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Author Topic: Minute variation by CMA  (Read 3038 times)

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niels_boar

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Minute variation by CMA
« on: March 30, 2018, 05:12:45 pm »

With regards to Hall a common criticism is that CMA "jerks" frosh around by varying their minutes from game to game.  Hall averaged 15 minutes on the season, and his standard deviation in minutes, a measure of variability, was 6.5 minutes.  The ratio of standard deviation to mean is 6.5/15 = 43%.  After the first couple of conference games when Hall got his TO problems under control that dropped to 33% for the remainder of the season.  A higher ratio indicates a larger variability in minutes.

I don't have to go looking very hard to find frosh in similar roles, namely quality depth that averaged double-digit minutes, whose minutes look similar and are even more variable than Hall's.  Of course, some frosh were primary options on their team and got regular starter's minutes.  Other teams ignored their entire freshman class like Barnes at Tennessee.

For an apt comparison to Hall consider Davide Moretti at Texas Tech, who played double-digit minutes in three of Tech's four NCAAT games. His variation in minutes is actually 50%.  Similar results can be found for Nick Richards and Jerrod Vanderbilt at UK, Alex Reese and Herb Jones at Bama, etc.  They all have 35%+ variability in minutes.

You can find plenty of counter examples as well, but it's just not that unusual for developmental freshmen that are lucky enough to get on the court at all to have variable minutes.
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raz1965

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2018, 07:30:48 pm »

So to understand you correctly Hall was given plenty of playing time under the circumstances? Personally I thought so myself.
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From Tusk Till Dawn

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2018, 05:40:10 pm »

With regards to Hall a common criticism is that CMA "jerks" frosh around by varying their minutes from game to game.  Hall averaged 15 minutes on the season, and his standard deviation in minutes, a measure of variability, was 6.5 minutes.  The ratio of standard deviation to mean is 6.5/15 = 43%.  After the first couple of conference games when Hall got his TO problems under control that dropped to 33% for the remainder of the season.  A higher ratio indicates a larger variability in minutes.

I don't have to go looking very hard to find frosh in similar roles, namely quality depth that averaged double-digit minutes, whose minutes look similar and are even more variable than Hall's.  Of course, some frosh were primary options on their team and got regular starter's minutes.  Other teams ignored their entire freshman class like Barnes at Tennessee.

For an apt comparison to Hall consider Davide Moretti at Texas Tech, who played double-digit minutes in three of Tech's four NCAAT games. His variation in minutes is actually 50%.  Similar results can be found for Nick Richards and Jerrod Vanderbilt at UK, Alex Reese and Herb Jones at Bama, etc.  They all have 35%+ variability in minutes.

You can find plenty of counter examples as well, but it's just not that unusual for developmental freshmen that are lucky enough to get on the court at all to have variable minutes.
Super detailed, loved the examples used to bench mark.  Nice job!
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hawgball40

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 07:14:40 pm »

With regards to Hall a common criticism is that CMA "jerks" frosh around by varying their minutes from game to game.  Hall averaged 15 minutes on the season, and his standard deviation in minutes, a measure of variability, was 6.5 minutes.  The ratio of standard deviation to mean is 6.5/15 = 43%.  After the first couple of conference games when Hall got his TO problems under control that dropped to 33% for the remainder of the season.  A higher ratio indicates a larger variability in minutes.

I don't have to go looking very hard to find frosh in similar roles, namely quality depth that averaged double-digit minutes, whose minutes look similar and are even more variable than Hall's.  Of course, some frosh were primary options on their team and got regular starter's minutes.  Other teams ignored their entire freshman class like Barnes at Tennessee.

For an apt comparison to Hall consider Davide Moretti at Texas Tech, who played double-digit minutes in three of Tech's four NCAAT games. His variation in minutes is actually 50%.  Similar results can be found for Nick Richards and Jerrod Vanderbilt at UK, Alex Reese and Herb Jones at Bama, etc.  They all have 35%+ variability in minutes.

