL!

I have no problem with refs so I donít need to do something about it. My deal is IF someone has a problem or issue with anything then instead of complaining then they need to do something to change it besides just complaining.  Also show me in this thread where you think I posted a book.
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BigSexyHog

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 08:00:00 am »

I see this first hand all the time living in Dallas.  Matter of fact one of the kids we are recruiting his Dad and other parents are way out of control at games.  One of the dad's is so fat it takes him 10 mins to walk up the stairs but listening to him bitch about the refs you would think he invented the game.  It gets old listening to these people in the stands.  Of course the refs blow calls but its not like they are perfect.  They deserve better treatment that's for sure
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oldbear

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 08:08:12 am »

After having played, patented, coached and officiated to some extent, there is enough blame to be had on all sides. Parents are horrible sometimes. Kids are more arrogant and mouthy than ever. Coaches at a low level, think they are playing for the world series. And some officials think it's all about them.

The best officials I have seen and dealt with, as a general rule play like nothing in the stands affects them. The worst ones get upset if someone in the back row whispers that something was a questionable call. When officials have big ears, it encourages fans and coaches to be more vocal.

I've done it intentionally to officials so as to gain an advantage. Yes it backfires sometimes but more often not. An official really can control a game more than they think. Reacting correctly to criticism is the best way to control it. I'm not talking allowing vulgarity or abuse of a child. However picking at an official to some extent should be ok. I have literally seen a home plate umpire threaten to throw me out for standing near home plate and discussing the strike zone in a normal voice behind the fence. I told him to turn and around and call the game. It was juvenile.

Our society today is too darn sensitive. This is just one more area where that is very true.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 08:17:06 am »


 However picking at an official to some extent should be ok.


Can I come to your job and pick at you, to some extent? Would that be ok?
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 08:19:19 am »

Got a buddy that calls USSSA games - he got physically attacked a couple of weeks ago and pressed charges against a parent.  USSSA suspended him for pressing charges. This is why they are leaving the sport.  So much for standing behind your umps.

In Arkansas, contact with an official is a felony. Was it the state USSSA director or USSSA national that suspended him? I work tourneys in Ar and Ok and have never seen anyone from USSSA not back the umpires. Not saying it did not happen, but I wonder if there is more to the story.
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BigSexyHog

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 08:33:12 am »

After having played, patented, coached and officiated to some extent, there is enough blame to be had on all sides. Parents are horrible sometimes. Kids are more arrogant and mouthy than ever. Coaches at a low level, think they are playing for the world series. And some officials think it's all about them.

The best officials I have seen and dealt with, as a general rule play like nothing in the stands affects them. The worst ones get upset if someone in the back row whispers that something was a questionable call. When officials have big ears, it encourages fans and coaches to be more vocal.

I've done it intentionally to officials so as to gain an advantage. Yes it backfires sometimes but more often not. An official really can control a game more than they think. Reacting correctly to criticism is the best way to control it. I'm not talking allowing vulgarity or abuse of a child. However picking at an official to some extent should be ok. I have literally seen a home plate umpire threaten to throw me out for standing near home plate and discussing the strike zone in a normal voice behind the fence. I told him to turn and around and call the game. It was juvenile.

Our society today is too darn sensitive. This is just one more area where that is very true.

Well aren't you special.  Think I will come down to your work and heckle you all day.  I mean you said it yourself its perfectly ok to heckle someone at his/her job and that you are a cool cat and a big dog that is uber cool and special.  What a loser.

Bet you don't know 99% of what you think you know.....
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BigSexyHog

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 08:35:12 am »

After having played, patented, coached and officiated to some extent, there is enough blame to be had on all sides. Parents are horrible sometimes. Kids are more arrogant and mouthy than ever. Coaches at a low level, think they are playing for the world series. And some officials think it's all about them.

The best officials I have seen and dealt with, as a general rule play like nothing in the stands affects them. The worst ones get upset if someone in the back row whispers that something was a questionable call. When officials have big ears, it encourages fans and coaches to be more vocal.

I've done it intentionally to officials so as to gain an advantage. Yes it backfires sometimes but more often not. An official really can control a game more than they think. Reacting correctly to criticism is the best way to control it. I'm not talking allowing vulgarity or abuse of a child. However picking at an official to some extent should be ok. I have literally seen a home plate umpire threaten to throw me out for standing near home plate and discussing the strike zone in a normal voice behind the fence. I told him to turn and around and call the game. It was juvenile.

Our society today is too darn sensitive. This is just one more area where that is very true.