You can find plenty of counter examples as well, but it's just not that unusual for developmental freshmen that are lucky enough to get on the court at all to have variable minutes.
What you've said may be true, but if you were 20, and 31 made so many critical errors and mistakes and still started and played 3x as many minutes as you did, you'd probably be pissed too, no?
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outlawhogeywells

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 10:13:23 pm »

What you've said may be true, but if you were 20, and 31 made so many critical errors and mistakes and still started and played 3x as many minutes as you did, you'd probably be pissed too, no?
finally someone said what needed o be said. How come beard got so many min
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hogsanity

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 08:18:36 am »

When I say he jerks them around, i am talking about playing them 3 misn one game then 18 the next. Starting them once or twice, then seeing them play 5 mins the next game. That type of stuff. Or watching them get taken out  after a mistake, then seeing a SR make mistake after mistake and never get pulled.
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Big Nasty 34

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2018, 08:29:46 am »

What you've said may be true, but if you were 20, and 31 made so many critical errors and mistakes and still started and played 3x as many minutes as you did, you'd probably be pissed too, no?

First of all, I can't believe I'm defending PT for Beard, but here goes lol.

Beard did not play 3X as many minutes as Hall, he did play twice as many, true.

Beard averaged 1 turnover per 23.4 minutes with a 2.3:1 A:TO ratio

Hall averaged 1 turnover per 13.3 minutes with a .41:1 A:TO ratio

Anton had the ball in his hands a lot more than Day Day and protected the ball more. I wonder if Hall has the wrong people in his ear telling him he deserves more? One thing that made Villanova so great, is that they had guys stay after not getting much PT as freshmen. They had guys that were bought into the program and winning. That's what you need more than a team full of 5 stars.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 09:17:54 am »

some kids just have the wrong expectations and what everything given to them.. Dont wanna work hard to make their situation better. Instead of getting in the gym and getting better for next year they wanna bail and go to another school because they like what they are hearing from that coach. Its a soft ass world we live in... and i blame the parents unless they have a legit reason for leaving.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2018, 09:21:22 am »

I'll also add this to the discussion. It seems that Mike is either changing his philosophy a bit in terms of playing select guys more minutes, or he has guys worthy of playing more minutes. Over his 6 seasons, the first three seasons no a single person averaged over 30 minutes a game. I remember that being a reason people said we would never get top players because Mike wouldn't play them 30 plus minutes a game. Last year we had 3 play over 30 minutes. In Mike's first three seasons we had 10 guys play over 15 minutes, this year we had 8. So it seems to me as time has gone on Mike has adapted his rotations and you can see him playing about the same number of guys, but a few guys are starting to see more minutes than the top two or three had in the past. That's why a kid like Hall would be best to stay put. The kid is going to be one of our top returnees and he's bound to see a lot of minutes. It just depends on who he is going to listen to. Mike is playing his top guys more.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2018, 09:22:57 am »

some kids just have the wrong expectations and what everything given to them.. Dont wanna work hard to make their situation better. Instead of getting in the gym and getting better for next year they wanna bail and go to another school because they like what they are hearing from that coach. Its a soft ass world we live in... and i blame the parents unless they have a legit reason for leaving.
And it's not the kids fault. It is now because he's a grown man and essentially making this decision for himself. But parents and the current aau climate and transfer climate lends itself to this. It's the way they've been brought up.
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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2018, 09:36:10 am »

I'll also add this to the discussion. It seems that Mike is either changing his philosophy a bit in terms of playing select guys more minutes, or he has guys worthy of playing more minutes. Over his 6 seasons, the first three seasons no a single person averaged over 30 minutes a game. I remember that being a reason people said we would never get top players because Mike wouldn't play them 30 plus minutes a game. Last year we had 3 play over 30 minutes. In Mike's first three seasons we had 10 guys play over 15 minutes, this year we had 8. So it seems to me as time has gone on Mike has adapted his rotations and you can see him playing about the same number of guys, but a few guys are starting to see more minutes than the top two or three had in the past. That's why a kid like Hall would be best to stay put. The kid is going to be one of our top returnees and he's bound to see a lot of minutes. It just depends on who he is going to listen to. Mike is playing his top guys more.

He needs to work out with Qualls. 
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HoopS

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2018, 09:44:17 am »

Beard played because he was our point guard. Surely you all donít think Hall should have logged those minutes. It was obvious many times this season the offense moved better with Beard in. Thatís not to say he didnít make some mistakes. He sure did.  But there were obvious reasons he played. If Hall is mad about that, then by all means, bye. Because that shows a lack of basketball IQ that may be too late to teach.
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BannerMountainMan

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2018, 09:46:22 am »

finally someone said what needed o be said. How come beard got so many min
handle the ball, Hall cannot
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 09:49:08 am »

And it's not the kids fault. It is now because he's a grown man and essentially making this decision for himself. But parents and the current aau climate and transfer climate lends itself to this. It's the way they've been brought up.
Kids want everything handed to them and dont wanna work for anything. Thats learned from the parents. Hes a quitter if he leaves Arkansas point blank. His support system is gonna end up hurting him if they dont step in and help him out.
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hogsanity

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2018, 09:57:46 am »

I'll also add this to the discussion. It seems that Mike is either changing his philosophy a bit in terms of playing select guys more minutes, or he has guys worthy of playing more minutes. Over his 6 seasons, the first three seasons no a single person averaged over 30 minutes a game. I remember that being a reason people said we would never get top players because Mike wouldn't play them 30 plus minutes a game. Last year we had 3 play over 30 minutes. In Mike's first three seasons we had 10 guys play over 15 minutes, this year we had 8. So it seems to me as time has gone on Mike has adapted his rotations and you can see him playing about the same number of guys, but a few guys are starting to see more minutes than the top two or three had in the past. That's why a kid like Hall would be best to stay put. The kid is going to be one of our top returnees and he's bound to see a lot of minutes. It just depends on who he is going to listen to. Mike is playing his top guys more.

As with all of the other "changes" Mike makes, it was due to necessity. He really had no other options at guard. When Barford and Macon were sitting, there were no scorers on the floor.

Hogs still had 10 players average double digit minutes, and of those 10, 9 averaged 14+. It is not like he went from playing 10 or 11 guys a game to playing 6.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2018, 10:13:00 am »

As with all of the other "changes" Mike makes, it was due to necessity. He really had no other options at guard. When Barford and Macon were sitting, there were no scorers on the floor.

Hogs still had 10 players average double digit minutes, and of those 10, 9 averaged 14+. It is not like he went from playing 10 or 11 guys a game to playing 6.
We had 2 guys under 15 and above 10. Those guys were essentially splitting minutes, and also had to step into a role with Thomas in constant trouble because he was unable to follow rules. We only had 8 guys over 15 minutes and 4 over 20. I would agree Mike needs to find a way to have 5 guys that play 25 or more minutes. Especially in SEC play and beyond. In SEC play we had 7 play over 15 minutes, and only 3 over 25. That's the bigger issue. Not that we play 10 guys, it's that we don't have a solid 5 guys that Mike feels comfortable playing 30 minutes.

Of course as soon as he does that, there's a good chance we see a lot of guys transfer out. Nature of the beast I guess.

Against Florida in the SECT we had almost 5 guys with over 25 minutes (Bailey had 24), South Carolina game same thing. When we've beat good teams in tough environments we have had 5 guys that warranted majority of minutes. Mike has to find a way to have 5-6 guys that play 25 plus minutes in big games. Especially games that aren't up tempo. Teams do slow us down, and when they do Mike has to be able to shorten his bench. This I agree with.
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razorback1829

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2018, 10:21:47 am »

We had 2 guys under 15 and above 10. Those guys were essentially splitting minutes, and also had to step into a role with Thomas in constant trouble because he was unable to follow rules. We only had 8 guys over 15 minutes and 4 over 20. I would agree Mike needs to find a way to have 5 guys that play 25 or more minutes. Especially in SEC play and beyond. In SEC play we had 7 play over 15 minutes, and only 3 over 25. That's the bigger issue. Not that we play 10 guys, it's that we don't have a solid 5 guys that Mike feels comfortable playing 30 minutes.

Of course as soon as he does that, there's a good chance we see a lot of guys transfer out. Nature of the beast I guess.