Also sounds like someone trying to remember all those times he rode the bench and cried to mommy cause he didn't get a chance to play.   
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2018, 01:13:17 pm »


I have literally seen a home plate umpire threaten to throw me out for standing near home plate and discussing the strike zone in a normal voice behind the fence. I told him to turn and around and call the game. It was juvenile.


Ah, you are one of my favorites at baseball games. Cant sit in the stands with the rabble, got to stand behind the plate and act like you are the ump. Then you get everyone riled up by telling them the ump is squeezing their guy or giving the other guy pitches, in your opinion. Thankfully, many parks, especially youth league complexes, are banning people from sitting/standing behind home plate. Again, you want to call balls and strikes, put on some gear big boy and show us all how great you are at it.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2018, 01:16:37 pm »

Can I come to your job and pick at you, to some extent? Would that be ok?

Do you have a vested interest in his job performance?  That would be as a direct boss or owner of the company, otherwise no you canít.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2018, 01:20:50 pm »

Do you have a vested interest in his job performance?  That would be as a direct boss or owner of the company, otherwise no you canít.

Which is why I will give a PAID COACH a lot of leeway, fans living vicariously through kids, not so much.

And for the record. I have never given a coach a T in basketball, never flagged one for unsportsmanlike in football, and never tossed a HS coach in baseball. I've tossed maybe 5 USSSA coaches, 2 in youth league ( one of which put his hands me and I should have had him arrested for it ), and one fan at a youth league game.
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PorkRinds

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2018, 01:27:20 pm »

Only thing worse than little league refs are SEC refs and little league parents.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2018, 01:30:21 pm »

Only thing worse than little league refs are SEC refs and little league parents.

And then one rung further down is guys on message boards with avatars of a dude in sunglasses in a lawn chair, wearing knee high white socks and holding a gun.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2018, 01:24:52 pm »

It a sad deal .
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311Hog

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2018, 01:29:35 pm »

yeah my experience being a ref was a real eye opener.  I have to say that it really changed me as a person and i found a new found respect for the profession. You know what they say, walk a mile in another man's shoes etc.

It is not nearly as easy as it looks, and the people omg the people can be insanely awful.  Had a kids dad try and fight me at a boys and girls club game for little kids they didn't even play on a full field because he was mad that the other team's "big" kid was allowed to play (although he had to play different positions he couldnt be QB the whole time).

I mean jeering a ref is part of the game, yelling obscenities that would make a sailor blush at a game populated by kids whos age is in the single digits is just sad and pathetic.

Sanity is right it is almost always 100% parents "living" through their kids.  They act like their kid is just days away from signing with an agent to play in the league.
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PorkRinds

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2018, 01:36:42 pm »

And then one rung further down is guys on message boards with avatars of a dude in sunglasses in a lawn chair, wearing knee high white socks and holding a gun.

That guyís one rung above butt hurt refs who make terrible arguments on the internet. Itís not my fault if you donít recognize an American treasure.
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oldbear

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2018, 01:52:31 pm »

Ah, you are one of my favorites at baseball games. Cant sit in the stands with the rabble, got to stand behind the plate and act like you are the ump. Then you get everyone riled up by telling them the ump is squeezing their guy or giving the other guy pitches, in your opinion. Thankfully, many parks, especially youth league complexes, are banning people from sitting/standing behind home plate. Again, you want to call balls and strikes, put on some gear big boy and show us all how great you are at it.

I guess you missed the part where I said I have been behind the plate.  It's a very tough job.  I had good games and bad games.  All are human and sometimes you aren't on your game.  I do believe some officials in sports are way too sensitive.  In some jobs you know going in that you are going to get criticism.  I have had umps look at me and say, "I missed it."  I respect those guys.  I have also talked to umps after tournaments and games and told them what great professionals they were on the field. 

Several years ago I sat in the stands at ASA Southern Nationals and was quietly watching but was flinching at times because an ump was squeezing the strike zone so badly.  The guy across the aisle from me saw me reacting and we ended up having a great conversation.  He happened to be supervising and evaluating the umps and he told me he was going to have a conversation with the guy behind the plate. 

Maybe my comment about umps being oversensitive struck a chord with you.  I don't know.  I get critiqued in my job often.  I hope I try to use it to get better.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2018, 02:02:50 pm »

I guess you missed the part where I said I have been behind the plate.  It's a very tough job.  I had good games and bad games.  All are human and sometimes you aren't on your game.  I do believe some officials in sports are way too sensitive.  In some jobs you know going in that you are going to get criticism.  I have had umps look at me and say, "I missed it."  I respect those guys.  I have also talked to umps after tournaments and games and told them what great professionals they were on the field. 