Against Florida in the SECT we had almost 5 guys with over 25 minutes (Bailey had 24), South Carolina game same thing. When we've beat good teams in tough environments we have had 5 guys that warranted majority of minutes. Mike has to find a way to have 5-6 guys that play 25 plus minutes in big games. Especially games that aren't up tempo. Teams do slow us down, and when they do Mike has to be able to shorten his bench. This I agree with.

Not having Garland cleared really hurt us. We only had 3 ball handlers, none of them that were really pass first guards. MA almost had no choice bc those guys had to be out there. Beard still was gonna play 25+ mins, regardless if he came off the bench or not. We were short handed in the guard department. We won't have that problem next year.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2018, 10:25:55 am »

Not having Garland cleared really hurt us. We only had 3 ball handlers, none of them that were really pass first guards. MA almost had no choice bc those guys had to be out there. Beard still was gonna play 25+ mins, regardless if he came off the bench or not. We were short handed in the guard department. We won't have that problem next year.
I hope however even with the added depth that Mike plays certain guys more. I believe in playing more guys, but I also believe when you play better teams you have to shorten your rotation. Against good teams and especially slower paced games we should see the bench shortened and mike only play 8 guys instead of 10 or 11.
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razorback1829

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2018, 10:31:19 am »

I hope however even with the added depth that Mike plays certain guys more. I believe in playing more guys, but I also believe when you play better teams you have to shorten your rotation. Against good teams and especially slower paced games we should see the bench shortened and mike only play 8 guys instead of 10 or 11.

You usually see him really tighten up his rotation during conference play. Usually by then he has an idea who his guys are going to be. But I think he understands having the right people in the games against good teams, especially in close games.

We need the true depth again though so our guys will be able to finish out the season with the same energy and quickness they start with. We looked tired and were a step slow our last couple of games. Would also help with the slow starts and getting in that initial hole.
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SemperFi

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2018, 10:36:30 am »

Is it possible that Hall just doesn't like what he sees in Mike Anderson's complicated dribble, dribble, take ill advised last second shot offense? Maybe he's just using the minutes excuse as just that, an excuse to move on.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2018, 10:37:24 am »

Is it possible that Hall just doesn't like what he sees in Mike Anderson's complicated dribble, dribble, take ill advised last second shot offense? Maybe he's just using the minutes excuse as just that, an excuse to move on.
Haven't heard an excuse from Darious. All "excuses" are assumed or made up.
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#1 STUNNA

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2018, 10:42:15 am »

Haven't heard an excuse from Darious. All "excuses" are assumed or made up.
bingo
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hawgball40

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2018, 03:40:18 pm »

First of all, I can't believe I'm defending PT for Beard, but here goes lol.

Beard did not play 3X as many minutes as Hall, he did play twice as many, true.

Beard averaged 1 turnover per 23.4 minutes with a 2.3:1 A:TO ratio

Hall averaged 1 turnover per 13.3 minutes with a .41:1 A:TO ratio

Anton had the ball in his hands a lot more than Day Day and protected the ball more. I wonder if Hall has the wrong people in his ear telling him he deserves more? One thing that made Villanova so great, is that they had guys stay after not getting much PT as freshmen. They had guys that were bought into the program and winning. That's what you need more than a team full of 5 stars.
Man, i guarantee you nearly any other coach in america would have started macon at the point and hall at the 3. beard doesn't give you anything on either side of the ball that macon and barford can't. hall gives you plenty that beard can't. beard should have been coming off the bench as the primary option for the second unit(tyler ulis anyone?). i mean you give that guy the green light and hope for the best. he's streaky but if he gets hot he can bury the opposing team all on his own. but if he's cold, he'll just waste the shot clock, which gives the coach some time to get a more capable scorer out on the floor. i mean its just common sense. i love beard but his impact has always been neutral at best. for every shot he makes, he makes an errant pass, dribbles around holding the ball too long, takes a bad shot, or gets burnt on defense. Dude has a heart the size of a lion and some usable skills but he's just so unclutch it made my heart hurt just to see him trying so hard only to falter and fall just short.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2018, 05:49:53 pm »

Man, i guarantee you nearly any other coach in america would have started macon at the point and hall at the 3. beard doesn't give you anything on either side of the ball that macon and barford can't. hall gives you plenty that beard can't. beard should have been coming off the bench as the primary option for the second unit(tyler ulis anyone?). i mean you give that guy the green light and hope for the best. he's streaky but if he gets hot he can bury the opposing team all on his own. but if he's cold, he'll just waste the shot clock, which gives the coach some time to get a more capable scorer out on the floor. i mean its just common sense. i love beard but his impact has always been neutral at best. for every shot he makes, he makes an errant pass, dribbles around holding the ball too long, takes a bad shot, or gets burnt on defense. Dude has a heart the size of a lion and some usable skills but he's just so unclutch it made my heart hurt just to see him trying so hard only to falter and fall just short.
Macon is not a point and there are a lot of coaches in america that would not have played Macon at the 1. Never seen a kid pass up throwing the ball into the post when his teammate had position the way Macon did. I yelled more at the tv this year to throw it in the post than I ever had.
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hog.goblin

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2018, 06:26:24 pm »

Is it possible that Hall just doesn't like what he sees in Mike Anderson's complicated dribble, dribble, take ill advised last second shot offense? Maybe he's just using the minutes excuse as just that, an excuse to move on.

It's possible Hall isn't going anywhere
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HoopS

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2018, 06:40:54 pm »

Man, i guarantee you nearly any other coach in america would have started macon at the point and hall at the 3. beard doesn't give you anything on either side of the ball that macon and barford can't. hall gives you plenty that beard can't. beard should have been coming off the bench as the primary option for the second unit(tyler ulis anyone?). i mean you give that guy the green light and hope for the best. he's streaky but if he gets hot he can bury the opposing team all on his own. but if he's cold, he'll just waste the shot clock, which gives the coach some time to get a more capable scorer out on the floor. i mean its just common sense. i love beard but his impact has always been neutral at best. for every shot he makes, he makes an errant pass, dribbles around holding the ball too long, takes a bad shot, or gets burnt on defense. Dude has a heart the size of a lion and some usable skills but he's just so unclutch it made my heart hurt just to see him trying so hard only to falter and fall just short.
No.
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hawgball40

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2018, 07:17:14 pm »

Macon is not a point and there are a lot of coaches in america that would not have played Macon at the 1. Never seen a kid pass up throwing the ball into the post when his teammate had position the way Macon did. I yelled more at the tv this year to throw it in the post than I ever had.
If what you say is true, why was macon our primary ball handler, even with beard on the floor? also, why did most of our big plays happen when macon got the ball to Gafford in the post. Your definition of wide open is a funny one too. Macon often looked to get Gafford the ball, but Gafford was face guarded by players with length and a hand in his face, and macon wisely avoided it. Bear in mind, the game winning play vs Tenessee was a beatiful pick and roll between macon and gafford.
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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 08:35:43 pm »

One of the talking heads on ESPN called his substitution style "unorthodox". I thought that was a very kind way to put it.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 09:24:10 pm »

If what you say is true, why was macon our primary ball handler, even with beard on the floor? also, why did most of our big plays happen when macon got the ball to Gafford in the post. Your definition of wide open is a funny one too. Macon often looked to get Gafford the ball, but Gafford was face guarded by players with length and a hand in his face, and macon wisely avoided it. Bear in mind, the game winning play vs Tenessee was a beatiful pick and roll between macon and gafford.
Barford was our primary ball handler, I have no idea what team you were watching.

Am I taking crazy pills?
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rzrbackramsfan

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 09:36:08 pm »

Barford was our primary ball handler, I have no idea what team you were watching.

Am I taking crazy pills?

I kind of thought Macon was the primary handler.  It's pretty close though between Beard Barford and Macon though. 
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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2018, 12:35:24 am »

Barford was our primary ball handler, I have no idea what team you were watching.