Several years ago I sat in the stands at ASA Southern Nationals and was quietly watching but was flinching at times because an ump was squeezing the strike zone so badly.  The guy across the aisle from me saw me reacting and we ended up having a great conversation.  He happened to be supervising and evaluating the umps and he told me he was going to have a conversation with the guy behind the plate. 

Maybe my comment about umps being oversensitive struck a chord with you.  I don't know.  I get critiqued in my job often.  I hope I try to use it to get better.

I laugh inside at 95% of the stuff I actually hear from the stands because it is usually so stupidly wrong ( basketball is the easiest to hear things due to proximity ) but on the baseball or football fields it is all just kind of a jumble of noise to me.

I just think it is odd that no one goes to any other workplace and thinks it is acceptable to "pick at" the people working. You would not go do that at a DR office or the dentist or to a accounting firm or an architect, etc. But some guy who probably drove 45 mins to an hour to get there, is getting paid MAYBE $20 and hour, with no mileage, maybe gets a bottle of water and a candy bar to eat, has to wait 10+ days for his check, yea, for some reason it's ok to ride his as^ for 2 or 3 hours. 
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oldbear

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2018, 03:29:40 pm »

I laugh inside at 95% of the stuff I actually hear from the stands because it is usually so stupidly wrong ( basketball is the easiest to hear things due to proximity ) but on the baseball or football fields it is all just kind of a jumble of noise to me.

I just think it is odd that no one goes to any other workplace and thinks it is acceptable to "pick at" the people working. You would not go do that at a DR office or the dentist or to a accounting firm or an architect, etc. But some guy who probably drove 45 mins to an hour to get there, is getting paid MAYBE $20 and hour, with no mileage, maybe gets a bottle of water and a candy bar to eat, has to wait 10+ days for his check, yea, for some reason it's ok to ride his as^ for 2 or 3 hours. 

I don't disagree with you at times.  It gets entirely out of hand.  Parents and some coaches are horrible.  In the time I did basketball, I t'ed up one coach.  In baseball, my partner and I ejected one coach who was cursing a player.  I actually had fun with most of the parents who were sitting behind home plate.  Early on they were getting on to me pretty good and I took my glasses off and offered them to them.  I told them they needed more help than I did.  They continued to pick after, but it was more fun. 

I coached softball on the field for 15 years.  I have seen really good umps and really bad ones.  I saw the guy I coached with walk onto the field to talk to an ump and heard the entire conversation.  The coach never raised his voice and never cursed.  He wanted an explanation for a call.  The ump took it personally and started poking my friend in the chest.  On the other end of the spectrum, I have umps who called many games for us that still call me for help with things. 

One friend of mine that umpired high school and college softball told me a few years ago that he wished more umpires would worry about what happens inside the fence and not outside as long as what goes on outside is not vulgar or abusive.  Whenever I walked into a game he was umping I would always tell him his strike zone sucks.  We had a great time.  I stand by what I said earlier.  All of society is too sensitive today.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2018, 03:33:43 pm »

WE need the Law at these games and have a few parents took down town and fined a few hundred bucks and this mess would settle down.
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oldbear

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2018, 08:58:29 am »

I actually don't agree that police officers being there would make it a lot better. I think having more parents and coaches telling their peers that some things just aren't allowed would be much more effective.

Yes, it is getting to the point that we are going to have to have law enforcement there, but a lot of us could work on ourselves and influence others so that police can be out doing actual police work and not babysitting.

I believe you should coach kids to play hard, but the best way to maximize their output is through encouragement. I often look back at how I could have done better in the past and now try to put it into play in my interaction with high school athletes. It's really very effective.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2018, 10:07:21 am »

In the sense of fairness, I have to say I had three great baseball games this week. Fans were really good, very knowledgeable about the game, coaches were good. Had a couple calls that had to be discussed, and it was done calmly, even though they did not always agree with the outcome. One game was for a school I had never worked before, and after the game the coach went out of his way to speak to us and complemented us, even though he had just lost a heart breaker.