Am I taking crazy pills?
eh, i saw barford as more of our primary ball handler only in iso situations, when we was trying to create for himself or draw some attention to get a team mate a bit of daylight. i don't recall him looking to pass or penetrate in order to create for others so much, but i could be wrong.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2018, 08:45:15 am »

eh, i saw barford as more of our primary ball handler only in iso situations, when we was trying to create for himself or draw some attention to get a team mate a bit of daylight. i don't recall him looking to pass or penetrate in order to create for others so much, but i could be wrong.
Barford definitely didn't have as many assists as Macon but Barford ran the point more than any other guard which would make him our primary ball handler. Macon led us in assists, but it wasn't all that impressive. As a matter of fact Macon had less assists than my high school starting freshman point guard and we played 5 less games. Not to mention we averaged beating teams by over 30 points. He averaged at best 20ish minutes a game. For us to argue over who was the best facilitator is stupid because we didn't really have someone that created shots for others. This group was the worst in terms of sharing since BJ Young was here. I hope to see things change a bit with Harris and other guards running the show. Love Macon and Barford but them coming back was all about them trying to make an NBA roster. Hopefully next year we are a much selfless team.
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razorback1829

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2018, 09:08:14 am »

Barford definitely didn't have as many assists as Macon but Barford ran the point more than any other guard which would make him our primary ball handler. Macon led us in assists, but it wasn't all that impressive. As a matter of fact Macon had less assists than my high school starting freshman point guard and we played 5 less games. Not to mention we averaged beating teams by over 30 points. He averaged at best 20ish minutes a game. For us to argue over who was the best facilitator is stupid because we didn't really have someone that created shots for others. This group was the worst in terms of sharing since BJ Young was here. I hope to see things change a bit with Harris and other guards running the show. Love Macon and Barford but them coming back was all about them trying to make an NBA roster. Hopefully next year we are a much selfless team.

Macon could've averaged 6-7 assists a game if he just would've simple thrown the lob to Gafford consistently off the pick and roll. He did a couple of times like the go ahead bucket against Mizzou, but it was there A LOT. Barford never really looked to pass. He was all about buckets.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2018, 09:10:51 am »

Macon could've averaged 6-7 assists a game if he just would've simple thrown the lob to Gafford consistently off the pick and roll. He did a couple of times like the go ahead bucket against Mizzou, but it was there A LOT. Barford never really looked to pass. He was all about buckets.
Agree on both accounts.
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zebradynasty

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2018, 09:25:42 am »

IF...and it is a BIG IF Hall is wanting to transfer it will not be because he thinks he should have gotten more playing time. A freshman on a team with 7 seniors expecting to play 20 plus minutes is not someone we need. I think everyone agrees Hall had a very solid freshman season. Not saying he should make the SEC-Freshman team his skill level was not there. He has the opportunity next season to command as much playing time as he can stand! So IF he is thinking about transferring I believe it because of issues other than playing time.
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zebradynasty

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2018, 09:34:03 am »

I might be the only one that doesn't think Macon and Barford were selfish players. These guys were scorers that is why we recruited them! I was never under the illusion that they would become offensive facilitators. The reason they were sought after in JUCO was because they could score otherwise no major college would have offered. So in my mind they are who we thought there they were! :D Pass first has never and will never be their mentality.

That being said...yes I agree they both should and could have passed the ball more!
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razorback1829

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2018, 09:41:37 am »

I might be the only one that doesn't think Macon and Barford were selfish players. These guys were scorers that is why we recruited them! I was never under the illusion that they would become offensive facilitators. The reason they were sought after in JUCO was because they could score otherwise no major college would have offered. So in my mind they are who we thought there they were! :D Pass first has never and will never be their mentality.

That being said...yes I agree they both should and could have passed the ball more!


One would think to make it where they want to (NBA) they would try to develop other skills such as making the team around them better. They were talented scorers though. Won a lot of games for us. But this coming team might be Mikes most unselfish. JUCO players and transfers more than likely bring a lot of baggage and personalities that are more "seasoned".  Could be a good or bad thing. I like the makeup of this team next year though.. together, humble and hungry bunch.
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azhog10

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2018, 10:39:19 am »

I might be the only one that doesn't think Macon and Barford were selfish players. These guys were scorers that is why we recruited them! I was never under the illusion that they would become offensive facilitators. The reason they were sought after in JUCO was because they could score otherwise no major college would have offered. So in my mind they are who we thought there they were! :D Pass first has never and will never be their mentality.