My concern is not with guys like me, I'm in my late 40's and I know how to handle coaches and fans. No, my concern and the concern of the article I posted, is more for the 20 yr olds just starting out. We need those officials to stick with it, but they are the ones that just do not want to put up with the abuse, so what we have is a profession with almost no middle. Guys like me, who have been in it for year and are only getting older, then a revolving door of 20 yr olds every year who stay a yr, maybe two, then they leave and a new crop of green 20 yr olds come in.
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311Hog

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2018, 10:11:21 am »

referees do not get paid enough to be some jack holes therapy/catharsis.  Allot of money in sports, and without referees, good ones the system will break down.
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hawgfan4life

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2018, 10:30:30 am »

hogsanity in a nutshell:

1.  Nobody should EVER complain to or about officials because we are ruining the profession and making it hard for them to fill the ranks.

2.  If it is okay for someone to do so to officials, then it is equally okay for officials to come to the complainers place of employment and do the same.  Hyperbolic example to show it is wrong to do so to officials.

3.  It is okay, expected, and anyone not doing so is just blinded by coach love when it comes to complaining about MA.

4.  He never fails to comment on every thread to defend his beloved officiating profession, make the call for more officials, or take a shot on MA's coaching.

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hawgfan4life

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2018, 10:38:35 am »

In the sense of fairness, I have to say I had three great baseball games this week. Fans were really good, very knowledgeable about the game, coaches were good. Had a couple calls that had to be discussed, and it was done calmly, even though they did not always agree with the outcome. One game was for a school I had never worked before, and after the game the coach went out of his way to speak to us and complemented us, even though he had just lost a heart breaker.

My concern is not with guys like me, I'm in my late 40's and I know how to handle coaches and fans. No, my concern and the concern of the article I posted, is more for the 20 yr olds just starting out. We need those officials to stick with it, but they are the ones that just do not want to put up with the abuse, so what we have is a profession with almost no middle. Guys like me, who have been in it for year and are only getting older, then a revolving door of 20 yr olds every year who stay a yr, maybe two, then they leave and a new crop of green 20 yr olds come in.

Ever think your constant barrage of negative comments about MA is the exact systemic cancer you worry about for officials.  The only difference is it is directed at a coach versus an official.  Please don't site his salary because the cancer that I refer to occurs from little league through the pros whether the coach is a free volunteer or a multimillionaire.  You sir, promote the practice of bashing a coach virtually every post in the basketball forums.  Ever consider the idea of that being socially okay filters down to High School, Junior High, and Youth Leagues?  It does!  You are a part of that problem.  I will start considering your crying a river about officials when you stop complaining about coaches.
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2018, 10:58:53 am »

Ever think your constant barrage of negative comments about MA is the exact systemic cancer you worry about for officials.  The only difference is it is directed at a coach versus an official.  Please don't site his salary because the cancer that I refer to occurs from little league through the pros whether the coach is a free volunteer or a multimillionaire.  You sir, promote the practice of bashing a coach virtually every post in the basketball forums.  Ever consider the idea of that being socially okay filters down to High School, Junior High, and Youth Leagues?  It does!  You are a part of that problem.  I will start considering your crying a river about officials when you stop complaining about coaches.

Only difference is I am not sitting behind the bench saying anything during the game. Although, following your logic, it would be perfectly ok to do so.

hogsanity in a nutshell:

1.  Nobody should EVER complain to or about officials because we are ruining the profession and making it hard for them to fill the ranks.

2.  If it is okay for someone to do so to officials, then it is equally okay for officials to come to the complainers place of employment and do the same.  Hyperbolic example to show it is wrong to do so to officials.

3.  It is okay, expected, and anyone not doing so is just blinded by coach love when it comes to complaining about MA.

4.  He never fails to comment on every thread to defend his beloved officiating profession, make the call for more officials, or take a shot on MA's coaching.



And you never pass up the chance to prove you are the perfect example of the jackwagon 311 was just talking about.
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cc

Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2018, 01:13:56 pm »

I get agrevated with officials that donít know simple rules.  But fans can be worse.  Went to a baseball last night where kid was tagged out by 5 feet.  2nd baseman actually waited and baserunner slide into the tag.  Couple of fans got irate at the ump.  Home plate ump had an inside corner that was a little off the plate but was consistent for both teams.  One of the best called HS baseball games Iíve seen in a while.  They were consistent. 
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hogsanity

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Re: Referee shortage threatens to alter youth sports
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2018, 02:57:02 pm »

I get agrevated with officials that donít know simple rules.  But fans can be worse. 


Officials that do not now simple rules often comes about because there are not enough experienced officials to go around.

I could write a book on the dumb things I have heard in the stands, just while sitting watching my boys play various sports, uttered by fans, but no one would believe I did not make half of it up.
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