That being said...yes I agree they both should and could have passed the ball more!
Agree it's not their mentality which is why I'm saying they aren't true PGs. Next year we will have at least one true point and our offense should flow a bit better because of it. We may not score as much as Macon and Barford made a lot of tough shots, but they were tough shots because they chose it to be that way.
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zebradynasty

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2018, 11:05:21 am »



One would think to make it where they want to (NBA) they would try to develop other skills such as making the team around them better. They were talented scorers though. Won a lot of games for us. But this coming team might be Mikes most unselfish. JUCO players and transfers more than likely bring a lot of baggage and personalities that are more "seasoned".  Could be a good or bad thing. I like the makeup of this team next year though.. together, humble and hungry bunch.

They need to improve the skills that they have...being a better scorer! No NBA team is going to draft them with some notion they might be PG someday. If you haven't develop PG skills by draft time...that means you aren't a PG and if that is what the team needs you as GM move on to another player. NBA teams nowdays can have many scorers not that many PG so Barford and Macon just need to become better scorers.
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roothawg

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2018, 07:53:03 pm »

cooks minutes should of been split between those 2. both were better
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BallHog1

Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2018, 09:09:06 am »

Is it just a millennial thing to expect to get to decide how many minutes you get to play?
Would all of you blaming the coach be supportive if he let the players decide what they would and wouldn't do? He's the coach, he decides who plays and how long. There have been players since the beginning of time who felt they were underused. Some were right and some weren't but regardless, the coach is the coach. Live with or move on. He moved on. Over.
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Corkscrew Johnson

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Re: Minute variation by CMA
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2018, 01:24:51 pm »

With regards to Hall a common criticism is that CMA "jerks" frosh around by varying their minutes from game to game.  Hall averaged 15 minutes on the season, and his standard deviation in minutes, a measure of variability, was 6.5 minutes.  The ratio of standard deviation to mean is 6.5/15 = 43%.  After the first couple of conference games when Hall got his TO problems under control that dropped to 33% for the remainder of the season.  A higher ratio indicates a larger variability in minutes.

I don't have to go looking very hard to find frosh in similar roles, namely quality depth that averaged double-digit minutes, whose minutes look similar and are even more variable than Hall's.  Of course, some frosh were primary options on their team and got regular starter's minutes.  Other teams ignored their entire freshman class like Barnes at Tennessee.

For an apt comparison to Hall consider Davide Moretti at Texas Tech, who played double-digit minutes in three of Tech's four NCAAT games. His variation in minutes is actually 50%.  Similar results can be found for Nick Richards and Jerrod Vanderbilt at UK, Alex Reese and Herb Jones at Bama, etc.  They all have 35%+ variability in minutes.

You can find plenty of counter examples as well, but it's just not that unusual for developmental freshmen that are lucky enough to get on the court at all to have variable minutes.

Hall's minutes should never have been gratuitous minutes to appease his freshman expectations.  He should have gotten minutes because he clearly gave our team a higher ceiling than Beard, and should have seen more game action earlier in the season to prepare him for later.  Practically speaking, you could tell MA was going to live and die with Beard, which he finally figured out was gonna be the latter about 7 minutes into the Butler game when we were down 20.

But if you want to get statistical, statistical...what you miss with averaging large sums of data are things, like, did his minutes skew in games where he got junk minutes in blow out wins or losses?  Up until the Auburn game in January where he finally got some meaningful PT, we had played 8 cupcakes and 6 competitive teams.  He logged just over 5 minutes/game against those competitive teams (we went 3-3).  If he was pissed, that's where it came from.  Now, I don't think you should cater minutes to freshmen just to keep them happy. But as mentioned above, this kid should have been getting action.  And he wasn't a turnover machine like the OP suggested, which would have been a legitimate excuse if it were actually true.  But he had 0 turnovers in 4 of his first 10 games, 1 turnover in 2 others.  Averaged a whopping 1 turnover/game early in the season.  Darious had one of the highest basketball IQs on the team.
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